Any Evangelical Christians here?

I heard about a guy with a radio show on an evvangelical christian station got fired for saying that the Pope was going to hell because the Pope wasn't born again. I did some internet research that says that Evangelical Christians believe that unless a person is born again they are going to hell. That includes non-Christians and non born agains...am I reading this wrong?

Catholics and Anglicans have the "good soul" policy that states all good souls get into heaven.

Just a question.

Last time I checked, Evangelicals didn''t have a common theology. Just a common methodology. I don''t personally even consider them a ""Church"" in that old sense of the word, so I doubt they have any particular doctrinal twist in mind. They should technically be very independant non-denominational.

I too would be interested to hear from one though.

illum is quite correct, in that the term Evangelical can be used to describe a wide variety of different variations of Christianity. Some of them do state that anyone not of their particular branch is going to hell, some of them are a bit more forgiving. I question your claim about Cathilics and Anglicans though, from a doctrine point of view - or rather, as I understand it, their ''good soul'' is a narrow definition defined by the church. Thus, I might be a kind and generous person, always giving to charity, and repecting my spouse, etc - but if I believe Jesus was not the Son of God, then I would go to hell. Or, perhaps, the Vestibule of Dis?

I am not saying this is what all Catholics or Anglicans believe, but this is what I understand of the dogma, and I may be incorrect.

As for the evengelicals, I often think of Jack Chick when I think of the more radical ones. I know for a fact he thinks we''re all going to hell, check out some of his pamphlets (Big Daddy is my favorite) if you don''t believe me

I am not saying this is what all Catholics or Anglicans believe, but this is what I understand of the dogma, and I may be incorrect.

I know that Catholics and Anglicans believe that you can be Jewish and still goto heaven as long as your a good soul. At least that is what I was taught in both Confrimation classes.

My father-in-law (well, techincally stepfather-in-law) is an Evangelical, and he''s one of these charming people who doesn''t even consider Catholics to be Christians. It led to a lot of...ummm...""interesting"" exchanges back when I worked at a Catholic church.

as for the evengelicals, I often think of Jack Chick when I think of the more radical ones. I know for a fact he thinks we''re all going to hell, check out some of his pamphlets (Big Daddy is my favorite) if you don''t believe me

I guess the enlightenment never hit that guy.

I actually had this discussion via email with a friend last week. His congregation believes that only *perfectly* virtuous behavior can get you in. Otherwise, you need to have your sins forgiven by Jesus Christ, or you ain''t going nowhere good. So they have a sort of impossible standard for non-believers, who however can be redeemed through submission to the Lord.

He is a bible-believing follower of Christ, and is working to read the Bible in Greek. I''m not sure if he''s learning Aramaic but it''s certainly covered in one of his multi-language tomes.

"Ulari" wrote:

I know that Catholics and Anglicans believe that you can be Jewish and still goto heaven as long as your a good soul. At least that is what I was taught in both Confrimation classes.

But what if I''m Hindu, or an athiest? I really don''t know for sure about the details, but I''m pretty sure ''good soul'' implies some sort of monotheistic belief. I''m not trying to be critical, but I''m just exploring the similarities and differences of the various mainstream faiths. Didn''t mean to derail the main direction of the thread though

For the record, I have seen very rational Evangelicals - they just tend to be a bit quieter in their moderate stances.

edit:

"Robear" wrote:

He is a bible-believing follower of Christ, and is working to read the Bible in Greek.

I was raised Greek Orthodox, so you can take word for it that he has a hell of a task in front of him, no pun intended

"Robear" wrote:

I actually had this discussion via email with a friend last week. His congregation believes that only *perfectly* virtuous behavior can get you in. Otherwise, you need to have your sins forgiven by Jesus Christ, or you ain''t going nowhere good. So they have a sort of impossible standard for non-believers, who however can be redeemed through submission to the Lord.

He is a bible-believing follower of Christ, and is working to read the Bible in Greek. I''m not sure if he''s learning Aramaic but it''s certainly covered in one of his multi-language tomes.

