<"Insert MMO Game Name Here> and you

So, what's the deal? I guess I am too cheap and too cynical from all the blown launches (WW2O, AO, AC, SWG, etc. etc. etc.) to but a 40.00 (USD) game and then get hit with a monthly fee. Closest I came to this was NWN and that was an amazing time sink.

Hell, one of the computer game rags listed out the monthly nut for some of these games and you could literally buy a new game every 3 months with the cash you drop on some of these MMO Games.

*looks to the future with Rome:TW, Port Royal 2, Tribes 3, plus additional game play content for UT2k4*

What am I missing here?

"CEJ" wrote:

So, what''s the deal? I guess I am too cheap and too cynical from all the blown launches (WW2O, AO, AC, SWG, etc. etc. etc.) to but a 40.00 (USD) game and then get hit with a monthly fee. Closest I came to this was NWN and that was an amazing time sink.

Hell, one of the computer game rags listed out the monthly nut for some of these games and you could literally buy a new game every 3 months with the cash you drop on some of these MMO Games.

*looks to the future with Rome:TW, Port Royal 2, Tribes 3, plus additional game play content for UT2k4*

What am I missing here?

Hey, your not alone CEJ. Not at all. I can''t quite get to the point where I will willingly part with $20-50 for a CD, then be forced to buy a subscription.

From what I have seen, none of these games have done anything fresh gameplay wise to warrant the monthly tithe, especially when you can go online and play most games freely today.

It''s been discussed before, but the fact that you often play an MMO exclusively of all other games, not just other MMOs, means that you spend less money for your gaming pleasure. For most folks.
I saved a buttload of cash when I was playing EQ and DAoC, because for less than $150/year, I was totally set for gaming, plus the one-time $50 box. How many folks here buy only $200 worth of games per year? For new console titles that''s only 4-5 games.

Per year.
If you buy into the whole expansion thing, then you''re looking at another $50 annually, so the consoler is now at 5-6 games.

Per year.
And no permanence of accomplishment, no persistent community, no ongoing advancement, none of the old-school RPG stuff that''s made even more longlasting by having a persistent world.

So, for about 3 years, I spent a mere $600 dollars to play games.
No sense in talking about the PC(actually, with MMOs, you can often be further behind the tech curve than your typical FPS player) or console, as I''d have bought the PC anyway for work and the broadband connection is needed for online consoling and would also have been bought for work as well.

If you want to try an MMO but don''t want to shell out, it''s pretty easy to get into betas, or there''s Rubies of Eventide, which I enjoyed in beta, then they went live and tried to charge, I think, then closed, then a pair of devs bought it and put it up on a Free basis, though if you pay to be a member of Gentry, you get a few perks, and they have charity drives when they need new equipment. I liked the character system. You might too. Not 2nd gen graphics, but still not bad.

At any rate, it goes back to previous threads and the truism that you actually spend less money on games when you play a pay-to-play MMO. Odd, but true, at least for many folks.

Well, in my perspective, I pay $10 a month for a unique game wherein I feel part of a community. I only play one MMO, however, so I''m probably not the best judge of this sort of thing.

Well, most folks are hooked on CoH and a ton of you folks have been playing WoW (per XFire).

Now, to address Duck''s comments on per year cost. I tend not to buy day 1 games. Thus, I''m not getting hit for 59.95 per title. I like to wait for a review or three so I don''t get stuck with a nother freakin'' Black and White Editors choice PoS.

I''m also a cheap SOB so I tend to shop prices out a bit (see previous posts on Ground Control 2).

Ok. So, that said, I go out and buy UT2k4. Drop about 35.00 on this title and play it for about 6-8 weeks. Now, after a while, it gets old, so I go and download some of the new mods for it (thanks again to Mateo and those who pointed me at Alien Swam for UT 2k4). Now, you literally can play through UT2k4 for a year switching to the various mods and back. Now account for demos and you now break your game play up some.

Ok, so back to another example. Neverwinter Nights. I helped work on and host the Valley of Shrouds PW. A good friend of mine from my Warlords III days helped build and script the world while 2 or 3 others created content for it. I droped 50.00 for the title (a day one purchase I just could not resist but the exception that proves the rule) and another 35 for each expansion pack. This game took me from its release date to literally this past June. So, NWN coist me less to play than your 150.00 in MRC for MMO''s. While probably being as close to a time sink as some of these are.

