NFL Draft Day coming!

Any so-called "REAL" football fans anxiously awaiting the second biggest sports weekend of the year?

Lots and lots of stories developing:

* Two "top" QBs who don't compare as draft prospects to the top QB prospects of the past few years (Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Leftwich, Carr), but forecast near the top of the draft due to lack of other "franchise QB" options

* A stunning QB prospect who missed last year's college season due to gambling charges. Went to the Arena league and dominated, despite being the youngest player in the league. Appears to have said and done all of the right things since the gambling issue - character concerns, or just a little bad judgment from a young kid living in NCAA sanctioned poverty?

* Three possible Top-10 running backs (last time ANY RB was taken in the top 10 was 2000 with Jamal Lewis and Thomas Jones) - two from the same school.

* No top OT prospects to be found. One has all the talent in the world, but showed inconsistancy and lack of sufficient motivation in college.

* Superb WR prospect that sat out last year thanks to being bent over and boinked by the NCAA. Was a stud at USC but the year off is a concern

* Maurice Clarett

* Lots of "tweener" DE/3-4 OLB prospects

* An absolute physical freak (6'6", 240 pounds, ran a 4.4 flat 40 at the Combine) that has every scout's jaw on the floor, but played quarterback in college and projects at WR/TE/H-back in the pros. Appears to have every physical skill in the world, and the greatest attitude, but teams are afraid to spend their high draft pick on a player to play a position he hasn't played outside of the Senior Bowl & combine workouts.

* Lots of teams want the next athletic pass-catching franchise tight end, but only one player possibly meets that.

Let''s discuss the draft during our league game, tonight. Say 11PM EST?

I''ve given it some thought and I think ALL sports-related posts should go in the sports area of the forums. Moving now.

Three possible Top-10 running backs (last time ANY RB was taken in the top 10 was 2000 with Jamal Lewis and Thomas Jones) - two from the same school.

Maybe i''m just reading this wrong but I must point out that LT was the fifth overall pick in 2001.

*YAWN*

"Stric9" wrote:

Maybe i''m just reading this wrong but I must point out that LT was the fifth overall pick in 2001.

You''re right. The point I intended to make was the last time multiple RBs went in the top 10, but I got distracted while writing the post and my train of thought got slightly diverted.

"SwampYankee" wrote:

Let''s discuss the draft during our league game, tonight. Say 11PM EST?

Uhmmmmm.... sure, why the hell not.

I''m not one who knows or cares about the desired vertical leap, 40 time, BMI etc, but If I was picking, my first two picks would be David Pollack and Matt Jones. Both have that non stop motor, and both have the knack for making the big play at the crucial moment of the game. ''Course I''m not writing any checks either.

"*Legion*" wrote:
"SwampYankee" wrote:

Let''s discuss the draft during our league game, tonight. Say 11PM EST?

Uhmmmmm.... sure, why the hell not.

Excellent.

I used to be obsessed with the NFL Draft. Then I realized watching teams haggle over players for however long they give them (what is it, 30 minutes?) while listening to Mel Kiper''s increasingly annoying voice perturbs me. I like looking at the results, but as for the actual thing, give me the NBA Draft. Ridiculous suits, booing fans, exceptionally large black men giving all sorts of confusing handshakes to their friends before dwarfing the commissioner and sharing an awkward handshake, the NBA''s got it all too.

Seriously, i''d watch if they gave teams like 8:00 to pick. Instead of the 30:00 that they all use.

Here are a couple of articles that were linked in a Charger forum I frequent. They dicuss the fact that NFL 40 times are a fraud:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...

Edit: Sorry bad links you should be able to see the referenced articles now.

The thing about the whole 40 time argument is the only evidence they have seems to be Ben Johnson ran his first 40 yards in only 4.38 seconds so no one can possible run it faster. While I agree that 40 times are probably not as legit as agents would have you believe I see a few flaws in this argument. Namely if your running 100 meters wouldn''t you save some energy for the end? Or in other words you wouldn''t run the first 40 yards as fast as you could.

Here is an article about Ben Johnson breaking the 100m world record and some quotes I found that were interesting.

The breakdown of each 10 metres time confirms what may seem surprising to the layman, that sprinters cannot go flat out all the way, even over 100 metres.
His fastest stretch was between 40 and 50 metres, which he covered in 0.83sec.

