So... Warriors. Do they suck?

"TheGameguru" wrote:
Blizzard fixed this by making the rogue a very strong melee class, but it was at the expense of the warrior''s usefulness.

Im sorry thats simply not true... try any instance with a Rogue as your main tank (45+) you''ll see how far you dont get.

Or you''ll manage through at a snails pace cause your healers will burn so much mana every fight.

Considering it appears that they significantly dropped a rogue''s ability to hit anything, you are 100% correct. They can''t tank, and even now they do less damage then before.

It really blows hitting 1/4 the time. I''d rather take a drop in % to crit then overall hit%

I didn''t know rogues got the same penalty going dual that warriors did. That sucketh.

"Eezy_Bordone" wrote:
I didn''t know rogues got the same penalty going dual that warriors did. That sucketh.

That penalty doesn''t really bother me. We can almost erase it with talent points, which is fair to me. But I swear before the last patch I had a hit % around 75% and now its 25%. Annoying.

I don''t notice the drop in % that much, oh well. If they had rogues hitting even more, it would be unfair as hell to people fighting against them.

I just added my first talent point to upping my off-hand damage.

I havent heard any rogues complaining....

"TheGameguru" wrote:
I havent heard any rogues complaining....

Nope, I couldn''t be happier.

Both Rogues I group with alot are quite different. One is a Dagger/Fist BS type rogue while the other is a Mace/Sword stun rogue.

Both do just as much damage as they always do and I havent heard them complain at all.

Well I''m glad for you. I *am* complaining. I''m not asking for a 100% hit rate. But I would like to be able to hit more then 1/4 of the time.

I am not sure why you hit at 25%. *shrug*

I would say I hit at least 50% of the time. Maybe we need a parser to check the numbers or has someone done that in the official forums already?

"Dr.Ghastly" wrote:
Well I''m glad for you. I *am* complaining. I''m not asking for a 100% hit rate. But I would like to be able to hit more then 1/4 of the time.

Gotcha.. perhaps a new thread entitled ""so.. do Rogues suck?"" is in order.

"Flux" wrote:
I am not sure why you hit at 25%. *shrug*

I would say I hit at least 50% of the time. Maybe we need a parser to check the numbers or has someone done that in the official forums already?

Not sure. I can run some tests myself, but w/o seeing actual numbers being rolled in the background, no real way to verify it.

What *really* pisses me off though is I hit with ambush/backstab maybe 1/3 of the time. Seriously....

I think Cosmos can parse everything out...show you your hit rate/crit rate.

Not sure how specific and if it can capture Rogues offhand strikes.

I''ll ask and see.

What *really* pisses me off though is I hit with ambush/backstab maybe 1/3 of the time. Seriously....

Have you put talent points into improving these attacks? I have and it helps a lot.

Yeah, but if I remember correctly that just increases your chance to crit. If you miss, well, you miss. And GG, I forgot all about that option in Cosmos. I turned it off. i will turn it back on and see.

The one thing from this thread that interests me the most is the whole concept of controlling aggro in a group situation. I''m interested on people''s thoughts.

I think its agreed that it is possible for other classes to do more damage than a warrior and pull aggro from the warrior. Based upon this, it is not entirely up to the warrior to hold aggro. Sure, a warrior has tools available to them to help hold aggro, but I don''t think they can do it all by themselves. Correct me if I am wrong.

As a result, the warrior needs help from the rest of the group. But how? Lately, I have found myself holding back on occasion in fights to prevent taking aggro, more so solo than in groups. My hunter has a crit build and, on occasion, can do some pretty nasty damage. Sometimes this can be a bad thing since melee is not my strong suit. If I pull aggro from my pet it will often double the lenght of a battle. As a result, I have been leaving out some of my higher damage stings and shots to avoid aggro.

Is there something I am missing or do high damage classes such as mages and rogues need to hold back during battles? If so, do you just twiddle your thumbs for a while to avoid aggro? Is there a way to know when you are about to pull aggro or is it just a matter of having a feel for it?

You are correct, but I analyze the fight and determine ""Is letting aggro stay with the tank best, or is dropping the enemy fast better?""

It usually depends on how many creatures there are. But even then, not really since as long as I only concentrae on the one everyone else is, it''s all good.

"Copingsaw" wrote:
Is there something I am missing or do high damage classes such as mages and rogues need to hold back during battles? If so, do you just twiddle your thumbs for a while to avoid aggro? Is there a way to know when you are about to pull aggro or is it just a matter of having a feel for it?

Yes, and it''s not just high damage classes, but high heal classes. Playing a priest, my favorite example of a bad group (really a bad player) was when I randomly teamed up with a group containing a warrior (normally great for me, for reasons mentioned in my previous post). After playing a bit better than I normally do, and going through a big fight where I was routinely letting people drop to about 25% before pulling off good full heals to bump them backup (no one died, no one got down to the last tiny sliver of health, no one was burning heal potions, and by any objective measure I think it was decent work by me), I received the comment from the group warrior that I should be tossing out the heals when he was at 75% health.

