Xbox Live number one selling point is the level playing field it provides. You''re not doing better because your 500$ video card gives you 20fps more than the other guy, he''s not doing better because his 100$ laser mouse is more accurate than your 10$ ball mouse, the other kid isn''t doing better because he spent 3 days tweaking his config file with tweaks and scripts. Everybody is playing with the exact same hardware and software. This Smartjoy frag thing ruins it.
If you really have to turn your Xbox into a PC because PC''s are so cool one ain''t enough it''s none of by god damn business, as long as it doesn''t force me to do the same to stay competitive. Since Halo 2 will always match you with people of about the same skill level online it wouldn''t be a problem but we''re talking about setting up a clan here, and although I play mainly for fun, I''ll admit that I''ll pick winning over losing any day of the week. There is no way anyone with a gamepad can compete against people with a keyboard/mouse combo. So what are my options ? Bring the Xbox from the living room to the computer room, hook it up to my PC monitor, keyboard and mouse? Or stay in the comfort of my living room and respawn every 5 seconds?
There is no way anyone with a gamepad can compete against people with a keyboard/mouse combo.
We still don''t know how well Halo 2 will play with the joypad/keyb adaptor. Sometimes it''s discussed as though the adaptor''s users could only be cheaters. I don''t think that''s fair. I''m only interested in it because I don''t like FPSs with a joypad, not because it''s going to make me better than anyone else.
I have one of those SmartJoy Frags coming too. Woot!
M/K will not work as good as on a pc however cause there is not native support.
Anyway they need to make a pc-console. Price it higher than a regular console. Throw more memory in there and a hard drive. But make it for playing pc-type games with a mouse/keyboard and monitor. No more awkward controller stuff and dumbed down games. But with the console selling pts of standardized hardware. No more driver problems. Incompatibilities. Reformats. etc.
I''ve found, in playing console FPS (and third person shooters), that the ""gap"" in aiming ability between mouse/kb and console controller is most largely due to the fact that people have been controlling shooters with mouse/kb since Doom & Quake, and thus have years and years of experience.
People are complaining that they ""suck"" with controllers. Well, you sucked with mouse and keyboard back in the day too. You could barely keep your damn crosshairs level. When you first typed ""+mlook"" in the Quake console, you spasmed around the map like you were having a seizure. Try to remember that time, and put the same level of patience into working on your aim with the controller - instead of bailing with either the ""I suck at controllers"" or the ""controller aiming itself sucks"" cop-outs.
We still don''t know how well Halo 2 will play with the joypad/keyb adaptor. Sometimes it''s discussed as though the adaptor''s users could only be cheaters. I don''t think that''s fair. I''m only interested in it because I don''t like FPSs with a joypad, not because it''s going to make me better than anyone else.
Reviews have been very good so far, so we have a pretty good idea on how it will work with Halo 2. You might not want it for the wrong reasons but it will give you an edge online anyway.
Anyway, it''s there and there is nothing I can do about it, so I''ll just stfu and see how it goes.
Green,
Using Legion''s logic, it''s possible that an occasional SmartJoy user could be beaten by a regular joypad user. I''d likely be an occasional player.
Also, I''m inclined to think the SmartJoy will initially be a niche product and, even in the long run, the majority of people you play with be joypad users; casual gamers.
I can tell you that there hasn''t been a propogation of SmartJoy people running up the ranks in SOCOM II. Those of us that are top-level players aren''t getting run up by mouse/kb players.
But these are new products, so we''ll see what happens.
I can say that in SOCOM II, an ""occasional SmartJoy user"" would still taste my evil. 
I imagine the same will indeed be the case in Halo 2 with the strong players there.
Using Legion''s logic, it''s possible that an occasional SmartJoy user could be beaten by a regular joypad user. I''d likely be an occasional player.
Of course but let''s compare apples to apples, we''re talking about Halo 2 gamers serious enough about it to be in a clan here.
Anyway I said I was going to stfu, stop pushing me! 
Xbox Live number one selling point is the level playing field it provides. You''re not doing better because your 500$ video card gives you 20fps more than the other guy, he''s not doing better because his 100$ laser mouse is more accurate than your 10$ ball mouse, the other kid isn''t doing better because he spent 3 days tweaking his config file with tweaks and scripts. Everybody is playing with the exact same hardware and software. This Smartjoy frag thing ruins it.