Since 1 yard = 0.9144 meters we can multiply 40y*0.9144m/y = 36.576m. So 36.576 meters is the equivalent distance in meters of the 40 yard dash. Further we can determine based on Ben Johnson''s fastest 10 meters that he ran each meter at his fastest rate at 0.83sec/10m=0.083m/s. Further in the linked article it states that Johnson''s delay from the gun to leaving the blocks was 0.132s.

So then to get Ben Johnson''s 40 time based on him running his fastest 10m portion of the 100m dash we have:

36.576m * 0.083m/s + 0.132s = 3.168 seconds.

Obviously it will take you a bit to accelerate from zero to full speed and a runner may not be able to go out for even the full 40 yards but even if we add a full second to account for those factors the time still comes out to 4.168 seconds which seems reasonable given that NFL players are timed off of their first movement giving them a bit of an advantage.

I''m not saying that this is a valid way to determine the fastest a person could ever run a 40 yard dash but it is as valid if not more so than simply taking the first 40 yards of a 100m dash and using that as your yardstick (pun intended). Also while perhaps these track times are inflated as long as they are a bit inflated for everyone the playing field remains even and no real harm is done. That concludes todays edition of devil''s advocate.

All I can say is that is Carl Peterson doesn''t draft the Chiefs some defensive help, or wheel some deal that gets them some D help, I''m gonna go mental.

"Stric9" wrote:

The thing about the whole 40 time argument is the only evidence they have seems to be Ben Johnson ran his first 40 yards in only 4.38 seconds so no one can possible run it faster. While I agree that 40 times are probably not as legit as agents would have you believe I see a few flaws in this argument. Namely if your running 100 meters wouldn''t you save some energy for the end? Or in other words you wouldn''t run the first 40 yards as fast as you could.

Exactly what argument are they trying to make? That the players are NOT, in fact, running 40 yards and being timed with a stopwatch, despite the fact that hundreds of people witness it? (And thousands at home now, with the combine televised).

"*Legion*" wrote:

Any so-called ""REAL"" football fans anxiously awaiting the second biggest sports weekend of the year?

Lots and lots of stories developing:

* Two ""top"" QBs who don''t compare as draft prospects to the top QB prospects of the past few years (Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Palmer, Leftwich, Carr), but forecast near the top of the draft due to lack of other ""franchise QB"" options

* A stunning QB prospect who missed last year''s college season due to gambling charges. Went to the Arena league and dominated, despite being the youngest player in the league. Appears to have said and done all of the right things since the gambling issue - character concerns, or just a little bad judgment from a young kid living in NCAA sanctioned poverty?

* Three possible Top-10 running backs (last time ANY RB was taken in the top 10 was 2000 with Jamal Lewis and Thomas Jones) - two from the same school.

* No top OT prospects to be found. One has all the talent in the world, but showed inconsistancy and lack of sufficient motivation in college.

* Superb WR prospect that sat out last year thanks to being bent over and boinked by the NCAA. Was a stud at USC but the year off is a concern

* Maurice Clarett

* Lots of ""tweener"" DE/3-4 OLB prospects

* An absolute physical freak (6''6"", 240 pounds, ran a 4.4 flat 40 at the Combine) that has every scout''s jaw on the floor, but played quarterback in college and projects at WR/TE/H-back in the pros. Appears to have every physical skill in the world, and the greatest attitude, but teams are afraid to spend their high draft pick on a player to play a position he hasn''t played outside of the Senior Bowl & combine workouts.

* Lots of teams want the next athletic pass-catching franchise tight end, but only one player possibly meets that.

Is this a trivia game?
1. Aaron Rodgers, Cal and Alex Smith, Utah
2. Pass
3. Carnell ""Cadillac"" Williams and Ronnie ""Hummer"" Brown of Aubrun and Cedric ""I''m not Ricky"" Benson of Texas
4. I''m pretty sure this is some kid from Georgia. ... Edit: Nope. He was from South Carolina and played at Florida State. I knew it was over there somewhere.
5. Mike Williams
6. *cough*bust*cough*
7. N/A
8. Matt Jones, Arkansas
9. Matt Jones, Arkansas. (Ok, I have no idea.)