Ducki, your argument holds water but only for those out there that buy lots and lots of new titles each month. Some of us are not nearly as impulsive with our purchases. Even still, some MMO launches were something less than spectacular and thus, you''re paying for a beta each month (Galazies, WWIIOnline, Anarchy Online, etc.).

NOTE: You don''t have to pay 10.00 (USD) a month to be a member of the community. Look at the NWN fans or even here.

You might as well go shouting into the wind, CEJ. You can''t change them. It''s like telling a room full of smokers how bad cigarettes are for their health - it does no good.

I don''t believe it''s a matter of money. I''ve lost a few XBC members to MMORPG''s, and I have to say that they spend a LOT less money on gaming than they used to, but which way is cheapest doesn''t really matter either way.

I just miss talking with them about the latest games that have come out.

My one friend has become a major evercrack addict over the last year and half. She tells me that EverQuest 2 has some real challenges ahead of it, because most people she talks to in the game don''t plan on moving over to it after ""investing"" so much in EQ1.

""Investing so much into it"" is what I''ve heard her say a few times. How can she leave now? She''s invested. I don''t really understand that thinking, because in my book of logic, that is the VERY REASON you should go.

Ducki, your argument holds water but only for those out there that buy lots and lots of new titles each month.

No, it holds a lot more water than that. 1 release-day priced game($50) every other month is as expensive as 1 MMO and expansions. If you buy more than 1 game every other month or 1 half-price game per month, you''ve outspent your MMOG addict friends.
(Edit: That first sentence sounds a lot more argumentative than I meant it. Should have said ""I feel that it holds more..."")

Even still, some MMO launches were something less than spectacular and thus, you''re paying for a beta each month (Galazies, WWIIOnline, Anarchy Online, etc.).

Entirely true, but I don''t buy games at lauch. Rather, I don''t buy PC games at launch. Especially MMOs. As the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the crowdedness of the newbie areas in the WoW stress test made clear, MMOs are like cattle drives at launch. I''d rather skip that bit, but MMOs hold their price better than many games.

NOTE: You don''t have to pay 10.00 (USD) a month to be a member of the community. Look at the NWN fans or even here.

A different exception to prove a different rule.

I don''t believe it''s a matter of money. I''ve lost a few XBC members to MMORPG''s, and I have to say that they spend a LOT less money on gaming than they used to, but which way is cheapest doesn''t really matter either way.

Being an MMO addict isn''t a conscious cost-benefit analysis decision, but the OP was all about cost....

Hell, one of the computer game rags listed out the monthly nut for some of these games and you could literally buy a new game every 3 months with the cash you drop on some of these MMO Games.

Which was where my post came from.
One game with community, persistence, (arguably) support, long-term advancement, huge, handcrafted worlds....
OR
One new (and likely disposable) MSRP game every 3 months.
I was merely explaining the fact that there''s not really anything to ""get"" as far as the cost goes. Once you start playing 1 game exclusively, you often end up paying less (long term) for your gaming habit than someone that''s not paying a subscription fee.

Of course, console gamers that have an XBox with Live! and that buy 1 new-priced game every 2-3 months are paying more than just about any other over-generalized ""average"" gamer demographic. Nothing wrong with that, but I personally don''t ""get"" the XBox subscribers thing any more than I ""get"" the FilePlanet subscribers.

My one friend has become a major evercrack addict over the last year and half. She tells me that EverQuest 2 has some real challenges ahead of it, because most people she talks to in the game don''t plan on moving over to it after ""investing"" so much in EQ1.

""Investing so much into it"" is what I''ve heard her say a few times. How can she leave now? She''s invested. I don''t really understand that thinking, because in my book of logic, that is the VERY REASON you should go.

This is true, and EQ2''s _stated_ target market are not the current, faithful, invested EQ1 players, but the cancelled subscription players and the free-30-days-only folks.

That said, I can guarantee, the minute her guild takes a vote and decides to move to another MMO, she''ll go with them. Guilds tend to move as a group and you either go with the flow or you lose contact with your friends. If her friends stay, she''ll stay.

Of course, console gamers that have an XBox with Live! and that buy 1 new-priced game every 2-3 months are paying more than just about any other over-generalized ""average"" gamer demographic. Nothing wrong with that, but I personally don''t ""get"" the XBox subscribers thing any more than I ""get"" the FilePlanet subscribers.

Just read somewhere that the Xbox has the highest software sales per unit. i.e. Xbox users buy more games per machine than PS2 or GC.