Then by extension, a guy who has a 46"" plasma TV and a surround sound setup and an ergonomical Logitech controller is at better odds than a sap with a dingy 27"" tube with a single mono speaker in it, and a $7 MadCatz gamepad.
I''ve found, in playing console FPS (and third person shooters), that the ""gap"" in aiming ability between mouse/kb and console controller is most largely due to the fact that people have been controlling shooters with mouse/kb since Doom & Quake, and thus have years and years of experience.
People are complaining that they ""suck"" with controllers. Well, you sucked with mouse and keyboard back in the day too. You could barely keep your damn crosshairs level. When you first typed ""+mlook"" in the Quake console, you spasmed around the map like you were having a seizure. Try to remember that time, and put the same level of patience into working on your aim with the controller - instead of bailing with either the ""I suck at controllers"" or the ""controller aiming itself sucks"" cop-outs.
gd pts man. some of that is definitely true. I remember going from keyboard only to keyboard/mouse in pc games. There was definitely an adjustment period.
however, I think inherently the mouse is a more precise aiming control. There''s a reason no one plays with a controller in pc fps games. There''s a reason auto-aim is very prevalent in console games. There is a reason you don''t have to put the cursor right on a target to hit it in console games.
And I think there is more to this issue than just precision and aiming. The controller brings with it a different playing style. I think mouse/keyboard users are used to much quicker play. You can turn quicker. YOu can switch weapons quicker. With a controller I can''t react to situations as quick as my mind wants to. And it''s not just cause I''m not as good with a controller. IT''s cause the controller itself is slower. I have to adapt my play to it.
Last when I went from keyboard to keyboard/mouse it was cause the mouse was superior to keyboard aiming. AS I ''go'' from keyboard/mouse to controller I don''t feel that I am going to a controller cause it''s the better system. I am only going to the controller cause that''s all that is available on the xbox (at least until this smartjoy frag product.)
Anyway I think they should let the market decide and make games that support both types of controls.
Then by extension, a guy who has a 46"" plasma TV and a surround sound setup and an ergonomical Logitech controller is at better odds than a sap with a dingy 27"" tube with a single mono speaker in it, and a $7 MadCatz gamepad.
The size of the screen is purely cosmetic, I really don''t think it gives an advantage. The surround sound setup might help a little and why the hell would you use a crappy 7$ controller when the one provided with the console is the best you can get? Next!
Dude, the surround sound helps immensely. I remember how dramatic it was when i fired up Socom 2 for the first time after I got it. It''s a definite advantage when you can aurally tell where the enemy is around you without having to rely just on sight.
The size of the screen does help a lot too I find, coming from a guy who used to game on a 32"" Sony going to a 120"" projector.. it''s awesome 4 player split screen when you don''t have to strain your eyes as each person has their own 50""+ TV
But then again, if you''re good it doesn''t matter if you''re gaming on a 3"" LCD using an Atari 2600 joystick.
If you have widescreen you do get more peripheral vision so that is another advantage.
however, I think inherently the mouse is a more precise aiming control. There''s a reason no one plays with a controller in pc fps games.
I would argue these two statements as not directly related. Mouse control was an obvious choice for early FPS because every computer had one, and gamepads were few and far between.
Is a mouse more precise? Yes, to a degree. However, I would argue disadvantages to both. It''s very easy to overcompensate in aiming with a mouse. It''s very easy to be thrown off your aim with a flinch. Some people have just gotten so used to the control that these issues were left in the dust a few game generations ago.
There''s a reason auto-aim is very prevalent in console games.
Not online shooters. I''ve seen auto-aim plenty in single player PC games as well. It caters to the casual gamer on both platforms.
One thing though: most people don''t take the time to tinker with the acceleration and sensitivity settings in games to help tune the gamepad control. In many games, you can set these settings so high that you can go from point ""A"" to point ""B"" nearly as fast as you can with the mouse. But many people don''t do this, because it requires them to attain a light touch for controlled movements, instead of just always pushing the thumbsticks to their extremes.
