GWJFL3: Week 15

Until video football is an 11-on-11 experience, there will always be some element of the game that people feel the computer/AI is not holding up its end of the bargain. If there is a next league, it will use the All Pro difficulty setting... and then you will see truly horrid (ok, I may be exaggerating... slightly) AI.

Legendary setting BAD!

I think the All-Pro setting will be more fun.

And I don''t think 11 on 11 foootball will ever happen. I wouldn''t play a game where I am supposed to block the entire game and never get a chance to touch the ball.

Even if players swapped out each play, it would be a little frustrating to be a WR one play and the ball go to someone else or have your one play at RB stuffed. That would suck.

Spy - look for me around tonight...I''ll be putting in xbox time with the wife, so just message me on xfire/msn/skype when you see me - assuming we can still get a game in...

Highlander, I agree about 11-on-11. I was just making the point that it wil be the only way there is no element of randomness involved. Even if you just let players play the skill positions, the blocking AI will be flawed or the DL will miss obvious tackles or... I''m sure you understand.

This may disqualify me from the ""Good Sport"" award, but I''m completely with Warlock on this. Yes, it is more like real football to have to leave the fate of the game in the hands of your computerized, stat/probability-driven minions and then deal with the sometimes stressful result of that reality. However, it always has been and still is my opinion that that is not a very entertaining way to spend one''s free time.

Realism and entertainment rarely go hand-in-hand. I think we''re seeing in this league that this maxim holds true for a lot of folks. Not to get on a horse or anything, but I do find it a touch ironic that, as a community of laid-back adult gamers, we''re attempting to engage in a prolonged, scheduled sequence of ""realistic"" stat-based games. I won''t speak for anyone else, but this may be why such a large percentage of games go unplayed from week to week.

Where''s that quote from Warren Spector?

That said, I''ve enjoyed the company of those with whom I''ve actually been able to play so far. The games, despite being terribly frustrating at times for a number of reasons, have for the most part been somewhat enjoyable due solely to the quality of the people involved. For that reason alone, I feel that this has so far been time not too horribly misspent.

Don''t take it the wrong way - I had a good time last night, and frankie played a great game. That post wasn''t mean to be a crack against his gameplay or anything of that nature.

If I wasn''t having a good time, I wouldn''t play. I look forward to playing my games each week, and barring scheduling snafus, have been able to do just that. But, I''d be lying if I said there weren''t times when I''ve felt slighted by the game, consistently.

"Highlander" wrote:

And I don''t think 11 on 11 foootball will ever happen. I wouldn''t play a game where I am supposed to block the entire game and never get a chance to touch the ball.

Well, for one, you wouldn''t block the entire game. Unless you like to block on defense.

I would have fun playing left tackle. I imagined a football game like that being similar to an MMORPG, in that you have to ""put your time in"" (level up) on the offensive and defensive lines before you''re allowed to fill skill positions. And then if you''re a trenches purist like me, you can stay on the lines if you want, or play other positions.

Have yet to hear from SquirrelMonkey.

But if it was like REAL (TM) football, you''d need a team of 22 and you would only play offense or defense. (EDIT: Oops, forgot the )

And the TV screens would be on four walls in your living room. And if books were found in your house, the Fire Department would be called so they could burn them.

I think what is kind of wonky about simulated football is that there are 22 guys on the field, and what happens with multiple guys at the same time is important-- you just can''t control everybody important at the same time. So, it''s up to the AI to control those other guys, and while the AI keeps getting better, I don''t think it''s quite up to human intelligence, even the fairly simple human intelligence that''s needed on the football field. I think that''s less of a problem in hockey and baseball, where it is largely one person at a time that determines most of the play (although people who have dealt with MLB 2k5 baserunning may disagree). In football, however, I just don''t see how your skill alone can really control everything that goes on in the play. You have blockers, different coverage schemes, WR routes, and so on-- there''s a lot going on. Too bad, but that''s life.

The other thing that I think irks people is the different levels of the teams. On the one hand, it''s nice to have different qualities in different teams. The Steelers should be about defense, the Pats should have a strong running game, etc. On the other hand, when the background numbers seem to be determining the outcome of the game more than your own input, that gets kind of old. Another thing that has always struck me as bizzare is the tendency for the programmers to exaggerate good players. The Patriots kicker can regularly kick it through the uprights on the kickoff, Vick can throw a 60 yard pass across his body on the run, etc. Dealing with the Superman syndrome is kind of annoying.

For my part, I just joined this league to see if I can actually manage to fit time for this kind of thing in my life. I don''t care if I go 0 and whatever-- it''s just for kicks. If everyone was glitching the AI I wouldn''t be having fun, but that''s not the case here. Is it perhaps unfortunate that sometimes the AI screws up, or the modeling of a play looks bad, or the stats of the guys you go in with are so important? Sure, but that''s the game we have. It''s not ideal, but I''m OK with it.

I think I''ve been interrupted 10 times while trying to write this... Argh! Can''t people see I''m not working here?

I think I de-railed this thread with my 11-on-11 diatribe. Sorry Grump!

I''d play 11 on 11. Except I want to be the punter. Thats it. I''ll just watch and wait, on the sidelines. Check out the cheerleaders, chicks in the stands, you know, root against the offense so I can do my thing. 4th and 24? SWAMPY!

Oh, yeah.

Seriously, I might see fumbles. But most INTs and many (not all) of the ""drops"" people complain about are the result of bad passing into good coverage.

As long as the incidents even out statistically, who cares? I''m for leaving them in. And I have had games turn around for the worse on ""chance fumbles"" and such, too. They are an element of the game for you to deal with, or not.

A lot of you guys are too serious aboot this stuff.

"Highlander" wrote:

I think I de-railed this thread with my 11-on-11 diatribe. Sorry Grump!

No worries, it looks like Certis start a seperate thread, anyway. So how ''bout dem Bears, eh?

Deadline is tomorrow and over half the games are played. Good stuff. Here''s who''s left:

Atlanta @ Tampa Bay
San Diego @ Seattle
Green Bay @ Indianapolis
Washington @ NY Giants

Let''s shoot for 100% completion this week, eh? Good luck all.

Neocell and I plan to get our games for both leagues out of the way this evening.

Thin er Cabbot,

Where is u? It''s 7:00PM Pac and you are not online.

Awesome game Neo. First time I''ve had one that went to overtime. Both of us turning the ball over like we did in OT was crazy.

Most tension filled game I''ve played yet. Great stuff.

League advanced to week 16.

SquirrelMonkey appears to have gone AWOL (last post on Mar 07, 2005 - 05:40 PM) after not actually playing any games. He took over in week 12 where he got an automatic win b/c Warlock hadn''t accepted his league invitation yet and then he was last seen (in the context of the GWJFL, anyway) trying to get Legion to come out and play in week 13. Needless to say, the win goes to Stric9.

It appears that neither baggachipz nor Logan made a public and visible effort to get their game played this week. That being said, I managed to catch Logan on XFire, and he mentioned that baggachipz contacted him to get the game played but that he (Logan) didn''t get around to it due to various reasons. As such, Logan conceded the game to baggachipz.