Last year, I watched the draft while sipping Guiness on the patio of the Hooter''s in Destin, Florida. I''ll be at Jazz Fest this year so I''ll just have to check which defensive end the Saints picked up this year (inside joke, I guess) when I get home.

"Badferret" wrote:

I''m not one who knows or cares about the desired vertical leap, 40 time, BMI etc, but If I was picking, my first two picks would be David Pollack and Matt Jones. Both have that non stop motor, and both have the knack for making the big play at the crucial moment of the game. ''Course I''m not writing any checks either.

SEC fan, eh? Here''s to you.

Edit to avoid the triple-post: If Mel Kiper has Williams on top, why is Braylon Edwards the one everyone is talking about potentially going first (if they don''t take a QB)?

Edit2: Position-by-position analysis at ESPN.com

The Draft is great, I have it on and off all day waiting for ""When all you have is Jim Harbaugh..."" moments.

"Grumpicus" wrote:

Is this a trivia game?

Well it is now!

1. Aaron Rodgers, Cal and Alex Smith, Utah

Yes

2. Pass

Adrian McPherson, Florida State

3. Carnell ""Cadillac"" Williams and Ronnie ""Hummer"" Brown of Aubrun and Cedric ""I''m not Ricky"" Benson of Texas

Yes

4. I''m pretty sure this is some kid from Georgia.

Nope! Alex Barron, Florida State

5. Mike Williams

Yes

6. *cough*bust*cough*

Nope! He''ll be drafted low enough that even making the team will qualify him as a non-bust for his draft spot

7. N/A

Nope! Shawne Merriman, David Pollack, Demarcus Ware, Dan Cody, and others!

8. Matt Jones, Arkansas

Yes

9. Matt Jones, Arkansas. (Ok, I have no idea.)

Nope! Heath Miller, Virginia

Last year, I watched the draft while sipping Guiness on the patio of the Hooter''s in Destin, Florida. I''ll be at Jazz Fest this year so I''ll just have to check which defensive end the Saints picked up this year (inside joke, I guess) when I get home.

I get it - Will Smith, Charles Grant, Darren Howard - 3 in 5 years, it got talked about a lot when Smith was taken last year.

Actually, what I was referring to was 3 in 3 years... though I said DE and meant DL. Howard did go in the 2nd round back in 2000 though... so I know you were right as well... that''s just not the reference I was making.

YEAR PK(OVR) NAME POS SCHOOL
2004 18(18) WILL SMITH DE OHIO STATE
2003 6(6) JOHNATHAN SULLIVAN DT GEORGIA
2002 13(13) DONTE STALLWORTH WR TENNESSEE
2002 25(25) CHARLES GRANT DE GEORGIA

"Grumpicus" wrote:

If Mel Kiper has Williams on top, why is Braylon Edwards the one everyone is talking about potentially going first (if they don''t take a QB)?

Edwards has the least downside. He''s faster, he played on a less star-studded team (meaning he shone more on his own, not because he had a Matt Leinhart throwing the ball, or a Keary Colbert that defenses had to key on also), and he hasn''t been out of the game for a year.

Williams missed a year, and he wasn''t a polished player before he sat out. And at a 4.6 40, he runs closer to a tight end than a top-flight receiver.

When he was considered to be ""in"" for the 2004 draft, he graded out in the bottom of the top 10. He probably would''ve been the pick at #9 instead of Reggie Williams, though Williams is faster and not a ton smaller.

"Grumpicus" wrote:

Actually, that''s 3 in 4 years.

YEAR PK(OVR) NAME POS SCHOOL
2004 18(18) WILL SMITH DE OHIO STATE
2003 6(6) JOHNATHAN SULLIVAN DT GEORGIA
2002 13(13) DONTE STALLWORTH WR TENNESSEE
2002 25(25) CHARLES GRANT DE GEORGIA

Sullivan is not a defensive end. He''s not even close to a DT/DE tweener, he''s over 310 pounds! He''s more like a 3-4 nose tackle playing a 4-3 DT.

Yeah, check my edit. You''re too quick for me.

"*Legion*" wrote:

Edwards has the least downside. ... Williams missed a year, and he wasn''t a polished player before he sat out. And at a 4.6 40, he runs closer to a tight end than a top-flight receiver.

I guess I was really more curious as to why Kiper had him at the top of the board when everyone else is saying otherwise.

