Why I believe in the death penalty...and you should too!

I always find it interesting how folks think they're quoting the 10 commandments and don't realize that the first five of them boil down to "don't screw around on Jehovah". It isn't until you get to #6 that you have anything you'd want to base a moral or legal code on.

I don't believe God ever murdered anyone.

So he just killed people but didn't murder them?

Copingsaw wrote:
I don't believe God ever murdered anyone.

So he just killed people but didn't murder them?

God is protected by a divine version of the 11th Amendment. He can't be wrong of anything unless he allows himself to be wrong of anything. It's the whole "definition of good" thing.

Rom 13:1-4
1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
(NAS)

Nomad, excuse my bluntness, but that is a convenient copout. There is a huge difference between accepting the decision of authorities as if those were ordained by God (even I has a HUGE argument with that), and standing in the crowd which yells "Kill him! Kill him". This is the case I am talking about.

Mayfield wrote:

I have a cheaper alternative.. drop them off on a deserted island somewhere in the South Pacific. Let them fend for themselves. If they escape they escape, but I don't see it as very likely.

Hey, do you think this is what is happening on the TV show Lost?

I don't know why you would ever give your government the right to have you legally killed.

Here is the auspicious company that the U.S. keeps. An edited partial list of countries that have Capital punishment.

Afghanistan
Botswana
China (People's Republic)
Cuba
Egypt
Ethiopia
Guatemala
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Laos
Lebanon
Libya
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Wow! That's some auspicious company! This is obviously a forward thinking policy! (Please note, my list was edited to exclude tiny or "boring" nations in the interest of brevity only)

The only 1st world nation besides the U.S. on that list? Japan. (Arguably South Korea)

Not one European nation. Not England, not Germany, Not Spain, not Mexico, not Canada, not Australia, Not Belgium, Austria, Poland, Ukraine, Colombia, Costa Rica or Croatia or Vatican City.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Rom 13:1-4
1 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
(NAS)

Nomad, excuse my bluntness, but that is a convenient copout. There is a huge difference between accepting the decision of authorities as if those were ordained by God (even I has a HUGE argument with that), and standing in the crowd which yells "Kill him! Kill him". This is the case I am talking about.

I have a problem with the idea that Pol Pot or Idi Amin are "established by God". That's one seriously f'ed up God to do that.

Belive it or not i'm against the death penelty it's pure and simple murder.
alot of moral problems with it and i don't belive anyone deserves to die

here are the reasons i think the death penalty should be baned everywhere:

- it's immoral to kill a defensless person no matter what that person did.
- i think people that are pro -death penelty are potential murderers because they don't have a problem with killing people.
- the death penelty gives double standards to people by one hand they aren't alowed to kill and on the other hand the gov't is alowed to kill
- death penelty is an easy punishment
- the death penelty turn normal people into murderers in case the person executed was found innocent.

on the other hand i'm pro war- diplomacy never works against our enemies pure and simple beat them up show them not to mess with us and go home. i don't like the fact that the "armed conflict" we got against the palestinians isn't viewd as a war. so our military kills military targets big deal - it's a war and killing the enemy is one of the things you do in it.

I think targeted killing are self defense. israel isn't gonna wait for terrorists to lunch missiles at civilians. we'll make them understand why they shouldn't play with explosives. btw if you haven't noticed israel usually doesn't kill all the terrorists if it's not necessary so the last one alive can tell his friends why they shouldn't mess with the IDF which may prevent them from becoming a terrorists and forcing the IDF to kill them so their families will get money for their death.

btw

Spleen wrote:

Here is the auspicious company that the U.S. keeps. An edited partial list of countries that have Capital punishment.

Afghanistan
Botswana
China (People's Republic)
.
.
.

you are missing israel but only Nazi war criminals can get death penelty for this and i think only one was ever exectuated because of this law. the other was got apealed and pardoned because the judges of the high court thought there was still a doubt ( or they just didn't want to sentence someone to death).

nomraly the only offence someone can get the death penalty for is being a traitor or spy depending on the seriousity of their offence i belive was ever executed for this crime i think vananunu was close to getting it but they thought it was inapropriate and gave him a harsher punishment (like 20 years 11 of them in solitary).

other than that none can get death penalty in israel.

another thing i'd like to mention is the fact that all people that are executed in china are organ doners aspecially to people that have money....

Not one European nation. Not England, not Germany, Not Spain, not Mexico, not Canada, not Australia, Not Belgium, Austria, Poland, Ukraine, Colombia, Costa Rica or Croatia or Vatican City.

Yeah, but that's Old Europe. (kidding!)

Kat, I had no intention of impugning your sense of compassion. I was simply thinking of my current state vs. my pre-child state and noting that there was a difference in my ability to think objectively about the subject. I then (naturally) projected that same quality upon you.

Niseg,

What you've just said is very consistent with what pretty much all of my Israeli friends have said. Are you sure that you aren't of a hive mind?