Which in the Razor/Blades business model is pretty important.

Microsoft just needs to next time sell much more Razors in order to then sell a crapload of Blades.

"duckilama" wrote:

It''s been discussed before, but the fact that you often play an MMO exclusively of all other games, not just other MMOs, means that you spend less money for your gaming pleasure. For most folks.
I saved a buttload of cash when I was playing EQ and DAoC, because for less than $150/year, I was totally set for gaming, plus the one-time $50 box. How many folks here buy only $200 worth of games per year? For new console titles that''s only 4-5 games.

<snip..>

This is my primary gripe with MMOs - and something that Ridlin was getting at. When playing an MMO, you develop a form of gaming tunnel vision. Whether it be because you want to keep up with your group or feel that it''s necessary to get the most out of your $12.95/month, you almost feel obligated at times to play.

During my 2 year stint in DAoC (and to lesser extent, my time in UO) I can count on a Simpson''s hand the number of games I purchased. Can you imagine missing a gem like BO3 just because you wanted to level your Undead Dark Gnome Shaman-Knight?

With that being said, I will be picking up WoW and playing through my free month, at least. I have hopes that it''ll be casual friendly enough for me to play once or twice a week and still be fun. Once you''ve ""broken the seal"" on paying a monthly fee, it''s not so hard to do again. It ranks right up there with all of those other ''just-barely-cheap-enough-to-justify'' types of costs (TiVo, NetFlix, etc).

Chum

I think Ducki has summed it up pretty well, so I won''t reiterate on his points. I have a couple more though. UT2k4 and NWN are the exceptions, not the rule. It''s very rare to find a regular game that can hold your interest for months on end and comes with tons of good community made content. Also, in addition to a persistent community, most MMOs offer an expansive world to explore. NWN was not expansive (it was linear and rather small), and if you''re jumping from mod to mod, that''s not a persistent world, even if you use the same character. Many people like the opportunity to stick with a character for a long time, growing their abilities and reputation (I''m not one of them by the way, I''m a tinkerer when it comes to characters--always building new ones), in an environment where your abilities and reputation matter.

I will agree that many MMORPGs are not worth their monthly fee. EQ doesn''t really give you anything for your money, except server support and nerfs. All major content comes through expansions which you have to buy. Other games offer content that makes your monthly fee feel more like buying expansions (AC, AC2, CoH, E&B) than just paying to play the game.

Really though, it comes down to what you like. I can''t afford to buy many games, even half-price sale games, so for me MMORPGs are a good value (and thankfully I enjoy them). I''ve been playing City of Heroes since January 7th of this year. In that time I''ve only bought a handful of other games, and haven''t played any of them for more than a couple of weeks. The first 4 months I played for free, and the 5th month was included with my box, so I''ve only spent a little over $100 for over 9 months of gaming. Sounds good to me.

Edit: Tired. Typing not good!

$50 + $12/month (6 month sign-up plan) = $122

I can almost guarantee I can get more enjoyment out of 6 months of WoW than I can from 3 ($50) FPS games equaling $150.

This is my primary gripe with MMOs - and something that Ridlin was getting at. When playing an MMO, you develop a form of gaming tunnel vision. Whether it be because you want to keep up with your group or feel that it''s necessary to get the most out of your $12.95/month, you almost feel obligated at times to play.

During my 2 year stint in DAoC (and to lesser extent, my time in UO) I can count on a Simpson''s hand the number of games I purchased. Can you imagine missing a gem like BO3 just because you wanted to level your Undead Dark Gnome Shaman-Knight?

You''re looking at it, it seems, through the eyes of a jaded, bitter MMOGer. Maybe the mass of MMOG players don''t play nightly out of obligation, but out of a sense of fun and accomplishment they get. I genuinely liked and enjoyed both EQ and DAoC right up until I cancelled DAoC because I had a baby on the way. I didn''t feel obligated to play, I played because it was fun, and I paid because, to me, it was worth it.

And you know what? I don''t regret not playing any of a number of stellar games that came out in that 3 year period. Ignorance is bliss. They''ll end up as abandonware or freeware or retro compilation CDs or I''ll find them at a garage sale or the bargain bin.
Or I won''t. And I won''t care. I had fun for my gaming dollars and I don''t feel I''m in any sort of competition to play all the good games out there.