I will concede, however, that some games don''t quite permit this. FPS thumbstick control is still in a state of growth, and it continues to get better. I will argue that, when done right, gamepad control can stand up very well against mouse control. Not superior, but not inherently inferior either.
Dude, the surround sound helps immensely. I remember how dramatic it was when i fired up Socom 2 for the first time after I got it. It''s a definite advantage when you can aurally tell where the enemy is around you without having to rely just on sight.
Okay Dude, it helps a lot.
The size of the screen does help a lot too I find, coming from a guy who used to game on a 32"" Sony going to a 120"" projector.. it''s awesome 4 player split screen when you don''t have to strain your eyes as each person has their own 50""+ TV.
Who talked about 4 player split screen? Yeah, besides you.
If you have widescreen you do get more peripheral vision so that is another advantage.
Yeah I guess so.
But would you compare any of these advantages to the edge a mouse and keyboard combo provides over a gamepad? Come on.
Why won''t anyone release a gamepad with a trackball in place of the right analog stick. That''d work!
I worry a bit about the Happy Smart Fun Frag Tittie Joy thing too, personally. I was a pivotal force for converting legions of people from keyboard-only control to keyboard+mouse back in the Marathon days. It wasn''t hard, I''d just pound the stuffing out of them over and over as they attempted to track me with their constant-rate-of-turn keyboard stuff. I''d blow past them, they''d miss a shot, they''d press A or D to turn around and in the time it took them to rotate halfway I''d have snapped around and shotgunned them in the ass.
Gamepads are somewhat similar if more analog than keyboards. And yes, you can bump up the sensitivity of the gamepad to compensate. I think Bungie did a great job with the control on Halo and I think they will have improved it significantly in Halo 2 if the videos are any indication. I think they have the stock controllers figured out, and there''s such tasty amounts of acceleration and auto-aiming that it''s 1) unobtrusive and 2) effective. As such, I don''t think the playing field will be quite as unfair as it could be on a poorly implemented controller scheme.
And as people have said, all it will take to throw off the Smart Joy thing is a cap on maximum rotation speed, regardless of input. Yes, mousers will still have arguably finer control than gamepadders, but the 180-degree flick may simply not be available. Any amount of restriction on maximum turn-rate is going to throw them off, I think, as even a moderately fast attempt to sling the mouse around will result in a unreliable amount of turn.
I guess we''ll see!
Happy Smart Fun Frag Tittie Joy
That sounds like a much cooler product.
I swear ColdForged is a marketing genius!
[quote=""Mr.Green""]
Okay Dude, it helps a lot. :)
Uh, yeah I was doing my.. er .. Bill and Ted impression. Ok, gotta cut back on the dude usage.
Who talked about 4 player split screen? Yeah, besides you. ;)
*looks around* hmm, no one! But when playing on that big screen it''s easier to differentiate a small blob moving in the distance, because it''s been magnified to a big blob
If you have widescreen you do get more peripheral vision so that is another advantage.
Yeah I guess so.
Not my quote.. WTF!~
But would you compare any of these advantages to the edge a mouse and keyboard combo provides over a gamepad? Come on.
No. Absolutely not. A flick of the wrist can''t compare to a ""gradual"" turning movement of a thumbstick. But that''s not to say that you can''t become a fsking god when you learn to adapt to the thumbsticks.
Ooh.. and you get rumble too
Like someone said a while ago, if Bungie doesn''t already have something in mind for the SmartJoy Frags [MAN that''s a bad name,] they will figure something out if they ever have a problem. I guess the easiest way would be to ''patch'' the game by limiting the maximum speed of the X/Y movements, so you could use a mouse/keyboard, but it wouldn''t me much of an advantage in terms of speed. In terms of accuracy, I really don''t think it''s all that much of an advantage, really. Halo uses a ''cone of fire'' system, not per-pixel accuracy. At that point, as Legion said, it''s just skill and practice. Console FPS''s in their current form are still relatively new, at least compaired to PC ones.
Uh, yeah I was doing my.. er .. Bill and Ted impression. Ok, gotta cut back on the dude usage.
Dude, I was just teasing you. Those english language subtleties are pretty irrelevant to a french canadian dude like me.
