Doesn't it also mean that a SV hunter could still do CC AND get their Explosive trap dance going?
Yeah, that's what I was talking about with Black Arrow. 3.1 replaced trap dancing for Lock and Load procs with the use of a new ability called Black Arrow. It's still on the trap cooldown, though, so it still precluded an SV hunter from using Frost/Freezing traps if they wanted to do top DPS.
Definitely good news for PvE SV hunters. 
I wonder how long it will take someone to repurpose a shaman Totem Stomper into a Trap Stomper.
Well, traps are not targetable entities -- they are only tripped by walking over them. That said, totem stomping macros should be going away in 3.2, since totems will no longer be targetable through the /tar command.
I wasn't thinking of a Totem Stomper from the viewpoint of pulling them up or killing them.
I was thinking Totem Stomper from the viewpoint of a 1-button multi-totem dropper.
Now that Hunters willbe able to drop 3-4(?) traps at once, I would imagine 1 to 3 combinations will turn out to be ideal for a given situation. So a raiding hunter would almost always be dropping Trap Q, A, and Z while a PvP hunter would always be dropping W, S, and X, but soloing, you might always do E, D, and C.
Putting that on one button would make life a lot easier. I forsee totem management addons being repurposed into trap management addons.
My main is and will always be a MM hunter, so the pending Survival changes won't affect me. But I'm wonder if this will bring Survival back to what it was intended to be -- a trap master.
The recent and sudden popularity of Survival had nothing to traps and everything to do with being an uber-buffed marksman, and I'm pretty sure that's not what Blizzard wanted.
That said, trapping is hard, so I expect to see a stampede into the MM ranks once 3.2 comes out.
I wasn't thinking of a Totem Stomper from the viewpoint of pulling them up or killing them.
I was thinking Totem Stomper from the viewpoint of a 1-button multi-totem dropper.
Ah, I see.
I usually hear the term "totem stomping" in reference to macros that automatically target totems and send a pet to kill them, which has been a major thorn in the side of PvP shamans forever. 3.2 will finally be making that not possible, though, via a change to the macro system.
Yeah, you're quite likely right -- hunters may start looking for tools to help manage their traps now.
That said, trapping is hard, so I expect to see a stampede into the MM ranks once 3.2 comes out.
Actually, apparently at the highest gear levels (ie, best in slot pieces from U25) MM is now top DPS, so if you look at hunters in crazy hardcore guilds, that stampede has already begun I think.
Could be, Zero. My initial reading on 3.1 was that Survival was the uber build. (I'll call that the BRK Effect.)
After a while, MM seemed to catch up. Or maybe Survival fell off. In any case, there didn't seem to be much difference all of a sudden. I don't know how much of that had to do with a mechanic change, itemization or the fact some folks have trouble mastering Survival.
Let's face it: BM and MM are easy -- send in your pet and shoot 'till it drops. The only difference is whether your pet is merely holding aggro or doing real damage.
Survival was hard until it became a pet-attack-and-shoot spec. The multiple trap options in 3.2 will open things up to a lot of creativity. I wonder if those target dummies can measure Trap Damage? Otherwise, expect EJ to implode.
I've looked at the other trees, but MM has always called out to me at the most base level. Whether solo or in raid, the uber long-range spanking that MM delivers has appealed to me. Sure, PvP is another issue, but since I avoid that like the plague, MM still stands head and shoulders above the others. I guess that I'm the anomoly, in that I've only leveled the one toon (Trollslayer, MM Hunter), and have never switched trees.
Actually, apparently at the highest gear levels (ie, best in slot pieces from U25) MM is now top DPS, so if you look at hunters in crazy hardcore guilds, that stampede has already begun I think.
I think the cut off might be a bit lower than experts suggest. You're definitely correct (I believe most of ensidia's hunters are MM now) but even our hunter (Ulduar 10 and naxx 25 geared) noticed a sizeable dps increase in his MM spec. Although he says part of that is that MM tends to be much more forgiving on mobility fights, due to its very low priority on steady shot.
I've looked at the other trees, but MM has always called out to me at the most base level.
Yeah, I feel the same way about BM. I spent a lot of time on the 3.1 PTR playing with MM and SV, and neither felt like the way I wanted to play the game. Since I've managed to continue to produce respectable DPS with my favored spec, I just don't feel compelled to change for the promise of a few hundred more DPS in optimal conditions (even if it would let me consistently top that dirty Bzorius 
).
Although he says part of that is that MM tends to be much more forgiving on mobility fights, due to its very low priority on steady shot.