"Grumpicus" wrote:

SEC fan, eh? Here''s to you.

You mean they play football in other places? I though that was soccer.

Indeed. And it should also be noted that, while Howard was a 2nd rounder, it was the team''s top pick of that particular draft.

You''d think the Saints D-line would be more dominant. As a Jags fan, the most wonderful recent draft picks were the back-to-back DT first rounders in Marcus Stroud and John Henderson in 2001 & 2002.

So, what are your thoughts about the talk of Red McCombs, after selling the Vikings, buying the Saints and moving them to San Antonio?

"Badferret" wrote:

You mean they play football in other places? I though that was soccer.

Oh yeah? Speaking of SEC....

IMAGE(http://www.economyofeffort.com/images/vandy.jpg)

Well supposedly the rumors are ""preposterous"" but, considering that I want to be in Austin some time in the next five years, I say ""go for it"". Seriously, though, I think it would be a loss for the city. The Superdome, while in serious need of modernization, is a bit of a fixture in the annals of the NFL and I wish we''d get another Super Bowl. We''ve certainly proven that we''re better at it than say, Jacksonville. Of course, there is also talk of the Saints ending up in L.A. so talks of a move are nothing new. Given the current issues with the state vs. Benson, I''d honestly not be suprised if they did leave (though, as I said, it''d be shame).

Personally, I think 32 is a great number of teams for the NFL and so I''d hate for them to get a team in L.A. via expansion but I guess it''d be better than losing our team.

Edit: Added link. Use stuffforflorence@yahoo.com and bugmenot as the userid and password.

When I saw this thread, I thought to myself, ""Legion started this one.""

Exactly what argument are they trying to make? That the players are NOT, in fact, running 40 yards and being timed with a stopwatch, despite the fact that hundreds of people witness it? (And thousands at home now, with the combine televised).

Sorry I messed up the links they should be good now. The jist of the argument seems to be that the forty times from the nfl are not legit because they don''t use automatic timing systems like they do in track and field and Ben Johnson the steroid enhanced record holder for the 100m dash ran the first 40 yards of the race where he broke the world record in 4.38 seconds so how can half the nfl be faster. They make some good points but I think overall the times are relatively correct to other players times in the nfl so it''s not really a big deal.

As for the draft I think it''s damn hard to seperate which players are pure media hype and which ones are real football players. But from what I have read which of course is all Charger draft related I like Shawn Merrimen and hope he''s there at pick number twelve. Also I wouldn''t take Troy Williamson at #12 maybe if he''s left at number 28 but I don''t really like that he didn''t show much on the field and his stock is rising just because of his forty time. I''d rather take Mark Clayton than Williamson from all the things I have read about him the only knock seems to be his size. From what I hear down here the Chargers seem to be high on Marcus Spears and I am not sold on him, all the reports of him dissapearing in games and not giving it his all at times make me wary. I don''t like to get to into the draft before it happens as whoever the Bolts draft i''m gonna root for.

"Stric9" wrote:

The jist of the argument seems to be that the forty times from the nfl are not legit because they don''t use automatic timing systems like they do in track

Except they do use automatic electronic timing systems for ""official"" times at the Combine, although this has not always been the case.

he broke the world record in 4.38 seconds so how can half the nfl be faster.

Well ""half"" is a MASSIVE overstatement. Only two players in Combine history have run in the 4.2 range. A lot of ""legends"" exist about times in the 4.1-something range, but those are from private workouts and probably fudged a little (reminds me of an Arli$$ episode in which, for a Pro Day, Arli$$ cons the coach into chalking out the 40 yard dash area only 38 yards long). Only a selection of players in the league legitimately run below 4.38.

Conditions make all the difference in the world. The point of getting all the prospects to run in the same conditions at the Combine is to get numbers that can be directly compared to each other. No, their times should not be compared to Ben Johnson. Different conditions = different times.

I just want to remind everybody that for 40 times are mostly useless. If needed we could go into the very many reasons why....plasy donl;t go that long on average, stamina is worth more etc etc....

Jerry Rice ran his combine 40 in 4.5-seconds. The best WR and possibly player in NFL history ran an average 40 at best.

As for the draft my 49ers better pick the best player (Edwards, Brown) and not the easist QB to sign.....