GWJFL3: Week 11 (New Deadline: 2/23/05)

"Loganrapp" wrote:

Certis and I have our showdown tonight at 6 pm PST, though we can play before or after that. I''ve got nothing going on tonight.

If that was for/to me, it''ll definitely be after that. As a matter of fact, 7 pm PST fits in very nicely with my 9 pm CST start time. I''ll look for you around then but it looks like SpyNavy will only be about a half-hour behind me if I don''t make it. (I''m solo''ing the children tonight until about 10:30 CST, but they should be in bed - and stay there - by the time you and Certis are done.)

I hope I do better next game than I did last night

I felt lucky to have put any points on the board at all last night, much less actually do it twice.

Here''s to playing a good one Psycho. Last night was my first game without throwing an interception, so perhaps I''m doing something better than I was doing it before.

I am available today ..as in right now.

Then M-F 7:00PM -? pac

Weekends by appt.

Quote:
Ain''t no David Garrard this time either, chump!

You mean... you''re going to THROW the ball?

Well Certis there goes your theory about the game adjusting for lack of balance...

In other news my entire Colts D was cut in the other league.

Well Certis there goes your theory about the game adjusting for lack of balance...:)

I don''t think I''ve ever had a theory like that, not even sure what you mean.

*checks crackpot theory list*

Nope, pretty sure that''s not mine.

I surely hope your kidding..

Must be a misunderstanding Neo, I honestly don''t quite understand what you''re talking about. Are you referring to adjusting player ratings or something else?

"Fletcher1138" wrote:

Bloobity Blah blah blah!

So it was you that got the Giants for the other league. That, my friend, is the last straw.

You are now on my list.

I suppose I should say good luck or somesuch other nice comment, but I don''t think I''m going to.

I was just messin but..

Maybe I misunderstood your theory on my WR''s getting ""the drops"" in games. You pointed out that I wasn''t running much since Edge went down and I have been pass happy (not nec your words). Anyhow, I know you also think that the logorithms are taking into consideration other things as well...mood, thrwoing the back foot...etc etc

So what I was getting at ...was I was being penalized by the game for my style of play where as Legion running 50 times and passes zero times was rewarded.

Funny ..against Legion only my TE routinely dropped balls.

Geesh my D couldn''t stop....wish I had a digitial gun durng the game. Maybe Midways upcoming FB title will allow for it....a gun that is.

Needless to say I got an old fashioned butt whipping and thats happening way to much for my likes.

Maybe I misunderstood your theory on my WR''s getting ""the drops"" in games. You pointed out that I wasn''t running much since Edge went down and I have been pass happy (not nec your words). Anyhow, I know you also think that the logarithms are taking into consideration other things as well...mood, throwing the back foot...etc etc

My mentioning your lack of a run game was to point out that in general it''s easier for the other guy to stop you since he just has to drop three safeties back and stick with full pass protection. Does that affect drops? I''m not sure, it might but I was mainly speaking to the human strategy element of it.

For instance, I don''t think the game would look at Legion running constantly and decide to make your defensive players better to force him to pass or anything.

"NeoCell" wrote:

Stuff.

Dude. At least you scored on him more than twice.

As I said elsewhere, by the fourth quarter I had resigned myself to simply hitting the A button until a play was picked each time the choice came up on Defense. No matter what smattering of plays I chose he always continued up the field.

I will note that in my game against Legion, Reggie Wayne was dropping balls left and right on better passes than those that he almost always has caught in past games. Harrison and Pollard did come through a few times, but Wayne who is normally my ""go-to"" guy was generally useless, despite playing him the way I always do. I managed a TD with him, but that was more luck than anything else..

"NeoCell" wrote:

I was just messin but..
So what I was getting at ...was I was being penalized by the game for my style of play where as Legion running 50 times and passes zero times was rewarded.

That''s because you don''t seem to understand run defense.