In my mind, that is an example of terrible aggro management. I argued briefly with him (nicely), and then just decided to follow his plan to show him why it was a bad idea. It doesn''t take too long to get people down to 75% health, I stated casting my heals, and surprise of all surprises, the mobs all started beelining for me. I throw out ""I''m down to 75% with 3 mobs, heal me!"" He got the point.

Until I ""understood"" aggro a little better, I was actually like that guy. I threw shields and heals on people early in the fight, thinking I was helping by protecting them (although never at 75% health, I wasn''t that bad). I learned that you have to basically ""feel"" when to throw the heals (and the higher damage spells a priest can throw, which admittedly aren''t as powerful as mages, but can finish off a mob).

I think the problem is that a lot of people get off on the mindset that they can deal out massive damage, without realizing that they can''t actually deal out the massive damage if the mob is focused on them. They get ""damage fever"" and don''t realize that the massive damage and fast kills aren''t helping the party if it causes a wipe when aggro is removed from the tank.

I actually am starting to enjoy the aggro management aspect of the game. It can be frustrating at times, but that just makes it more rewarding when done right. The bottom line is aggro management is not the job of any one class, it''s not the healers job and it''s not the tanks job. It''s the job of every member of the party to ensure that aggro is maintained on the appropriate members of the group. The game provides a very rich set of tools to accomplish this goal. It''s up to us as players to understand the system and work within it.

A few observations:

When Healers heal people, the mobs treat that heal as an AOE with regards to aggro. If I heal Ruskin, the mob that Ruskin is engaged with isn''t the only enemy mob that gets ""angry"" at me.

Having a lower a slightly lower lvl Priest in your groups doesn''t seem to be a bad thing. When I am lower than the tanks, they seem to have a lot easier time holding aggro, and my heals are more than sufficent.

Just as healers shouldn''t run when they get aggro, Tanks SHOULD NOT run when they need healing. Healing spells have a range like any other. I got smoked in Gnomeregan last night because I was on bomb duty against the final boss and our 2 tanks got low on HP (about 1/4) I was starting the heals when they both broke and ran saying ""healmehealme"". I actually had to turn and CHASE them to heal them. Just as I got a heal off I took 3 bombs in the back and died. They lived on to kill the boss, but our other priest suffered the same fate. Not that I am bitter.

"JimmDogg" wrote:
Having a lower a slightly lower lvl Priest in your groups doesn''t seem to be a bad thing. When I am lower than the tanks, they seem to have a lot easier time holding aggro, and my heals are more than sufficent.

I understand that this is really from the lower level spells the healers cast, not from the healer himself being a lower level. I.e. you can accomplish the same thing being a higher level healer by casting lower level versions of your heal spells. I have never done this, because it starts to really clutter up the tool bars to have different levels of the same spell when you get to higher levels. Instead, I try to do something resembling this by using different versions of the heals (e.g. renew causes less aggro than heal).

From what I''ve read it on the WoW boards if it''s possible to let the warrrior whack on the mob alone for the first 3-5 seconds let him/her do so. After that the group can join in with whatever.

So, if the Warrior is ""broke"" what is your solution to fix the class? I guess I''m leaning towards an RNG error (I think the random rolls for items are good examples of what''s wrong) but if I could fix the Warrior it would be to simply have him generate rage for misses. My friend Bort laughs at me when I charge harmless bunnies and squirrels but it can effectively help maintain rage I might otherwise lose. Another solution may be to have rage generate when a party member is attacked.

I was wondering when someone would start a thread bemoaning the weaknesses of warriors, since it seems to happen for every class as a matter of course. I really don''t understand this because the reason I play games at least is to be challenged, not to plow through enemies without effort. JMJ''s hilarious post highlights this ridiculous ""my class should be able to use any weapon/armor, heal, and kill anything with one hit"" attitude that many people seem to have (I''m not saying you''re this way, SPLEEN). All the classes have strengths and weaknesses, and warriors are no different is this regard.

I think Blizzard has done a great job making combat exciting and challenging in WoW and that''s one of the things that makes the game so fun, especially in groups. What fun would it be if warriors could instantly and permanently hold aggro on all the enemies, allowing the mages and priests to sit back and launch spells from a distance with no fear of being attacked? As a warrior, I have to constantly be aware of my more fragile party members and work actively to keep mobs off them, often at a frenzied pace in more difficult battles. The mobs are also smart to go after the less-armored spellcasters in your group first. Think about it - don''t we employ the same strategy when facing mobs? Kill that healer first so he can''t keep repairing all the damage you''re doing to his buddies. If anything, this reflects good AI programming by Blizzard, not some weakness in the warrior class.

I don''t consider the class broke but like all the classes in the game I think they can be tweaked.

First off I would make rage potions on a different timer than health potions. This to me is a no brainer, I learned the other night that health potions are worth more to me than rage potions. I''ll generate about the same rage with the length of time a GH grants me longer life as a GR potion. I had taken a rage potion before a battle with the white tiger and died near the end because the potion timer (for a heal) hadn''t refreshed by the time I needed it.

