Illegal Immigration: Who's paying for this mess?

Ok. Well, let's see what you all have to say about this. It fascinates me that the rest of the US has a sort of detachment about the plight of California. Whether it's gas prices (US Avg is 1.87, California's is 1.98 but where I live, it's 2.05 or so) or Illegal Immigration.

A few months back, just after the Recall election, the LA Times wrote an article on the cost of illegal immigration on the state. Factors that were included were (1) cost in social services (read schools and education), humanitarian services (medical, living assistance for the disabled, food stamps) and support services (fire and police resources for crowded neighborhoods plus the impact on our jail system). These costs were countered by the tax revenue these undocumented workers generated.

The overall cost on the state was $5 billion (USD) in lost revenue. Not sure if you all have been paying attention, but we are bordering on being broke. Our new Governor is trying but has his hands tied by a very liberal, nay socialist (?), state assembly. The LA Times, one of the more liberal papers in the US, conceded that the bulk of undocumented works don't pay taxes, and those that due typically fall short of paying taxes due to their low annual income. The article stated that the average income of an illegal immigrant was about $12,000 per year. That is not a lot of cash to try and raise a family. Now factor in the real estate costs in this wacky State and you see an even more difficult picture for these people.

Now, that said, let's go back to the State and its limited revenue stream. We, as a state, have a finite amount of resources to distribute to our citizens in the form of schools, health care and social services. The cost to support a large community in the form of police, firemen and humanitarian aid is monumental. How can we, as a state, continue to bay benefits to those who have no legal claim to being here? I understand that the State use to be part of Mexico, but in thinking along those lines, should we not then just had that mass of real estate back to the Indians that use to dot the coast line? After all, the land belonged to the Native Americans first.

Back on topic, with almost 2.2 million requiring assistance in a state of 35.4 Million people at what point do you make the hard choice between those that are suppose to be here (naturally and legally) and those that are here illegally? This state and this country will have to address this issue of illegal immigration soon in that we have a finite amount of resources to distribute to not only our own citizens but the citizens of foreign countries. Damn, we're just a big ol' ATM for people.

Regardless, a bunch of our Republican Congressmen (and women) tried to get some bills through the house, but for the most part, the rest of the congressional leaders failed to see a need or desire to vote on these. Why would they assume that illegal immigrants filtering in through Mexico where no big deal? I assure you, the folks that want to hurt the US have no problem filtering in through our southern borders (Source, Source #2, and Source #3. So that said, why do our congressional leader tend to feel that this is a topic that can't be touched? Are we now so politically correct that we can no longer defend ourselves? Our leaders are so obsessed with the Hispanic vote that they ignore the over whelming expense associated with illegal immigration? What is the deal with racial profiling? I assure you when I fly to Seattle on Thursday, that if the security re-treads search my little girls bags, that I will loose what is left of my mind. If 2.2 million illegal immigrants are from Mexico and Central America, then why do you have to stop a German couple and ask them about their visa status?

With my kids filtering into the public school system it bothers me that our entire education system is foundering due to the language barrier. How many more books and supplies are needed? How many more teachers are needed to teach the children of 2.2 Million illegal immigrants?

God help you if you need to go to the ER. They're over crowded and the hospitals are going broke due to non-insured. The ER's have to treat anyone who shows up regardless of their ability to pay. How many illegal immigrants can afford health insurance?

Anyway, just my personal rant from "the crazy people out in California". At least we have a Governor that entertains you folks.

Source:
[list=1:3483ee9b35]
[*] A flawed approach on immigration by the Washington Post
[*] Border issues draw a crowd by Pasadena Star News
[*] Southern California's Border Patrol Pulled Back by NBC 4 News
[*] The Costs of Illegal Immigration to Arizonans - Executive Summary by the Federation of Immigration Reform
[*] Immigration Impact – California by the Federation of Immigration Reform
[/list:o:3483ee9b35]

Racial profiling makes sense.

Be careful.

"1Dgaf" wrote:
Racial profiling makes sense.

Be careful.

Come on now. We''re talking about immigrations, visas and security. Not about arresting some African American guy cuz he made the mistake of driving his BMW past the LAPD annual picnic.

Bottom line:
You have a choice.. whine about the taxes you pay to support illegal immigrants, or whine that if those illegal immigrants were not there your prices for food, restaurant, and other services would increase by alot. You have to choose between getting out there and mowing that lawn yourself, or paying for it in taxes. Your choice just make your voice heard.

"CEJ" wrote:
"1Dgaf" wrote:
Racial profiling makes sense.

Be careful.

Come on now. We''re talking about immigrations, visas and security. Not about arresting some African American guy cuz he made the mistake of driving his BMW past the LAPD annual picnic.

We are talking about a term that could bring a lot of bad sh*t down on to people. We have to be very, very careful when discussing these issues and, equally, we have to be very, very clear what we mean when we use certain phrases.