Here''s a hint: if you put ALL of your players on the line of scrimmage, then if the back gets through the hole, there won''t be anyone back there to make the tackle! A 5 yard run turns into a 70 yard touchdown. Once I got through the line, I usually had about 1 guy to beat. And I''m pretty good at

You spread your linebackers out, you moves your safeties off to the side - you pretty much spread your defense open and said ""run right here, here''s a hole you could drive a truck through"".

As for drops, I think you''re mostly upset at drops that happen to everyone. If the receiver is being closely guarded, he will be far more likely to mishandle the ball. You only had a couple passes where the receiver was free and clear and he dropped it. If you want to get an idea as to what a real ""pass drop"" is, take a look at the play-by-play. Your receivers were credited with four drops - and one of those was by your halfback. The other passes that you think are drops are mishandled balls in coverage. Yes, they look like they''re in the guy''s hands and dropped.

Honestly, I wish to the good lord that I had your amount of drops every game (games that I pass, that is). Against Certis last week, I had 7 statistically credited drops on 30 pass attempts. 4 open drops on 49 attempts would''ve be a damn dream.

Honestly, I wish to the good lord that I had your amount of drops every game (games that I pass, that is). Against Certis last week, I had 7 statistically credited drops on 30 pass attempts. 4 open drops on 49 attempts would''ve be a damn dream.

That game would have been much closer if you had Leftwich, looks like you get a fresh chance this week at least

Here''s a hint: if you put ALL of your players on the line of scrimmage, then if the back gets through the hole, there won''t be anyone back there to make the tackle! A 5 yard run turns into a 70 yard touchdown. Once I got through the line, I usually had about 1 guy to beat. And I''m pretty good at

That explains a lot about the insane amount of big runs. The Bear formation and anything that LOOKS like it is almost pure evil. They seem to be bad for all situations.

As for drops, I think you''re mostly upset at drops that happen to everyone. If the receiver is being closely guarded, he will be far more likely to mishandle the ball. You only had a couple passes where the receiver was free and clear and he dropped it. If you want to get an idea as to what a real ""pass drop"" is, take a look at the play-by-play. Your receivers were credited with four drops - and one of those was by your halfback. The other passes that you think are drops are mishandled balls in coverage. Yes, they look like they''re in the guy''s hands and dropped.

I''ve made similar observations but I didn''t want to say anything in case I was being unreasonable or something. Maybe I''m not alone after all *sniff*

Legion is acerbic as usual but correct. I get burned deep when I blitz the wrong side and use the hated bear, simply because there is no one behind teh line to stop the runner when he has broken through. Especially when you have a weak D Line as I and Indy do, you can''t so that.

"SwampYankee" wrote:

Legion is acerbic as usual but correct.

Who you callin'' arabic?

Anyway, my MS Paint skills should break it down.

Normal 4-3 run defense:

IMAGE(http://www.economyofeffort.com/images/runD.jpg)

The linebackers, being close to the middle and off the line, are able to run towards the running back''s lane, without having to get through traffic. The safeties are even another level deep, and being back there and in space, they''re able to react to the run and make a direct pursuit path before the handoff''s even taken.

Neo''s run defense:

IMAGE(http://www.economyofeffort.com/images/neoD.jpg)

Move everyone up to the line, and the outside linebackers and safeties have to chase from the side and go back upfield as they see the running back run through the hole.

Though to be fair, most of the time, Neo had a single safety deep. The problem was that Fred Taylor could easily juke or spin off of him, and Greg Jones outweighs his safeties by about 50 pounds and could just steamroll him. But if he had other players back there too, then there would be someone to make a follow-up hit that brings the guy down.

You won''t bring down a good runner with one hit. You have to make a hit, and get someone else to follow-up with another hit, and maybe even more guys if necessary. But if you give me a 1-on-1 with Mike Doss... well, as a Jags fan I have a grudge against Doss and his disrespect, so I will treasure that matchup forever.

Now, I''m sharing this not to be an asshole, but so''s Neo can see why he''s struggling against the run so much. (But yes, this all does contain my usual abrasive flair)

New feature, I want a ""Legion''s Strategy Corner"" once a week with more of those glorious Paint Shop depictions.