Does he believe in purgatory?

"DrunkenSleipnir" wrote:

I question your claim about Cathilics and Anglicans though, from a doctrine point of view - or rather, as I understand it, their ''good soul'' is a narrow definition defined by the church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in no uncertain terms that salvation is only possible through Christ. It qualifies that statement by basically saying that there are many good people whose actions could be considered ""Christian"" even though they do not bear the name, and therefore they may also ultimately end up at the pearly gates. I can''t remember exactly how it''s laid out, but that''s the gist of it.

edit: I would guess that an outright rejection of Christ, as in the case of an athiest, would make it pretty difficult to meet the criteria for being sort of ""accidentally"" Christian.

"Podunk" wrote:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in no uncertain terms that salvation is only possible through Christ. It qualifies that statement by basically saying that there are many good people whose actions could be considered ""Christian"" even though they do not bear the name, and therefore they may also ultimately end up at the pearly gates. I can''t remember exactly how it''s laid out, but that''s the gist of it.

I gotcha. I expect that there is probably a complex system for determining this, but I understand what you''re saying. I''d ask the same question of Protestants, but there are enough flavors that I''m sure it must vary.

Most of my knowledge of the Catholic Church is actually quite dated, in that I extensively studied the history and politics from its creation up to around the split by Luthor. I don''t have much of an idea what went on after that

You probably know more about it than most Catholics in the U.S.

OK...to set the record straight - Evangelical is not really a Christian branch - although some christians try to claim it as a branch. Evangelical is really a Christian concept (ironically practiced best by the Mormons and Jehovah Witness'') - it basically means that you should get out there and spread the Word, spread the faith, and many Christians are evangelical (missionaries are perfect examples, but there are some who travel to start churches in new communities, etc...) but most are moderate in their views and practices.

The are plenty of off-shoot branches, and actually a large portion of Protestants are brought up with the view that Catholics are not Christian (and I''ve had it shown to me how the Pope has more in common by discussion through the Bible with the coming Anti-Christ than he does with a Vicar of Christ - which Biblically is not a concept.) I once thought that in my naivetie (sp?).

Some fringe evangelicals, like charismatics, are fervent in their views of their view being the only interpretation - which goes in line with the baseline brainwashing that many sects go to to ensure that when Joe Snuffy points out to Evangelical #1 that the point he makes hold no water in view of Mark 1:x and Luke 2:y, that Evangelical #1 doesn''t have a stroke of faith crisis, since his mind can''t fathom other views.

Of course, this is what sects do, whether its extreme fundamentalist Muslims, or Scientologists or Mormons -

For the record, ensure there is clear distinction between a ''good soul'' and ''good works'' - and while I maintain my beliefs that, for instance, water baptism is essential for salvation (doesn''t apply to children until they understand - so I''m guessing the same would apply for those adults handicapped that do not understand) - I can say that that is my understanding of what is takes as step 1 to enter heaven - BUT, I do not jump the chasm and say that is the only path - WHY...simply because only God can judge...thats His call.

For the record, I would consider myself a non-denomination evangelical Christian - note only one word being capitalized

You forgot another unifying feature of the Evangelical movement: terrible music!

"Pigpen" wrote:

Vicar of Christ - which Biblically is not a concept.

Well, that depends on how you interpret the Bible, I suppose.

Not really on the Vicar - I''ve seen no evidence from the Bible or even Catholic friends that the Bible demands or states the need for a Vicar of Christ - nor in practice from the Apostles. What Catholics point to is Saint Peter being the first head of the Catholic Church, and thus the first Pope, and from there the tradition came to rest.

Please correct me if I''m wrong.

"DrunkenSleipnir" wrote:

But what if I''m Hindu, or an athiest?

Eternal hellfire for you sir. Didn''t you read The Inferno? You end up in hell for having lived before Christianity was around.

Thanks for helping to clear up the semantics of evangelicalism Pigpen.

What you''re describing here:

"Pigpen" wrote:

BUT, I do not jump the chasm and say that is the only path - WHY...simply because only God can judge...thats His call.