Messing with rage accumulation/storage could be unbalancing.
If they implement (more?) rage on misses that''s fine but it shouldn''t be as much as when you hit, I could swear I generate 1 pt of rage when I miss currently I''d have to check. Maybe increase it for when the warrior gets hit (you generate rage this way too currently).
The ability to ''store'' 10-20 points of rage over the course of 5-10min would be nice but I don''t know the long term effects of such a change.

I wouldn''t mind another look by the devs at the miss rate but I feel I haven''t been hurt too much by this. I don''t dual wield either.

Make Pummel available in all stances.

Many of the problems associated with the class comes from the people Sly talked about, players that think they need to be healed at 75% health. As I warrior I know I can take more hits than other guys in the group and death is nothing in this game in terms penalties so I have no problem standing there and taking the beating. One of my problems is I run around without GH potions 90% of the time, it''s a bitch to coordinate getting that stuff, so I can''t cover myself if ''something irregular'' develops. I know this is a shortfall of me being lazy coordinating the trades (Jada was my main hookup and he now has higher priorities) and I''ll have to be better about it going into the tougher parts of the game.
First aid is also one of my failures, I think I''m at 110 right now... way below where I should be. I should be able to get the artisan quest right now.
I''m sure I don''t power play the class ''right'' but I''ve had fun since level one. I''ve also benefitted from playing from the start when many others were leveling at the same time so didn''t have the same problems grouping up with other GWJers.

Dagnabbit! Now I''m going to have to <rolls eyes here> start ANOTHER Alt.

Oh, the humanity......

"Cloke" wrote:
I was wondering when someone would start a thread bemoaning the weaknesses of warriors, since it seems to happen for every class as a matter of course. I really don''t understand this because the reason I play games at least is to be challenged, not to plow through enemies without effort. JMJ''s hilarious post highlights this ridiculous ""my class should be able to use any weapon/armor, heal, and kill anything with one hit"" attitude that many people seem to have (I''m not saying you''re this way, SPLEEN). All the classes have strengths and weaknesses, and warriors are no different is this regard.
...

Shattermaw is one of the few warriors I''ve grouped with and needless to say the class seemed far from broken when playing with him.

I just find I''m having a much more difficult time playing warriors than any of my other characters and especially my shaman. I like a challenge as much as the next guy but it''s been so bad I don''t feel like I''m pulling my own weight in a group. This causes my enjoyment factor to go down.

I''ve got lots o'' tips now though so we''ll see how it goes in the next little while.

Had two talent points saved up, found the Cruelty skill. Adds 1% chance to crit per point. I''m 2/5 for that one now! The crits should be rolling in!

"Spleen" wrote:
"Cloke" wrote:
I was wondering when someone would start a thread bemoaning the weaknesses of warriors, since it seems to happen for every class as a matter of course. I really don''t understand this because the reason I play games at least is to be challenged, not to plow through enemies without effort. JMJ''s hilarious post highlights this ridiculous ""my class should be able to use any weapon/armor, heal, and kill anything with one hit"" attitude that many people seem to have (I''m not saying you''re this way, SPLEEN). All the classes have strengths and weaknesses, and warriors are no different is this regard.
...

Shattermaw is one of the few warriors I''ve grouped with and needless to say the class seemed far from broken when playing with him.

I just find I''m having a much more difficult time playing warriors than any of my other characters and especially my shaman. I like a challenge as much as the next guy but it''s been so bad I don''t feel like I''m pulling my own weight in a group. This causes my enjoyment factor to go down.

I''ve got lots o'' tips now though so we''ll see how it goes in the next little while.

Not everyone enjoys every class equally, which is fine with me. I really didn''t like playing as a priest myself, especially trying to solo. The great thing is that there''s a good variety of character classes so that everybody can find something they like. You were just meant to be a Shaman.

Actually, since I''ve done some tweaking I''m doing much better with the warrior and consequently enjoying it much more. My Shaman is still my favourite but I no longer feel like I''m a disgrace to warriors everywhere.

"Spleen" wrote:
it''s been so bad I don''t feel like I''m pulling my own weight in a group

Spleen, I guess it depends on what you think is ""pulling your own weight"" when it comes to grouping. I gave up long ago thinking my Warrior would be a death dealing power house laying carnage behind while the rest of the group members try to keep up with me. If I can stand there taking a beating from 3-4 mobs (getting in some nice hits of my own) while the others whittle away at the mobs HP.. I call that pulling my weight. Nobody else can do that (Palidans come closest). If a mob turns on a Priest or a Mage and starts beating the snot out of them and you can use a Taunt Shout, Mocking Blow, etc to save them.. that''s pulling your weight. As crazy as people think going into an instance without a Priest is.. I feel the same about going without a Warrior. Even with a priest, a group of say a Hunter, Rogue and a Mage will have a tough time and probably require multiple rezes to keep the group going. If that group were to get multiple adds during a fight the Priest would have a tough time keeping up with all the heals and probably draw aggro and die themselves.

-Edit-
Was typing this out before I saw your new reply Spleen. Glad things are working out better!

You definately need to compare the warrior more to the ''tank'' class in CoH than the power dealer in most single player RPGs.