"Certis" wrote:

New feature, I want a ""Legion''s Strategy Corner"" once a week with more of those glorious Paint Shop depictions.

You know, I''ve always wanted to do something like that.

That was classic Legion. Well done.

I can''t wait to play you in the 2005 league, to see if my keeping it a close game was a fluke or not.

<b>Again I had no issue with drops in my game against Legion.</b> I had plenty of issues in other game and they have been corroborated (via replays) by my opponents. In this case though, Legion is the only person I have played against that repeatedly took control of the DB''s and Lb''s and made plays outright and without help from the AI. This allowed him to man up and not allow me take advantage of one on one match-ups. He would crowd the line give me 1 on 1 on the outside and my Wr''s would still not get open. Just good D.

I need to get back to using the LB's, I am to line focused these days.

As for drops the game has never credited them correctly.....just ask players who actually pass.

As for the run, I only played the ""Bear"" (I hate it, as it begs to passed on) in the 4th Q when I stopped him twice. I played a 3-4 in most situations and only spread my Lb''s when it made sense...like when Legion constantly ran around the corner.

No formation worked against Legion, mostly because he broke tackle after tackle after tackle....repeat.

As for the AI it is supposed to adjust to a play caller who calls the same 4-6 run plays repeatedly. I.E. the LB''s should react etc etc. It just didn''t happened

You will note that DB''s do adjust to the same pass routes called frequently. I have seen it with my own eyes.

The drops I take issue with have nothing to with coverage and everything to do with bad AI. I don''t count drops when a WR takes a well timed hit or a DB bats the ball away.

As for drops, I think you''re mostly upset at drops that happen to everyone. If the receiver is being closely guarded, he will be far more likely to mishandle the ball. You only had a couple passes where the receiver was free and clear and he dropped it. If you want to get an idea as to what a real ""pass drop"" is, take a look at the play-by-play. Your receivers were credited with four drops - and one of those was by your halfback. The other passes that you think are drops are mishandled balls in coverage. Yes, they look like they''re in the guy''s hands and dropped.

I watch the fricken replays all the times and again took little issue with our game. You killed me, and ran like a mad man. So am I willing to listen to the ""how to run guide"" (which could easily just equate to using the shoulder charge and having a big back who breaks tackles:Dillon, Lewis..Taylor) and how to defend the run....because god knows after our game I need it. But considering I am generally one of the most prolific passers in any of these leagues, well I am pretty sure I know what a drop is and isn''t. But thanks and we shall meet again. Hopefully I won''t have the Colts

Mostly Frustrated,

Neo

Neo, and Grumpy - did you make your trade offers via Live? I don''t see them!

"NeoCell" wrote:

I watch the fricken replays all the times and again took little issue with our game.

OK then, I must have misunderstood what you were saying regarding the drops and thus I apologize.

I played a 3-4 in most situations and only spread my Lb''s when it made sense...like when Legion constantly ran around the corner

Assuming you mean 4-3 (since the Colts don''t run a 3-4), I''ll say that you very rarely kept both the linebackers and safeties to the inside. I virtually never had to run through 3 levels of defense. Someone was always out of the way. And you''re right, I would run to the outside too. That''s part of the cat-and-mouse game. Generally what you want to do is play something loose and wide. Running ""2 Soft"" won''t get you very many stuffed runs, but you won''t get gouged for 70 yards either up the middle or to the outside very often either.

Also, if you call pass blitzes out of the 4-3, then that will cause problems too. Because of instead of being out in space like my diagram, the blitzers will be running into the offensive backfield - and if their blitz assignment doesn''t happen to be the lane that the RB is running through, they will run right by him, leaving just the secondary to deal with. Perhaps that was part of the problem too.