I feel is probably the view of most people of faith, and I think it''s a good way of looking at things. Unfortunately, many of the louder evangelicals that come to mind, like Jerry Falwell or Jack Chick do not share your sentiment. Some people are convinced they are right, and only they can be right. These are the sorts of angry people who yell fire and brimestone and tell us all we''re going to goto hell.

"Podunk" wrote:

You forgot another unifying feature of the Evangelical movement: terrible music!

In the words of Hank Hill, spoken to a Christian rock band: ""You''re not making Christianity better, you''re making Rock and Roll worse!""

Hey man...there is some damn good Christian rock/progressive music out there...

I love it...althought nothing compares to that Gwen Stefani ''Hollaback Girl"" Video...damn hot there...if thats hell...sign my butt up! <oops...digression attempt!>

"Pigpen" wrote:

Not really on the Vicar - I''ve seen no evidence from the Bible or even Catholic friends that the Bible demands or states the need for a Vicar of Christ - nor in practice from the Apostles. What Catholics point to is Saint Peter being the first head of the Catholic Church, and thus the first Pope, and from there the tradition came to rest.

Please correct me if I''m wrong.

While the bible does not specifically call for a supreme head of church, practical considerations make this good move. As the Catholic church grew, the need for organisation and leadership was pretty clear - the rank of Pope simply started as the head Bishop of Rome. And of course, there were priests all too happy to interpret the texts to read in favor of a consolodation of power. Catholic does mean ''universal'' after all.

"Pigpen" wrote:

Hey man...there is some damn good Christian rock/progressive music out there...

Hehe, I''m sure there is - but my memories of Christian rock are those of a highschool boy sitting in the house of his uber-Baptist girlfriend''s family and being forced to watch taped copies of the Christian Music Awards. Didn''t really leave a positive impression on my young mind

Pigpen: You are right, a Vicar, Bishop and all official positions in the ""Heirachal Mother Church"" are actually derived from the prefectures of the Diocletian Roman Empire. Administrative zones from which official names have come. The only way ""priests"" can come about is by virtue of apostolic succession via Rome. Which is why most old school churches maintain communian with the Catholic church in some way. To justify their existence Biblically.

Prederick: A common misconception, which like all modern criticisms comes from a very medieval idea of Christianity. In fact previously ""good pagans"" have in the past been given an equivalent to Sainthood. e.g. Aristotle. People need to know more about the early Church and believe less in in those post-Black death scare tactics.
That and Dante''s Divine Comedy isn''t a canonical text. Unfortunatly.

Since I know very little about the Catholic Church, I will ask these two questions to determine if the Pope is going to heaven:

1. Was the Pope baptized (and did he renounce Satan?)
2. Does he believe in and pray only to Jesus the Risen Lord?

I''m raised in a very ""Evangelical"" upbringing. Those are the primary criterion I''m aware of.

"Pigpen" wrote:

What Catholics point to is Saint Peter being the first head of the Catholic Church, and thus the first Pope, and from there the tradition came to rest.

Catholics point to Matthew 16:18 (""You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church"") as the institution of Petrine Office (the papacy). If Christ appointed Peter as the first Pope, doesn''t it follow that He established the ""tradition""?

Some links:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/200...
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ112.HTM

Anyway, not to get into P&C territory...just sayin''.

"Pigpen" wrote:

Not really on the Vicar - I''ve seen no evidence from the Bible or even Catholic friends that the Bible demands or states the need for a Vicar of Christ - nor in practice from the Apostles. What Catholics point to is Saint Peter being the first head of the Catholic Church, and thus the first Pope, and from there the tradition came to rest.

Please correct me if I''m wrong.

Which Bible are you reading?

"Pigpen" wrote:

Hey man...there is some damn good Christian rock/progressive music out there...

That is true. If you ever want to be lobotomized by a Christian band, check out Living Sacrifice, especially their album ""The Hammering Process."" Absolutely punishing. And like you say, there are a lot of cool proggy bands and musicians out there that lean Christian.