I often ask my rabbi friend about the death penalty because so many Christians refer back to the Old Testament for biblical justification for it. She's an orthodox by training with a conservative congregation, so she's not taking a liberal/reformed view of things. Rather, instead, she takes a strict almost constructionist view of the law.

Her contention is that the history behind the meting out of capital punishment in Jewish tradition indicates that it was not nearly as common a practice as the Christians would like to believe. The law states pretty clearly that capital punishment was only to be meted out to practicing Jews. Moreover, the punishment could only be delivered if it could be proven with witnesses that the offender was informed not only that the offense was against the law, but that doing so would lead to a death sentance. That's a pretty freaking astronomical legal standard. No wonder there weren't a lot of executions.

buzzvang wrote:
Not one European nation. Not England, not Germany, Not Spain, not Mexico, not Canada, not Australia, Not Belgium, Austria, Poland, Ukraine, Colombia, Costa Rica or Croatia or Vatican City.

Yeah, but that's Old Europe. (kidding!)

Kat, I had no intention of impugning your sense of compassion. I was simply thinking of my current state vs. my pre-child state and noting that there was a difference in my ability to think objectively about the subject. I then (naturally) projected that same quality upon you. ;)

Sure, say what you will. I know you're just trying to guilt me into giving you a grandchild.

A Grandchild? Okay, the Official GWJ "Who's Boinking Who" Soap Opera has gotten too confusing for me. Someone please write me a FAQ.

Paleocon wrote:

Niseg,

What you've just said is very consistent with what pretty much all of my Israeli friends have said. Are you sure that you aren't of a hive mind?

I often ask my rabbi friend about the death penalty because so many Christians refer back to the Old Testament for biblical justification for it. She's an orthodox by training with a conservative congregation, so she's not taking a liberal/reformed view of things. Rather, instead, she takes a strict almost constructionist view of the law.

as far as i understand it says in the bible that a jewish person isn't alowed to kill unless it's something to eat probobly. one of the most important things to jews is human life, and human death (messing with the dead like autopsies is considered a tabu by ultraorthodox people and it makes them go crazy.)

anyways none can really be executed acording to jews because there is no Sanhedrin. it's basicly a high council of 71 wise men that are the only ones with the authority to sentence somoene to death.

Niseg wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Niseg,

What you've just said is very consistent with what pretty much all of my Israeli friends have said. Are you sure that you aren't of a hive mind?

I often ask my rabbi friend about the death penalty because so many Christians refer back to the Old Testament for biblical justification for it. She's an orthodox by training with a conservative congregation, so she's not taking a liberal/reformed view of things. Rather, instead, she takes a strict almost constructionist view of the law.

as far as i understand it says in the bible that a jewish person isn't alowed to kill unless it's something to eat probobly. one of the most important things to jews is human life, and human death (messing with the dead like autopsies is considered a tabu by ultraorthodox people and it makes them go crazy.)

anyways none can really be executed acording to jews because there is no Sanhedrin. it's basicly a high council of 71 wise men that are the only ones with the authority to sentence somoene to death.

completely off topic. When I lived in Taiwan, I was practically tripping over Israeli nationals pretty much every day. Granted, I worked at the World Trade Center and the Israeli security forces were there constantly, but I'd see them practically everywhere I went. They were at my gym, my cigar club, and all the restaurants I ever frequented.

Are there really that many of them there? If so, what's up with that?

I think it's interesting that no one has commented on the fact that in the US, in the last 15 years or so, the murder rate in states without death penalties has consistently been lower than in those with death penalties. Understanding why that is could give us a definitive answer as to the utility or the uselessness of the death penalty.

Is this information of less value than ancient religiously based rules of jurisprudence? If so, why? Especially considering we don't *use* Biblical rules as law anymore...

I think death punishment in South Korea is also only applied these days to enemies and traitors, because they're still at war with DPRK.

P.S. I wonder how would it feel to be an ultraorthodox jewish zombie.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

I think death punishment in South Korea is also only applied these days to enemies and traitors, because they're still at war with DPRK.

P.S. I wonder how would it feel to be an ultraorthodox jewish zombie.

Hmm. It would be kind of difficult to remain kosher.

Prederick wrote:

A Grandchild? Okay, the Official GWJ "Who's Boinking Who" Soap Opera has gotten too confusing for me. Someone please write me a FAQ.

I agree. What-cho talking about woman?

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
Prederick wrote:

A Grandchild? Okay, the Official GWJ "Who's Boinking Who" Soap Opera has gotten too confusing for me. Someone please write me a FAQ.

I agree. What-cho talking about woman?

I meant that buzz was trying to guilt me into spawning, so that I might produce The Grandchild (or every Jewish daughter's reason for living), thus humorously implying, therefore, that buzz was my father, or, in the abscence of blood relation between the two of us, he was being paid large sums of money by said father to guilt me me into producing children.