In fact, it would be pretty easy for someone trained in Debate to turn your obligation theory around on the idea of ""missing out"" on a good game. We''ve all participated in the ""too many games not enough time"" and the ""unfinished, unopened, dust-collecting games"" discussions. Who is giving the gaming industry more time-money based on a sense of obligation? Tough call.

All that, only for Flux to put it much more concisely and clearly. /sigh

On the most recent GameSpotting, some blogger called donutta talks about how he games for him, to have fun, and he couldn''t care less what others play. He puts it a bit more... bluntly and.... colorfully, but essentially, ""missing out"" on a good game isn''t that big a deal. I''d wager your average MMOGer will remember various exploits, raids, feats, quests longer and more clearly than most of us would remember any given moment from last quarter''s hottest game.
I could be wrong.
I''m surely opinionated.
Don''t forget the salt.

thats the biggest thing that I fear with WoW that I''ll get addicted again like I was to EQ for a year or so..

I lost a huge chunk of my life to that stupid game...

In the end I looked back and realized how much real life I missed out on because of that game.. Not to mention some really great non-MMOG games that came out around that time frame..

I''m really looking to temper my addiction this time.. plus I''ve arranged for leveling duties to be handled via proxy so I wont be tempted to play every night.

"TheGameguru" wrote:

thats the biggest thing that I fear with WoW that I''ll get addicted again like I was to EQ for a year or so..

I lost a huge chunk of my life to that stupid game...

In the end I looked back and realized how much real life I missed out on because of that game.. Not to mention some really great non-MMOG games that came out around that time frame..

I''m really looking to temper my addiction this time.. plus I''ve arranged for leveling duties to be handled via proxy so I wont be tempted to play every night.

I have the same problem GG and WoW has me worried because of it. I swore MMORPGs off after EQ, but deep down I have a feeling WoW is something I will buy. Games like WoW offer so many interesting twists and turns and evolutions that it will keep me busy for months and months.

During the stress test I realized what it is about these games that draws me in. It is the feeling of growth and accomplishment. I like having a toon to call my own that develops over time and becomes more and more powerful. I hope my marriage doesn''t suffer!

And while we''re on WoW, there''s a new batch of beta slots to compete for. I can''t actually GET to the actual contest page, because everyone else with a broadband connection is doing the same, but you should be able to at least look at the link here at nVidia''s nZone.

"TheGameguru" wrote:

I lost a huge chunk of my life to that stupid game...

In the end I looked back and realized how much real life I missed out on because of that game..

Did you enjoy the game? If so, how did you lose "" a huge chunk of your life""?

See, my issue is with the monthly fee, not with the obsession. If ou find a game that statisfies our gaming urges and is legtimately addictive, then that is a good thing. We spend all of our time searching out games to play, and in the glut of me-too titles, you find a gem. That''s a huzzah moment, not aw sh*t!

I guess it comes down to are you a gamer or a collector. Gamers, to my mind, don''t mind if better looking games than, say, Diablo II, comes along. They put in there time, play the game via each character class, and run out online and get hammered by some level 100 moron. They are having fun, nonetheless.

Now, a collector, wants ever title, chases the new and shiny, and generally is always looking for the next fix. You end up with a hundred games, playing Joint Ops because you can''t decide what to play, and wonder where all your money went. (BTW, this describes me, and only me. YMMV, or YEMV)

Nothing wrong with a legitimately fun timesink.

Did you enjoy the game? If so, how did you lose "" a huge chunk of your life""?

Theres a difference in playing a game for a few hours every night.. to playing until 4am in the morning and then dragging myself into work around 10am and then essentially being non-productive at work while I sit there and surf websites about EQ..

Then refusing to socialize with anyone on the weekends because I have this really important raid or some guild event that will require at least 9 hours of straight gaming.

As bad as I was addicted it amazed me that I read even worse stories on the addiction..

So yes looking back I did lose a significant chunk of my life... luckily I met my soon to be wife and was able to rip myself from the game and rejoin normal society.

I think I honestly missed several decent business oportunities and certainly many social ones...

But it does look like WoW should focus less on huge amounts of time required to accomplish much of anything and can be broken down into smaller managable chunks of time.

"duckilama" wrote:

<snip..>
In fact, it would be pretty easy for someone trained in Debate to turn your obligation theory around on the idea of ""missing out"" on a good game. We''ve all participated in the ""too many games not enough time"" and the ""unfinished, unopened, dust-collecting games"" discussions. Who is giving the gaming industry more time-money based on a sense of obligation? Tough call.
<snip..>
I could be wrong.
I''m surely opinionated.
Don''t forget the salt.