Yes, I did splatter your DBs. I commented to Logan (who was watching) about how Doss looked like Greg Jones''s prison bitch. After one touchdown, we saw the two players up close walking next to each other, and the size difference was obvious. The idea is that you want a linebacker engaging the back so that a DB can make a clean-up hit. If you are in a situation where the RB and DB are one-on-one, well, Taylor''s the smallest of my two backs and he''s 234 lbs, and your safeties are very undersized (Doss is the heaviest of the two starters and he''s only 207, and that''s probably in full pads). Tackling a powerful running back is a 2-man job. Doss and Taylor 1-on-1 will, well, end something like this

Doss and Taylor 1-on-1 will, well, end something like this

That guy sure gets excited about touchdowns.

"Certis" wrote:

That guy sure gets excited about touchdowns.

Well the story behind that was that Mike Doss was dissing Taylor in the media earlier in the season.

Doss said, ""He better bring his game. If he hits me, fine, but if I catch him, believe me, I''m going to get the better shot. Best man is going to win, plain and simple.""

Well Doss brought his ""shot"", and Taylor rolled him.

And yeah, that announcer is often very excited. He was well aware of the Taylor/Doss matchup too.

Do me next! I want to know all the retarded mistakes I make so I can keep making them over and over again.

"Thin_J" wrote:

You are now on my list.

What list is that exactly? ''Cause I ain''t falling for that ""spankings are fun"" line again.

Also, if you call pass blitzes out of the 4-3, then that will cause problems too. Because of instead of being out in space like my diagram, the blitzers will be running into the offensive backfield - and if their blitz assignment doesn''t happen to be the lane that the RB is running through, they will run right by him, leaving just the secondary to deal with. Perhaps that was part of the problem too.

Keep in mind I knew you were going to run from play 1. I used the 4-3 (yes I sounded like a moron saying 3-4 which the likes of the Pats/Ravens play) and generally I planned a zone. I only started blitzing and using wacky passing oriented after you had built a considerably lead. I wish I would have gone to the evil ""bear"" earlier, becuase a copy of the zone''s with DB''s pinching/blizting worked well. But you still broke big runs in the 4th while I was in the fricken bear. I usually squeezed the line and slightly spread by LB''s. Only started spreading them completely when you ran wild outside and Db''s wouldn''t come off blocks.

Note that in the two leagues going the top teams have a few things in common. Truly dominant/great defenses and string runners. Philadelphia would be the abberation, though they have a great defense paired with a more pass centric offense and the most lethal WR in the league. Owens runs DB''s over just like Rb''s do.

Great game though..

"Fletcher1138" wrote:
"Thin_J" wrote:

You are now on my list.

What list is that exactly? ''Cause I ain''t falling for that ""spankings are fun"" line again.

You mean it doesn''t work the fourth time?

I suppose it''s back to the drawing board for me then. My plans will not fail so miserably!

"Thin_J" wrote:

Do me next! I want to know all the retarded mistakes I make so I can keep making them over and over again. ;)

You shouldn''t be too dissatisfied with your performance. You didn''t play a bad game. You defended the run well. Anytime someone hold Fred Taylor below 100, they did a great job. Leftwich and Jimmy Smith just got the hot hand and the passing game was not going to be denied.

You do want to try and stick with the run a bit more. Out of 21 first downs you had, you only ran the ball on 5 of them. You want to start serieses of downs more often with the run, and try to get into 2nd-and-5 instead of 2nd-and-10. If you throw on first down and don''t complete it, you usually end up throwing on 2nd down and 3rd down too, and pretty soon you''re throwing the ball way way more than you''re running.

Scorp / Alanta

I can play now if you like. I will be home until 6:00 PM Pac

"*Legion*" wrote:

You shouldn''t be too dissatisfied with your performance.

From you, I''m going to assume that''s a very well-disguised compliment and be on my merry way.

*edited again*

Also, thanks for the advice. I have trouble going with running plays because it feels like I''m progressing so very slowly. I''ve also never had a run play move me more than 11 or 12 yards up the field. It feels like 90% of the time I Just get flat-out stopped, or I only get 1 or 2 yards.

I''ll definitely at least give running more of a shot though.

Despite all his jabber in this thread, Legion has yet to reply to a PM so we can set a time to play. I think his fear is of the pant-wetting variety.