WoW Simplistic Gameplay Fallacy

Just thought Id point out that the notion of going from exclamation point to question mark and easy combat is completely false. There have been several occasions in groups or soloing where tactics played a key role in the fight and the fights, while shorter in length, have no less complexity than many EQ1 group encounters.

An example:
I was doing the cave mushrooms quest in darkshore fighting Naga. I came upon the end of the cave encounter that pitted me against 2 tanks and a healer/nuker. All were green cons which is much more tough than green cons in EQ1 and not quite as tough as a blue con in EQ1. Probably equivalent to a green^^ con in EQ2. Well, my first attempt was to try and isolate the healer from the group by waiting to pull it until the 3 were furthest apart. No go. They all chased me half way to the mouth of the cave. The next time, I cast hp regen on myself, went into bearform to soak up extra hits, and proceded to take on all 3 while stunning the healer when she tried to heal. The healer goes down, I switch back to night elf form, heal and reregen while the tanks are pounding me, then go back into bearform and beat the snot out of the tanks.

Another example can be verified by Leaping, Shanker, Fiddler, and Ruskin when we grouped to take care of a few quests in the non instanced part of dead mines. A well rounded party brings a lot of skills to the table to manage the chaos that ensued. Leaping brought his big aoe nukes and frost nova root crowd control. Fiddler waged havoc through undead unflesh and provided many emergency heals. More than me, the primary healer, in fact. I had a few as well, but I was making sure I made my rounds dousing everyone with heal over time spells and poking a few undead with my dagger. Shanker blended and well, shanked. Ruskin made sure those of us weaklings did not have one or more mobs hacking us for very long.

I totally agree Fang. Some of the more complicated fights you will ever get into involve instances and they get tougher the higher you level up. Lots of different things can go wrong in a fight and you always have to be on your toes in case they do.

Yeah there is a bunch of intricacy (sp?) in the combat. I''ve been reading on the boards how warriors are ''underpowered'' but in all honesty if I were a mob I''d go aggro on the healer too, that''s good AI to me not a nerfed class. Plus there are tools I''m learning to use more than just my heroic strike.

Sunder Armor is a goodie I''m finding, it lasts a long time and lets everyone do more dmg on the mob.
Mocking Blow is good for taking aggro from the healers for 6 seconds giving me 6 seconds to take aggro ''by force''.
My DoT (can''t think of the actual name right now) is good for mobs that don''t run away (and with my talents my crit does like 25% of my damage on top of normal damage - over time)
Hamstring is good for those mobs that do run away slowing them down when they think it''s a good idea to get away.. it''s too late when you''ve entered into melee with me. The only way out is to kill me.

That said I''ve kind of forsaken my shield but I''ve been reading the bash shield still does spell interruption so I may pick up a sheild and 1h sword to try out some defensive stance stuff.

There is a whole bunch of playing around and individualization that you can do with each class based on how you play and how you spend talent points (hopefully spending to benefit your playstyle).

I do like being a pin cushion but I like seeing the 200+ hits I get every so often when wailing on the bad guys. If only I didn''t miss so much.

I thought 5 member parties were a little constrictive at first, but I enjoy it now. More personal and it makes sure everyone is doing their job.
As far as simplistic gameplay, I could think of a half dozen different talent combos that would change my play style, plus as a priest I''ve got spells like mind control that I haven''t even experimented with yet.

I just wanted to get this straight because there are a lot of similarities in the combat between EQ1 and WoW. Its just that WoW has taken the edge off of the bite without removing the sting.

For example:
Enemy mobs full heal themselves and others. However, its a close radius of who they heal. They only do it once before they run out of mana because they are nuking you at the same time.

When you try and run away, at level 15+ a greater percentage of mobs will have a snare to slow you down.

When fighting 2 mobs at once, healing yourself takes quite a bit longer due to interruptions. So heal early and if you are fighting 3 forget about it as you are limited to your insta cast spell selection.

Mobs can knock you down and knock you back a good distance (and off cliffs!) completely interrupting spells making you recast them.