In re-reading the thread, I suppose I got a little off topic as my gripe had almost nothing to do with the money aspect (which was the original point of the post). As mentioned, I've paid for MMOs before and I plan on grabbing The Next Big Thing ™ – they can certainly be worth the price of admission.

In no way do I feel obligated to play every quarter''s Hot Game (tm), nor to play games simply because they sell 1 bagillion copies. However, I do feel like I missed out on a few great stories/experiences/communities because one game consumed a large majority of my time - even though I had fun playing that game. And to me, it's a large leap from being obligated to do something and lamenting about "missing out" on an experience.

I don''t hate MMOs, I wouldn''t even say I''m jaded, but I do hope that I can find one that won''t consume a disproportionally high amount of my time compared to the other games that I''m interested in. It''s very well likely that I''ll never find one that matches up with what I''m looking for.

Just my opinions.

<edited down as to not clutter the thread>

"GG" wrote:

luckily I met my soon to be wife and was able to rip myself from the game and rejoin normal society.

I would guess that it''s the significant others that help keep a lot of guys off heavy addiction. Significant others with good throwing arms in particular. I know that''s what held me off playing entirely too much DaoC back in the day.

The way I see it, I play what makes me happy. MMO''s make me happy I grow very bored with games quickly, and ever-changing content is the only way to keep me satisfied.

How do I justify the $15 a month you ask? Well, it costs a HECK of a lot less than all the partying I used to do. $15 would barely by a round of drinks. Now, for that same $15, I am able to have a full month''s worth of entertainment. Now, that''s not to say I don''t still go out, I''ve just toned it down a bit. Rather than going out 3-4 nights a week, I can go out once and be happy.

I know there''s been a ton of threads (and for all you MMO fans you''ll agree), that talk about ""What you can buy with $15"". Do these threads carry any merit? Not in my eyes. I realize that I can get other things for my $15, you just have to look at what will give you the most pleasure. If you played CoH once a week for a couple hours only, an MMO is not for you. Whenever I am not watching my daughter or out with friends, I''d much rather play an MMO than watch TV. When TV is over, you have not accomplished anything. When I am done playing an MMO for the night, I might have made a new friend, or gotten virtually drunk (smile), or at least completed something in-game that made me feel like I have furthered my character.

So ... I will now stop my rambling and what-not. I realize that everyone has their own view, and there IS no right answer. I''d like to think I''m right, but I''m probably wrong

Dudes and Dudettes...

Its only money...you''ll make more...

Enjoy what you want and and want what you enjoy!

If you played CoH once a week for a couple hours only, an MMO is not for you.

I disagree.
I don''t go to the theater, but what''s a movie ticket and popcorn and drinks for one nowadays? $15? Around that?

So, two hours per week, 4 weeks per month. Less than $2 per hour for the MMOG. Or one movie(in-theater) per month.
Hell, that''s even cheaper than renting movies at Blockbuster!
And the longer term commitment you make to play by buying 6-12 months at a time, the economy gets even better.
Even for the truly ""casual"" MMOG player.

Where else can you get professionally entertained for less than $2 per hour? Six Flags? The State Fair? The zoo?

Duck hit it right on the head.

The amount of money you pay per month for a MMOG is significantly less for almost any other entertainment.

The more you play the game the better your value too.

Even if you purchased a MMOG and played for the free month only you would get about as much gaming value out of a lot of if not more games.

MMOG are not for everybody and if you rather spend your $15 a month on a movie, TiVo, 1 lunch out, or what have you go for it but for those that like them it is a good deal.

--edit--

Oh and just for reference I just do not play all the games like you all do. Since Half-life for example I have purchased Unreal2, Halo, FarCry, and Doom3 in the FPS area. I think it is just a matter of taste in what games you like to play.

Asheron''s Call saved me a bunch of money...for awile. Now it''s my only MMO, but mostly because of a couple folks that I bonded with in it. AND the time I''ve put into my toon''s. It''s re-energized me a bit for I started a new character recently and my first mage. Fun!

But it did give me a different slant on buying and I got a bit more self control. Trying to be more selective and let many that I would of bought right off, go and wait till they become sale''s.

But I sample MMO''s when I can. CoH, EVE, AC 2, Horizons etc. and sample them quick so I can return the game if it''s not doing it for me (and usually doesn''t).