For PvE fights, MM is definitely going to be the most resilient to imperfect or unfriendly encounter scenarios. BM hunters have to worry about protecting their pet and have a high reliance on steady shot, SV hunters want to stand still for sniper training and have a situational proc based damage model.
It's more than that, though; as the skills and talents are laid out, MM just currently scales better at high gear levels.
Still staying BM myself, though, unless they really kick my DPS in the junk in 3.2.
I might try MM in 3.2 just to see what it's like, but I fell in love with the SV rotation. I sorta enjoyed trap dancing, but it's really not my thing.
I've looked at the other trees, but MM has always called out to me at the most base level. Whether solo or in raid, the uber long-range spanking that MM delivers has appealed to me. Sure, PvP is another issue, but since I avoid that like the plague, MM still stands head and shoulders above the others. I guess that I'm the anomoly, in that I've only leveled the one toon (Trollslayer, MM Hunter), and have never switched trees.
I am in the same boat with you Troll. I have always been MM and I don't think I will ever switch out. I haven't Dual Spec'ed yet because I haven't felt the need. I was contemplating BM to get an Exotic pet just to have or maybe to solo play a bit, but I just haven't felt the drive to do it.
Has any other Hunter had the same issue with DS?
I dual specced into MM from SV and find myself liking MM a bit more at the moment--the rotation, the extra instant, and Readiness for controllable burst come to mind, and I can move around without penalty (which I tend to do unconsciously in any case). I haven't tried BM just because the gear seems to be a bit different.
I might try MM in 3.2 just to see what it's like, but I fell in love with the SV rotation. I sorta enjoyed trap dancing, but it's really not my thing.
Well, so far I'm not blown away by the damage, but then again I haven't tested it out in a serious raid of any sort yet. Re-gemming for AP was a breeze and for the most part my EQ still seems to serve the spec well. I'm not topping the charts, but then again I wasn't as SV either.
ScurvyDog wrote:I might try MM in 3.2 just to see what it's like, but I fell in love with the SV rotation. I sorta enjoyed trap dancing, but it's really not my thing.
Well, so far I'm not blown away by the damage, but then again I haven't tested it out in a serious raid of any sort yet. Re-gemming for AP was a breeze and for the most part my EQ still seems to serve the spec well. I'm not topping the charts, but then again I wasn't as SV either.
Why regem for AP as MM? Given the emphasis on crit, alongside Combat Experience, I'd valuate Agi well ahead of AP.
Yeah, I'm fairly certain that other than at early Naxx 10 gear levels (i.e, mostly ilevel 200 items and below) prevailing wisdom is that both MM and SV should favor agility over AP for gemming, and for gearing when things are close. As a result, this makes it pretty easy to dual spec SV/MM, since the gearing is very similar once you've moved beyond introductory raiding content.
BM still favors pure AP into very high levels of gear only because of how pet scaling currently works -- pets scale well off AP, but not off many other stats at all. However, this might actually change after 3.2 depending on how far they get on their current project of fixing pet scaling.
ScurvyDog wrote:ScurvyDog wrote:I might try MM in 3.2 just to see what it's like, but I fell in love with the SV rotation. I sorta enjoyed trap dancing, but it's really not my thing.
Well, so far I'm not blown away by the damage, but then again I haven't tested it out in a serious raid of any sort yet. Re-gemming for AP was a breeze and for the most part my EQ still seems to serve the spec well. I'm not topping the charts, but then again I wasn't as SV either.
Why regem for AP as MM? Given the emphasis on crit, alongside Combat Experience, I'd valuate Agi well ahead of AP.
Not well ahead at all IMO...actually neck-and-neck for MM depending on gear/situation. The way I see it: As MM and with the limited gem slots I currently have, adding AGI gems only increases my crit rating a tiny amount over what it is now, whereas the +AP is affecting each and every shot and making my pet hit a little harder, while Master Marksman already increases my crit more than gemming would.
In other words: I'll take the extra guaranteed DPS than an extra 0.40% chance of critting.
Now, this would change completely if [/i]I had dual-specced and ever had notions of switching back to SV. But I don't...I'm going to stick with MM a while and see where I can take it.
Scurvy, how does Kings affect that choice? Is the ??->AP conversion significantly different with Kings?
Do you regularly raid with enough paladins to be guaranteed Kings on 90% of your runs?
Just curious.