It''s not good to clarify things after the fact.

"Mayfield" wrote:

Bottom line:
You have a choice.. whine about the taxes you pay to support illegal immigrants, or whine that if those illegal immigrants were not there your prices for food, restaurant, and other services would increase by alot. You have to choose between getting out there and mowing that lawn yourself, or paying for it in taxes. Your choice just make your voice heard.

I do mow my lawn. You''re also assuming that those jobs would just go away. That there isn''t legal immigrants who want said same jobs. Come on, I call BS on that arguement altoghter. There is a teenage job crunch in this state due to the lack of entry level jobs that are traditionally filled by teenagers.

The fact of the matter, lawns will still be cut at or about the same money by citizens. These jobs payout at minimum wage so how would the costs go down with an illegal immigrant working the job.

"1Dgaf" wrote:
"CEJ" wrote:
"1Dgaf" wrote:
Racial profiling makes sense.

Be careful.

Come on now. We''re talking about immigrations, visas and security. Not about arresting some African American guy cuz he made the mistake of driving his BMW past the LAPD annual picnic.

We are talking about a term that could bring a lot of bad sh*t down on to people. We have to be very, very careful when discussing these issues and, equally, we have to be very, very clear what we mean when we use certain phrases.

It''s not good to clarify things after the fact.

Fair enough. Statement rescended.

"CEJ" wrote:
"Mayfield" wrote:

Bottom line:
You have a choice.. whine about the taxes you pay to support illegal immigrants, or whine that if those illegal immigrants were not there your prices for food, restaurant, and other services would increase by alot. You have to choose between getting out there and mowing that lawn yourself, or paying for it in taxes. Your choice just make your voice heard.

I do mow my lawn. You''re also assuming that those jobs would just go away. That there isn''t legal immigrants who want said same jobs. Come on, I call BS on that arguement altoghter. There is a teenage job crunch in this state due to the lack of entry level jobs that are traditionally filled by teenagers.

The fact of the matter, lawns will still be cut at or about the same money by citizens. These jobs payout at minimum wage so how would the costs go down with an illegal immigrant working the job.

I am NY, there is no teenage job crunch here.. every storefront in the mall or a restaurant has a help wanted sign up... and trust me there are plenty of illegal immigrants; they are discussing building a ""hiring point"" here for day laborers because the 7-11''s are getting pissed at having them hang out up front all morning.

Why do you think the government allows the illegal immigrants to stand on corners in the morning looking for jobs? Because it is appealing to the eye?? NO, because the businesses want them. Why do these businesses want them.. because the consumer does not want to pay for a well paid, legal labor workforce anymore. Without the bottomless well of illegal laborers how much do you think it would cost to get your lawn mowed by a legal businessman, when he has to pass along the cost of paying someone $12 an hour to mow your lawn instead of $7.. and that is not even counting on if he is paying the laborer on the books and laying out payroll taxes.

"CEJ" wrote:
"Mayfield" wrote:

Bottom line:
You have a choice.. whine about the taxes you pay to support illegal immigrants, or whine that if those illegal immigrants were not there your prices for food, restaurant, and other services would increase by alot. You have to choose between getting out there and mowing that lawn yourself, or paying for it in taxes. Your choice just make your voice heard.

I do mow my lawn. You''re also assuming that those jobs would just go away. That there isn''t legal immigrants who want said same jobs. Come on, I call BS on that arguement altoghter. There is a teenage job crunch in this state due to the lack of entry level jobs that are traditionally filled by teenagers.

The fact of the matter, lawns will still be cut at or about the same money by citizens. These jobs payout at minimum wage so how would the costs go down with an illegal immigrant working the job.

Illegal immigrant labor goes pretty far beyond mowing lawns, and extends well into areas where teenagers would not be eligible. How about everything produce item you buy at the supermarket, harvested by migrant illegal immigrants. How about the milk and chesse you buy, produced by farms that rely on migrant labor to function. Do you see teenagers becoming migrant laborers?

That could explain why alot of our Republican leaders just don''t want to rock the boat. Their contributers want the illegals to keep their labor costs down. Still, those same businesses have to pay taxes to provide seeing eye dog subsidies, food stamps and public education for these immigrants.

I am NY, there is no teenage job crunch here.. every storefront in the mall or a restaurant has a help wanted sign up... and trust me there are plenty of illegal immigrants; they are discussing building a ""hiring point"" here for day laborers because the 7-11''s are getting pissed at having them hang out up front all morning.

Hoover, AL wound up doing this (outside of B''ham) because the local Chevron wouldn''t allow them to mill around there anymore. Now they hang out at this picnic area outside of one of the fire stations. A buddy of mine that works for Level 3 said they use them if they get short-staffed on a work day. He said it''s crazy; you just pull up and hold up your fingers for how many you want, and they run out and hop in the truck.