Anyway, sorry for hijacking my own thread. I have faith in the Bungie Gods, I''m sure everything will be just fine.
Dude, but isn''t Dudette french?
Seriously though, I stopped saying dude for several years (ie. post-grunge) but only lately it''s been resurfacing. Don''t ask me why, it scares me. I called my girlfriend that the other day (dude, you''re blocking the tv!).
I need one of those electrical collars so if I say dude too much, I get zapped.
And yes, sorry for the thread hi-jack but I''m doped on a lot of extra strength neo-citran right now and it''s making me feel all light headed and stuff. Yah!
And yes, sorry for the thread hi-jack but I''m doped on a lot of extra strength neo-citran right now and it''s making me feel all light headed and stuff. Yah!
Come on, we know where you come from. Vancouver. You definitely took something that makes you say dude a lot and feel all light headed but it sure as hell ain''t neo-citran. 
"trip1eX" wrote:however, I think inherently the mouse is a more precise aiming control. There''s a reason no one plays with a controller in pc fps games.
I would argue these two statements as not directly related. Mouse control was an obvious choice for early FPS because every computer had one, and gamepads were few and far between.
Is a mouse more precise? Yes, to a degree. However, I would argue disadvantages to both. It''s very easy to overcompensate in aiming with a mouse. It''s very easy to be thrown off your aim with a flinch. Some people have just gotten so used to the control that these issues were left in the dust a few game generations ago.
There''s a reason auto-aim is very prevalent in console games.Not online shooters. I''ve seen auto-aim plenty in single player PC games as well. It caters to the casual gamer on both platforms.
One thing though: most people don''t take the time to tinker with the acceleration and sensitivity settings in games to help tune the gamepad control. In many games, you can set these settings so high that you can go from point ""A"" to point ""B"" nearly as fast as you can with the mouse. But many people don''t do this, because it requires them to attain a light touch for controlled movements, instead of just always pushing the thumbsticks to their extremes.
I will concede, however, that some games don''t quite permit this. FPS thumbstick control is still in a state of growth, and it continues to get better. I will argue that, when done right, gamepad control can stand up very well against mouse control. Not superior, but not inherently inferior either.
First, it''s easier to overcompensate aiming a controller than a mouse. Not the other way around.
Second, I still don''t see anybody using controllers for pc fps games. They''ve been out for years now and I''ve never seen anybody do this. You know how it was when folks went from keyboard only to keyboard/mouse. That switch came fast and furious.
Third, I do think the controller is inherently inferior. If you''ve played both fps console and pc games extensively I think most everyone would agree that console games give you alot of help in the aiming dept.
Now you don''t necessarily need this to make the games competitive and fun (cause it''s mostly all relative) but it''s there.
I play both Raven Shield for the pc and R63:BA for the xbox. Now from my experience, the xbox game doesn''t make you pinpoint your cursor exactly on your target. It''s more of a ''in the ball park'' action. There is only one reason that it''s this way. And that is cause it''s easier to aim with a mouse.
Then there''s the fact the mouse turns quicker.
A couple other reasons why mouse/keyboard is inherently superior.....
Number of buttons/keys. It''s faster to hit one key then to shift-cycle.
Also the number of keys/buttons that you can hit (aka actions that you can perform) without having to stop aiming, looking and/or moving is at least 3 or 4x higher with a mouse/keyboard setup than with a controller.
Of course but let''s compare apples to apples, we''re talking about Halo 2 gamers serious enough about it to be in a clan here.
Depends how serious the clan is. I think a lot of people will join a ''clan'' that''s more like a group of people that play together regularly, rather than a group of people that play together regularly, train together consistently and often have organised competitions against similar groups.
In otherwords I think this lot want to be in a Cl4|\\| K0z 175 L13|< k3Wl, D00d.
I think most of us here on GWJ have played more than our fair share of games over the past 20+ years, considering the older age on this board.
That being said, I love a good FPS. Only a couple spring to mind that have actually been fun to play on a console - Goldeneye, Timesplitters, and Halo, as well as maybe a couple more that were enjoyable.