Not well ahead at all IMO...actually neck-and-neck for MM depending on gear/situation. The way I see it: As MM and with the limited gem slots I currently have, adding AGI gems only increases my crit rating a tiny amount over what it is now, whereas the +AP is affecting each and every shot and making my pet hit a little harder, while Master Marksman already increases my crit more than gemming would.
Yeah, I'd only classify agility as well ahead for SV hunters, but again, at high levels of gear the numbers do still seem to slightly favor agility for MM. Obviously, though, these are EJ spreadsheet sorts of guidances we're talking about here -- in reality, as MM you'll be fine either way (at least until a patch changes everything). Again, I think it's worth pointing out that simply by raiding as BM I'm not taking the guidance of the EJ crowd either; my feeling is that in the end, you do what seems to work best for you.
Scurvy, how does Kings affect that choice? Is the ??->AP conversion significantly different with Kings?
Do you regularly raid with enough paladins to be guaranteed Kings on 90% of your runs?Just curious.
All of the EJ spreadsheet sort of calculations take into account the presence of optimal raid buffs, such as kings and might, so this is actually a very valid point -- if you remove kings from the DPS calculation, the value of AP very likely is going to be enhanced versus agility.
Anyway, as a general rule of thumb if hunter can only have one pally buff I'm pretty sure might is always best. For SV hunters, who gain AP off stamina as well as agility and int AND have an agility multiplying talent, kings definitely comes a lot closer to being the preferred pally buff than it does for BM and MM, but I can't say for certain one way or the other.
Zero what kind of DPS do you do as BM?
My hunter is mostly heroic geared currently, and Survival specced.
But I always played as BM before and I liked it. I'm wondering if it'd really be that big a shift or drop off in DPS. I currently do ~2.4k.
Zero what kind of DPS do you do as BM?
My hunter is mostly heroic geared currently, and Survival specced.
But I always played as BM before and I liked it. I'm wondering if it'd really be that big a shift or drop off in DPS. I currently do ~2.4k.
I don't keep WWS parses of my runs, but I do obsessively watch recount throughout them. I think on our last Patchwerk kill (since that is often used as a metric) my DPS was somewhere in the 5.5K range? And on our XT and Kologarn 25 kills last night I was somewhere between 5 and 6K. (Those fights are relatively friendly to the spec, though. On other fights the number could vary anywhere from 3.5 to 6k+.)
To me what's more useful is to look at my relative standing as compared to similarly geared players in the raid, though. I have trouble keeping up with the rogues, but I'm generally in the mix with similarly geared players of all the other DPS classes, generally ending up in the top 2-5 on any given fight and on the overall charts for an evening of raiding.
I can give a bit deeper analysis by comparing my output to that of the other well geared hunters we run with, who run SV and MM specs. Both are very close in gearing to me overall, but I have the distinct advantage of having an ilevel 226 gun where they do not. A recent patch made ilevel 226 and above guns WAY more powerful than those below to make up for a lack of ammo scaling. As such, I'm pretty sure that once either of them gets a gun/bow drop out of U25, they will be consistently beating me. As it is, they already do beat me on occasion depending on the fight.
What does EJ say though? Not sure, I run a Mac and their spreadsheet doesn't work in the Mac version of Excel. Looking at the theoretical calculations from hunters who have roughly the same gear as me though I could probably be doing around 500 DPS better if I was skilled with either MM or SV, and the gap grows as gear level increases -- BM's real issue is that it just doesn't scale as well as it should due to lackluster pet scaling. But to me, it's all about what you know and enjoy. I know how to use my spec to its greatest ability, and I enjoy the "bid red death button" mechanic more that I enjoy the "watch for the proc" mechanic of SV or the "roll your dots" mechanic of MM. What's more, I feel like I can competently pull my weight in a raid with this spec, and that's what is most important to me.
Geared as you are, though, I'd say you probably won't see a huge shift in your DPS as long as you get the right pet, use the right specs for yourself and your pet, optimize your gems, and most importantly play the spec well. Let's put it this way -- the change you will see will not be 500 DPS. It might be 50 or 100 or nothing at all, depending on your relative skill with the two different specs. And by the time you have the gear where the gap COULD be as large as 500 DPS, you might feel as I do now and not quite care so much anymore.
EDIT: Oh, and if you are going to be BM, you need the T7 2 piece bonus, end of story, at the very least until T9 is available. Not optional in any way, shape, or form.