Apparently, my humor is of such subtle and fragile existence, however, that the mere act of explaining it makes it disappear. Thanks, buckos. You made me murder my joke. Happy?

KaterinLHC wrote:

You made me murder my joke. Happy?

MMM, the sweet blood of humor.

belt wrote:
KaterinLHC wrote:

You made me murder my joke. Happy?

MMM, the sweet blood of humor.

hmm. I don't get it.

KaterinLHC wrote:

Thanks, buckos. You made me murder my joke. Happy?

Ha! We made you give it the Death Penalty! In a thread about the Death Penalty! How Ironic!

Or not.

Robear wrote:

I think it's interesting that no one has commented on the fact that in the US, in the last 15 years or so, the murder rate in states without death penalties has consistently been lower than in those with death penalties. Understanding why that is could give us a definitive answer as to the utility or the uselessness of the death penalty.

Is this information of less value than ancient religiously based rules of jurisprudence? If so, why? Especially considering we don't *use* Biblical rules as law anymore...

OK, I'll comment on it.

Based on the statistics you present, it appears to me that the death penalty is not a detterent to violent crime. As a result, the only reason for the death penalty would be to satisfy some base need we may have for revenge. I guess this could be seen as sufficient justification for the death penalty, especially if supported by your religion of choice.

In any case, let it be known that this conversation here today has swayed my opinion from neutral to being firmly against the death penalty. Sorry Pigpen.

I think it's interesting that no one has commented on the fact that in the US, in the last 15 years or so, the murder rate in states without death penalties has consistently been lower than in those with death penalties.

I don't see the relevance. Perhaps those states implemented the death penalty in the first place because they were higher crime? Lower crime states need less deterence and punishment, so don't have the death penalty. I suprised you're trying to equate the two, very specious reasoning.

Actually, the numbers don't back you on this one. At present, it actually costs more to execute a prisoner than it does to lock him away and forget about him.

That is a bold statement...I'd love to see the figures you base it on.

Nomad, excuse my bluntness, but that is a convenient copout. There is a huge difference between accepting the decision of authorities as if those were ordained by God (even I has a HUGE argument with that), and standing in the crowd which yells "Kill him! Kill him". This is the case I am talking about.

Not sure I understand what you mean. Someone asked what the "Christian" perspective on the death penalty was so I posted a relevant passage. When did I ever infer that I enjoyed watching people die?

I have a problem with the idea that Pol Pot or Idi Amin are "established by God". That's one seriously f'ed up God to do that.

Would you prefer a God who just controlled everyone like little robots, not allowing anyone to choose his/her own actions? If God allows humans to have free will, then some choosing evil is unaviodable.

As for God being f'ed up, a little more respect would be appreciated. Whether you agree with people who believe in Him or not, it is common courtesy not to drop the f-bomb(or its abreviation) when referring to God. Aren't you the one that was trying to show us how Muslims felt about blasphemous cartoons using the American Revolution?

The commandment is "Thou Shall not Murder" and I don't think the state should be in the death business. Just like I'm against abortion I'm against the death penalty....both are taking human life and it's God's job to do that.

Allowing humans free will is one thing, but to state that the folks with boots on your necks are there because god wants them there is, forgive me, a bit screwed up. That seems to be Saul's message and the biblical justification behind the divine right of kings.

It is one thing to say that god(s) endowed humans with free will and that it is up to them to sort things out (including fighting for your rights and deposing a despot by force if necessary). It is an entirely different thing to say that folks like Nero or Pol Pot are there because they are supposed to be and that you should just suck it up and like it in order to be a good Christian.

Sorry if that is disrespectful, but that is more than a little screwed up.

Ulairi wrote:

The commandment is "Thou Shall not Murder" and I don't think the state should be in the death business. Just like I'm against abortion I'm against the death penalty....both are taking human life and it's God's job to do that.

Asserting the Catholic "culture of life" in its entirity I see. At least you're consistant.

Paleocon wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

The commandment is "Thou Shall not Murder" and I don't think the state should be in the death business. Just like I'm against abortion I'm against the death penalty....both are taking human life and it's God's job to do that.

Asserting the Catholic "culture of life" in its entirity I see. At least you're consistant.

I'm not sure if that's a compliment or a slight...;)

I'm keeping my own opinions about some of these subjects safely locked in my mental foot locker but I just want to be the voice the caveat that bringing up abortion in any discusion that isn't specifically about abortion will never help your argument. It is the ultimate conversation killer.

Thou shall not abruptly derail the topic at hand.

Ulairi wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

The commandment is "Thou Shall not Murder" and I don't think the state should be in the death business. Just like I'm against abortion I'm against the death penalty....both are taking human life and it's God's job to do that.

Asserting the Catholic "culture of life" in its entirity I see. At least you're consistant.

I'm not sure if that's a compliment or a slight...;)

Consistency is always a compliment unless I say otherwise.