There are Mobs with pets. These pets vary from lesser copies of the parent to nukers, etc with skills of their own. Oh, and they dont die if you kill the parent.

There are stealthing, backstabbing rogue mobs that use the same skills as PC rogues. Oh, not just one or two skills either.

Higher levels, please chime in as Im sure mobs get more sophisticated.

Thermaplugg in Gnomeregan has this great swipe attack that throws everyone near him back probably a good 10 to 15 yards. Not enough for falling damage, but it''s a fun ride.

When you try and run away, at level 15+ a greater percentage of mobs will have a snare to slow you down.

This has actually been one of the few combat frustrations I have had. All the upper level mobs seem to daze you when they hit you. I''m sure there are exceptions but I''m equally sure that I get dazed in almost every fight I am in. This isn''t really a problem unless I find the need to run away. At this point, it becomes impossible. If you are dazed, you run at a crawl and they will just hack you to death. Nothing you can do about it. run = die.

Is there any way to break daze so you can actually run away? Maybe a potion or a spell? Maybe blizzard could change it so daze isn''t 100% effective or something. At least give us some chance of running away.

Cope, I have that too, think about it, it''s even worse for me with my piddly cloth armor. I just have to hope my freeze spell is cooled down, then I can freeze them in place and keep running. Usually by the time the freeze breaks the daze has worn off.

Great post, Fangblackbone.

I have seen quite a few references to WoW conjuring up images of ''hand holding'', ''spoon-feeding'', and ''EQ-lite'' - but thing I''ve always like about Blizzard(going back to the days of the first Diablo and Warcraft) is that they are hardcore games made accessible to novices.

Warcraft III is (to me) one of Blizzard''s best examples of this design-philosophy; i.e. - it starts out at a snails pace with every aspect of the game explained in detail. By the end of the game(and especially so in the ""Frozen Throne"" expansion and in multiplayer) you are in ""multi-task hell"" or very close to it.

During open beta I had seen quite a few broadcasts in Elwynn Forest(made by people in the level 8-15 range) asking ""does this game ever get any harder?"" to which I replied ""the dynamics of the game will change somewhere around level 20, especially with instanced dungeons"", and I have found this to be a farily accurate response(I''m currently level 27).

There are a few ways that I know of to break dazed. My pally''s invul spell breaks it, if I remember correctly the rogue''s Vanish breaks it, priest''s invul breaks it, not sure about other classes...

priest''s invul breaks it

Are you talking about PW: Shield? That would prevent it from hitting you, but I don''t think it would break it once it was on you. Dispel magic might work, but I think that is a physical effect and not a ""spell"". I will have to test. The stuns are the bane of my existance and account for 90% of my deaths.

Hmm, I have dispel magic spell, didn''t even think of that, interesting.

Blizzard has said that the daze is hitting too often and is being fixed at some point.

For the Warriors, we have a talent that increases our resistance to daze by up to 15% if you put all 5 points into it. I get dazed insanely often in fights, but I''m usually still able to run away (mostly I think just cause we can take a beating longer than the other classes). As soon as I think that things are going bad and I might have to run I hamstring everything I''m fighting and make a break for it.

"Eezy_Bordone" wrote:
Yeah there is a bunch of intricacy (sp?) in the combat. I''ve been reading on the boards how warriors are ''underpowered'' but in all honesty if I were a mob I''d go aggro on the healer too, that''s good AI to me not a nerfed class. Plus there are tools I''m learning to use more than just my heroic strike.

Sunder Armor is a goodie I''m finding, it lasts a long time and lets everyone do more dmg on the mob.
Mocking Blow is good for taking aggro from the healers for 6 seconds giving me 6 seconds to take aggro ''by force''.
My DoT (can''t think of the actual name right now) is good for mobs that don''t run away (and with my talents my crit does like 25% of my damage on top of normal damage - over time)
Hamstring is good for those mobs that do run away slowing them down when they think it''s a good idea to get away.. it''s too late when you''ve entered into melee with me. The only way out is to kill me.