I was thinking more along the lines of the saccharine hand-clappin'' rock band praise and worship stuff I hear at my father-in-law''s church. That stuff hurts me.

"Podunk" wrote:

Anyway, not to get into P&C territory...just sayin''.

But that''s where we already are!

I believe you are correct though, in that Catholics do use this as the religiously justified source of the Papacy. However, the organization of the Catholic church is based off of the Roman hiearchy, as illum said. Because of the integration of the Church into the Empire, it made alot of sense to structure the various offices in such a way as to be consistant with the other administrative bodies.

"DrunkenSleipnir" wrote:

But that''s where we already are! :)

Whoa! Well I''ll be damned.

Everyone was being so darn civil, I didn''t realize where I was!

"Pigpen" wrote:

For the record, ensure there is clear distinction between a ''good soul'' and ''good works'' - and while I maintain my beliefs that, for instance, water baptism is essential for salvation (doesn''t apply to children until they understand - so I''m guessing the same would apply for those adults handicapped that do not understand) - I can say that that is my understanding of what is takes as step 1 to enter heaven - BUT, I do not jump the chasm and say that is the only path - WHY...simply because only God can judge...thats His call.

For the record, I would consider myself a non-denomination evangelical Christian - note only one word being capitalized :-)

Pigpen,

I consider myself having the same stance on faith as you, only God can judge.
Here is a situation for you guys:
Me, Christian , my upbringing: small Alabama Town Baptist.
My wife, Jewish, Very proud and strong faith and family.
Go figure opposites do attract

Does he believe in purgatory?

Not to my knowledge. I don''t think that''s in the New Testament.

I always though that... you know, GOD decided who goes to heaven or hell. If all you have to do is follow certain criteria... where the hell does the deciding and judging come in?

So, if GOD judges the pope worthy and whatever else strikes his fancy that day, he''ll get a pass into the pearly gates! But if GOD judges that the pop, despite his position of spiritual advantage is unworthy of HIS mercy, then he''ll burn with all the other sinners!

It would be heretical for mere mortals to dictate HIS will regarding some criteria we interpret from HIS word. GOD will judge us all individually when the time comes....

BTW, I''m an atheist born and raised so you''ll have to forgive my ignorance.

EDIT So, like what PigPen said in that big post towards the end... It''s up to GOD! That''s what I get for letting my eyes glaze over!

"Rezzy" wrote:

I always though that... you know, GOD decided who goes to heaven or hell. If all you have to do is follow certain criteria... where the hell does the deciding and judging come in?

I know you''re being sarcastic, Rezzy, but you''re exactly right. The ""criteria"" for salvation that Christianity provides are simply instructions for the faithful. They''re not there to enable to us judge who is ""saved"" and who is not...though unfortunately, many Christians still do.

edit: SKIMMER!

You know... my personal beliefs have nothing to do with the sincerity of what I was saying. I may not have Christ as my personal savior, but that''s no reason to discredit my thoughts!

I have had a lot of exposure to various levels of religions and extremist beliefs alike... except for the slightly humorous presentation (mostly because I''ll be damned if I ever consciously quote the bible... no pun intended) I was dead serious. I have a set of Grandparents that fell off the path of belief and were swept up by a pretty hard-core cult. Two-thirds of their income and belongings are channeled directly to some group operating out of some ranch in South-East Nebraska. In return they get a calendar by which to live their lives: when to pray, when to eat, when to sleep, when to give thanks, what to eat, what to listen to... the whole shebang. At the end salvation awaits.

I think the biggest problem is the natural competitiveness of the human condition. We are trying to be ''holier than thou'' and will delight in stories and occurences where someone is quite obviously damned and we can feel better about being ''most likely'' saved.

The pope was a good man. Whatever awaits him, reincarnation, the great void, heaven, whatever... he will be judged by the highest standard... in my heathen opinion. Let that be worth whatever it may.

EDIT: As a humorous sidenote, I just now realized that I''m wearing my ''winking-satan'' shirt. Hahaha! I am SO going to hell!
EDIT EDIT: A glaring spelling mistake