I was wondering what gear you had Zero but then I looked and now I understand why you are doing 5k+. With my gear I can only pull 4K 25-raid buffed. I like using Guru's Elixir with Kings when I can, but yes if I have one pally buff Might is the one I usually go with plus as a MM I will also pop a Mighty Intellect Elixir to round out my pots and give me more AP from the INT and extra mana.
Saronite Razorheads now creates Saronite Razorheads x 1000 instead of Saronite Arrow Maker and requires Saronite Bar x 2. (Down from 15)
and
Mammoth Cutters now creates Mammoth Cutters x 1000 instead of Ultrasafe Bullet Machine and requires Saronite Bar x 1 (Down from 6) and Volatile Blasting Trigger (Down from 4).
FELLOW HUNTERS REJOICE!!!
EDIT: I am sorry for the double post, I posted the first one in response to a few of you and then went to check MMO-Champion and saw the 2 nuggets of info above and had to post those. I guess they could have went in the 3.2 catch all but they do pretain to Hunters though so I figured here was better.
Saronite Razorheads now creates Saronite Razorheads x 1000 instead of Saronite Arrow Maker and requires Saronite Bar x 2. (Down from 15)
and
Mammoth Cutters now creates Mammoth Cutters x 1000 instead of Ultrasafe Bullet Machine and requires Saronite Bar x 1 (Down from 6) and Volatile Blasting Trigger (Down from 4).
Well, I'd rather finally have the change to non-consumable ammo, but I'll take it.
Just to be clear, though, reduction in cost isn't quite that sweet -- the ammo machines did make 2000 ammo apiece, so the new cost is actually about 26% the old cost, not 13%. Still, absolutely nothing to complain about.
Dunno if this is old news or not, but someone figured out how to get a worgen pet.
Here's a screenshot of a guy's in blackhand. Pretty hilarious.
Good news for folks like myself without access to the Windows version of Excel. One of the folks over at EJ is working on adapting the Hunter DPS spreadsheet into a website. It's not perfect yet, but he's actively taking feedback in this thread.
That's good news for Excel users too--hopefully it will be a bit more elegant and you won't have to reinput certain info when there's an update.
Oh, doesn't have a gear planner yet. That has been my main use, although I can plug in the MPE, Siren's, and Giant's and see what it spits out for a start.
That's good news for Excel users too--hopefully it will be a bit more elegant and you won't have to reinput certain info when there's an update.
Oh, doesn't have a gear planner yet. That has been my main use, although I can plug in the MPE, Siren's, and Giant's and see what it spits out for a start.
What the heck use IS it besides the gear planner?!?
Does OpenOffice not read Excel with macros? (Just asking)
Does OpenOffice not read Excel with macros? (Just asking)
Nope, and neither does the latest version of Excel for the Mac, which I have (thanks to work ).
EDIT: To be more accurate, the document opens just fine, but the macros do nothing.
Does OpenOffice not read Excel with macros? (Just asking)
It's often sort of fishy how well it works and interprets things I think. Don't have a lot of experience with it myself though (I use Numbers, which unfortunately has no macro support at all but is a more stable overall environment).
Edit: Apparently Zero knows better than I, unsurprisingly. I got so frustrated with OpenOffice so quickly, I installed an extra license of iWork I have on my work computer.
What the heck use IS it besides the gear planner?!?
:P
Well, checking what spec, enchant, and gem changes can do for you for one, not to mention seeing what swapping several pieces at a time will do for you in calculated DPS (although wowhead's profiler is a more elegant interface if all you want to see is changes to raw stats). But again, if unlike me you can actually use the spreadsheet version, this isn't terribly useful until they fully implement the gear planner in the web version.
It was quite useful for me, though. My current gear set is optimized for BM stats, but with my rough calculations based on my research at EJ I figured I could get roughly 500 DPS (under the spreadsheet's optimal conditions, of course) more by switching to a MM or an SV spec. Turns out I was slightly off -- with my current gear (regemmed and enchanted, of course) SV actually only offers me at best around a 150 DPS increase, assuming I manage to develop my skill with the spec to match my abilities as BM. MM, however could gain me something closer to 600 DPS with my current gear, and that's without regemming (agi and ap are much closer in value for MM, after all).
Of course, with a major patch on the near horizon that's almost, but not quite, enough to convince me to invest the time and energy in the learning the change would call for. It amounts to (in theory) roughly a 9% gain, but I'm not going to dump the spec I know and enjoy playing if that gain may only be meaningful for another month or so. Still, I now have a much clearer idea of which spec has the potential to offer me the most if 3.2 doesn't bring significant enough boosts to my preferred spec.
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