When I go for the headshot snipe in Halo, I don''t feel like I''m targetting a general area, I feel like I''ve successfully sniped someone in the head. I know there''s many technical reasons that a per pixel keyboard/mouse setup is more accurate, but after playing many, many FPS in my time, it just feels
good with certain console games. The controller becomes an extension, and not once have I felt upset because it''s innacurate. I would simply stop playing console FPS if that was the case.
Yes, it takes a few rounds to get into console FPS after spending numerous hours on the PC, I used to play a lot of Enemy Territory then go back to Halo, and my first reactions were ""damn this is slow"". But it''s a different playing style, and even then you can adjust the sensitivity to give it more of that mouselook feel.
Halo on my Xbox:
Nice and comfortable sprawled out on the couch. Massive screen. Excellent surround sound. The most fun I''ve ever had with my friends and a video game - period.
Halo on my PC:
Snappier. Feels a bit more responsive when dishing out headshots with my pistol. Quick 180 rotation to tag that jerk behind you who''s taking cheap shots. Hunched over my monitor for 4-6 hours at a time. Cramped wrists. Very stiff neck. Very poor posture. Usually end up feeling more headache strain after intensive sessions. Lack of quality surround sound. Smaller, but higher resolution screen is still very effective as it''s crisper, but still requires you to get a bit closer than you should.
Either way, arguing about what''s better is a waste of time, and in no way determines how hardcore you are. Halo is awesome on the Xbox and awesome on the PC. Both have a distinctive play style, both rock when you get accustomed to them.
Definitely no doubt you can fun playing both console and pc.
My only argument is the scientific fact that mouse/keyboard is a more effective/efficient controlling system for fps games if you directly compared the two systems as they currently are.
Kinda like using an aluminum baseball bat vs a wooden baseball bat. Is baseball any more or less fun to play in college then in the pros? Debatable and subjective. What isn''t subjective tho is that the aluminum bat hits the ball farther. I believe science can be used to declare the mouse/keyboard more effective than a controller.
My argument is merely for the sake of advancement of Science in this area and not intended to say you''re crazy for playing console fps games.
I own both an xbox and pc. Tho I prefer the pc for fps games. And have had more fun with the pc. I have a comfortable chair and I sit up straight. Also have 5.1 speakers (logitech z-680) and Sennheiser headphones. And 800x600 on up makes everything so much clearer. Also the closeness to the monitor adds to the fps experience imo. And I detest split screen. But this is in and of itself outside the mouse/keyboard vs controller superiority debate.
First, it''s easier to overcompensate aiming a controller than a mouse. Not the other way around.
Someone''s smoking crack. The gamepad input offers fairly uniform acceleration, instead of a flick-of-the-wrist that goes from ""right on target"" to ""way off"" by flicking about 1/8"" too far.
Second, I still don''t see anybody using controllers for pc fps games.
Of course not. PC games aren''t made for gamepads. Gamepad games require intuitive button-mapping and assigning multiple context-sensitive functionality to buttons. PC games are made with the expectation of a keyboard and more keys than you know what to do with. Even if someone likes gamepad control, it''s too much of a hassle to use one in, say, UT2004.
Plus, there''s no reason to. They don''t offer an ADVANTAGE. They''re just not blatently inferior, like you seem to imply.
Finally, there are so few gamepads for PCs that are of the same quality as the PS2 or Xbox pads.
You know how it was when folks went from keyboard only to keyboard/mouse. That switch came fast and furious.
Keyboards have no analog input at all. Plus, you''re talking about two peripherals sitting right there for every PC. The comparison is invalid.
Third, I do think the controller is inherently inferior. If you''ve played both fps console and pc games extensively I think most everyone would agree that console games give you alot of help in the aiming dept.
Join me in SOCOM.
I won''t argue that there are console shooters that offer plenty of aiming help, but you''re drawing a flawed conclusion that this is proof of gamepad inaccuracy. There are plenty of counterproofs against this.
A couple other reasons why mouse/keyboard is inherently superior.....Number of buttons/keys. It''s faster to hit one key then to shift-cycle.
(more stuff cut)
Pick your argument. Either argue about precision, or argue about something else. Don''t introduce things not related to the original topic.
*places chin on hands*
Are you guys planning to get really fired up about this?
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