That said I''ve kind of forsaken my shield but I''ve been reading the bash shield still does spell interruption so I may pick up a sheild and 1h sword to try out some defensive stance stuff.

There is a whole bunch of playing around and individualization that you can do with each class based on how you play and how you spend talent points (hopefully spending to benefit your playstyle).

I do like being a pin cushion but I like seeing the 200+ hits I get every so often when wailing on the bad guys. If only I didn''t miss so much.

Look forward to sharing some Warrior tips with you Eezy. Yeah I agree with you on all those. I highly recommend you to bring a shield with you on all instances. Shield bash disables a mage''s ability to cast one school of spell for six seconds or so, making it a useful tool to pull spellcasters.

Defensive is a very useful stance that not too many warriors use (to my surprise). Taunt is an excellent pulling technique, while Disarm severely decreases your enemy''s DPS. In a group situation, this stance is what truly makes a warrior shine.

I''m trying to pool in enough points in rage talent tree to gain access to that stunning shout. Can''t wait to see how it goes.

Regarding warriors, I posted this in the suggestions forums on the official boards today. If you like it, please bump the post

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...

For those that don''t want to go to the official forum, here''s the suggestion:

"Strekos''s warrior alt Shaun (of the Dead)" wrote:
Give warriors a skill that allows them to designate a person in their party as someone the warrior is guarding. When that person takes damage, the warrior builds rage.

Maybe let talent points be spent to increase the number of people that can be guarded to two or three, or just to increase the amount of rage generated. Make it defensive stance only if you want. Make it not work for damage caused by other players if it''s overpowering in PvP.

I''ve gotten Peecaboo up to about 15 and have only grouped happily once...with a bunch of us, actually. And while I''ve figured out some strategies for soloing mobs, I''m quickly figuring out that at my level, I probably need to find a better way of doing it...what with the virtually no armor thing...I''m getting creamed a lot.

I''d also really like to learn group tactics, to try and get a handle on what the rogue''s role is in the group. Despite playing a half a dozen other mmorpgs, I almost always play casters, so the whole concept of getting close to mobs is new to me.

I know I''m a lot lower level than most of the Alliance crowd...but pickup groups have been a nightmare, so I''d rather play with the non-l33t people...like my fellow guildies. Are there level restrictions in WOW, outside of the experience penalty? I don''t mind taking the exp hit to get real life exp in how to best run the class to the benefit of the people I really want to be playing the game with. (I really need to get back to my horde characters...poor DuckiLama has been abandoned by his Alliance loving wife...)


on what the rogue''s role is in the group.

Shanking things and aggro, IMO. What I try and do is assassinate specific targets. If there''s a spellcaster attached to a mob, I hunt it down and give it a good kick. I then start to build charges and finish it off. If I can, I''ll also try for a Garrotte before combat ""begins."" If there''s no caster, I pick the biggest target and Gouge it, then start building charges to kill it off. I also try and sneak in a few Backstabs. After that, I help clean up the trash, so to speak.

I think most WoW classes are flexible enough that you can bring your own playing style to groups independant of the class you play. I play as kind of an ""overseer"". I usually keep and eye on everyone else and help whoever is taking too many hits. As a healer, obviously, you heal them or cast a heal over time and then nuke the offending mob if its near death. From what I know of rogues, I would try to help obliterate the main target as fast as possible. I would also keep an eye on the healers and mages. If any party member draws too much aggro, I would gouge the mobs attacking him/her.

Rogues can tank 1 mob efficiently. Warriors and paladins can sustain 2-3 efficiently. So if a warrior pulls 3, I would make sure I gouged at least one of them and hit them so that they are pounding me while I reassist the main tank with the main target.

Its completely situational. Even at half health, you know you can take hits better than a mage at full. Plus a freed up mage can in return help your party a great deal. You have played these games before. You know how to balance when to take hits. I think the only thing that might hold you up is preconceptions about rogues and casters never taking hits. WoW doesnt work that way, thankfully.