I still have a hard time paying a monthly nut for a game that requires a huge time commitment. I still burn an hour or so a night but not like the 3 hours + that I pumped into NWN. It''s a bit wacky but I understand, based on my former NWN addiction, what point you all are making.

I will post the monthly nut that Computer Games magazine had published just as an FYI.

Let me confuse the subject even more... I''m a huge NWN fan (one of the VOS developers/players along with CEJ) - now...toss in that I have a son (and daughters...), SO...to play with him, I have to buy another copy, and in cases pay fees. NWN...ran me 150 x 2 = 300 and we still sink time in. COH 50x2 plus the hefty monthly fee TIMES TWO. Heck, for the daughter I even do Toontown (only the 10$ fee x2 per month...thank you disney).

Is it worth it...the quality time I get with them...playing on teamspeak - well, NWN for $300 or COH for about $205 and counting or Toontown for about $200 and counting - HELL YES...

I guess the bottom line is what rocks your boat becomes the good value...and yeah, for all of us that have dropped $100 at a bar drinking with friends...I get a lot more out of my 200 in games than I do hitting bars or seeing movies (try with kids...$50 for a 1.5 hour movie) or eating dinner for 2 ($50) or 5 $80). Its all relative...so enjoy!

"CEJ" wrote:

I still have a hard time paying a monthly nut for a game that requires a huge time commitment. I still burn an hour or so a night but not like the 3 hours + that I pumped into NWN. It''s a bit wacky but I understand, based on my former NWN addiction, what point you all are making.

I will post the monthly nut that Computer Games magazine had published just as an FYI.

I do not ge though why you think it Requires a huge time commitment. Certainly they can be huge time sinks but they requir in reality no more time than any other game.

Games are a form of leisure and we play them for fun not because we are required to.

I often log on for an hour or less.

Is OK though if you do not find it worth it I find it hard to believe people pay for Portable MP3 players, TiVo or for Starbucks for example.

"maladen" wrote:
"CEJ" wrote:

I still have a hard time paying a monthly nut for a game that requires a huge time commitment. I still burn an hour or so a night but not like the 3 hours + that I pumped into NWN. It''s a bit wacky but I understand, based on my former NWN addiction, what point you all are making.

I will post the monthly nut that Computer Games magazine had published just as an FYI.

I do not ge though why you think it Requires a huge time commitment. Certainly they can be huge time sinks but they requir in reality no more time than any other game.

Games are a form of leisure and we play them for fun not because we are required to.

I often log on for an hour or less.

Is OK though if you do not find it worth it I find it hard to believe people pay for Portable MP3 players, TiVo or for Starbucks for example.

Well, I can progress through the GC2 campaign at my own leasure. I cannot keep up wth the guys (and gals) who pump 12 hours a day into a game and then get pissed off cuz your little PC can''t keep up. I agree about the leisure, but some of the time sink commitments just to stay at our with your group isn''t reasonable for me. This applies to teh MMO''s as well as NWN. The simple fact is, I don''t live in my mom''s basement and draw a disability check. I have a job, wife and kids that require my participation.

Also, it use to be, back in the good ol'' days, that you could buy a game with 60+ hours of game play in it. Hell, Baldurs Gate wasn''t that long ago and it had a 60+ hour campaign in it.

Now, you would have to buy the game and pay 18.00 a month for something like that. It''s not so much the cost as the principle of the thing. That and I am most definitly a cheap SOB.

See I have the wife, kids, morgage and all that too. So when I play these games I do not worry about keeping up with the Jones.

I play at my pace and I find people that play at my pace or I play with people who happen to be same level/working on same thing what have you but do not have this drive to keep up.

Now you can argue that you have some good friends that you like to play with and because they play a lot more than you it makes it hard if not impossible to play this game with you.

In those cases my expereince has been if they truely are friends then they have lowler level guys that they can play just when you are on or if possible help you catch up/give you gear and what not.

Yeah in the good ole days you really did get a lot of game in some sigle player games but not these days it seems. Even so those games generally have a set end where a MMOG does not and of course there is the playing with several thousand of your closest friends aspect.

By the way I look at it slightly different and think you can not really compare it to a single player game. I look at subscription games as a service and not like a standard game. The $50 or what ever you pay is the up front cost for getting the service then there is a monthly fee. We all have these in our lives these days, telephone, cable, or what have you. In this case it is an entertainment service. I agree it is not for everybody but as a time for cost thing it is realatively cheap. Heck it is cheaper than cabel TV that is for sure.