"hubbinsd" wrote:
"CEJ" wrote:
"Mayfield" wrote:

Bottom line:
You have a choice.. whine about the taxes you pay to support illegal immigrants, or whine that if those illegal immigrants were not there your prices for food, restaurant, and other services would increase by alot. You have to choose between getting out there and mowing that lawn yourself, or paying for it in taxes. Your choice just make your voice heard.

I do mow my lawn. You''re also assuming that those jobs would just go away. That there isn''t legal immigrants who want said same jobs. Come on, I call BS on that arguement altoghter. There is a teenage job crunch in this state due to the lack of entry level jobs that are traditionally filled by teenagers.

The fact of the matter, lawns will still be cut at or about the same money by citizens. These jobs payout at minimum wage so how would the costs go down with an illegal immigrant working the job.

Illegal immigrant labor goes pretty far beyond mowing lawns, and extends well into areas where teenagers would not be eligible. How about everything produce item you buy at the supermarket, harvested by migrant illegal immigrants. How about the milk and chesse you buy, produced by farms that rely on migrant labor to function. Do you see teenagers becoming migrant laborers?

We saw this with prop 187 a few years ago and it was not the case. A lot of migrant laborers on the dairies and farms are working on visas. Besides, the majority of illegal immigrants gravitate to the urban centers (LA, San Diego, Santa Ana, Fresno, Sacramento, San Fransico, Bakersfield, etc.). There aren''t many farms and dairies left in these places.

SIDE NOTE: Dairies out here have moved away. You see them pushing farther and farther north. Most of the owners for these have sold out to real estate developers. The Dairies are now in northern and central CA or even out of state (Washington, Nevada and Oregon). Price of milk down here in So Cal, 3.50 to 4.00 per gal. So, illegal immigration isn''t keeping our food and milk costs down. If anything, the demand for these products has gone up and the cost of these items has followed.

"buzzvang" wrote:

Hoover, AL wound up doing this (outside of B''ham) because the local Chevron wouldn''t allow them to mill around there anymore. Now they hang out at this picnic area outside of one of the fire stations. A buddy of mine that works for Level 3 said they use them if they get short-staffed on a work day. He said it''s crazy; you just pull up and hold up your fingers for how many you want, and they run out and hop in the truck.

If you pull up to the local Auto Zone here and stop to take a call or change the radio, one or two day laborers will jump on it. Weither you want ''em to or not.

"buzzvang" wrote:
I am NY, there is no teenage job crunch here.. every storefront in the mall or a restaurant has a help wanted sign up... and trust me there are plenty of illegal immigrants; they are discussing building a ""hiring point"" here for day laborers because the 7-11''s are getting pissed at having them hang out up front all morning.

Hoover, AL wound up doing this (outside of B''ham) because the local Chevron wouldn''t allow them to mill around there anymore. Now they hang out at this picnic area outside of one of the fire stations. A buddy of mine that works for Level 3 said they use them if they get short-staffed on a work day. He said it''s crazy; you just pull up and hold up your fingers for how many you want, and they run out and hop in the truck.

I read somewhere that there are 40 of them around the country.. the only reason they are even discussing it around here is because of the crime that goes along with it.. with illegal laborers comes extortion, robbery, and there have been a few murders as well. The local gov''t does not want to be bothered with having to investigate these crimes so they figure an ounce of prevention (keeping them in one place and having the businessman register) is worth it.

In Boston, there isn''t a single restaurant that doesn''t use some level of illegal labor-its more of an open secret-and places where you can falsify documents are readily available.

Same with janitorial services, landscaping, painting, etc.

Any low end, menial task in Boston, bet you anything they are from Latin America, mainly from El Salvador.

You almost need spanish on a daily basis.

And in an area with a fairly high level of education, you think there is a ready supply of Americans willing to take those jobs? Forget it.

Ultimately, the economic gains from illegals should outweigh the costs of losing those industries that rely on that cheap labor. If the agribusiness folds in California, what happens to California''s revenue?

Alternatively, what happens if prices rise to cover more expensive labor-does the consumer switch to imported produce, or do without? If demand falls, what is the impact to California''s revenue?

Maybe the Governor needs to root out ""pork"" in the state budget, before tackling this issue-seek efficiencies in state expenditures first.

"mateo" wrote:

In Boston, there isn''t a single restaurant that doesn''t use some level of illegal labor-its more of an open secret-and places where you can falsify documents are readily available. .

Replace ""Boston"" with New York, LA, Washington.. probably the same.

"mateo" wrote:

And in an area with a fairly high level of education, you think there is a ready supply of Americans willing to take those jobs? Forget it.

Because you cannot live on that money in this country unless there are 16 people sharing a two bedroom house.

"mateo" wrote:

Ultimately, the economic gains from illegals should outweigh the costs of losing those industries that rely on that cheap labor. If the agribusiness folds in California, what happens to California''s revenue?

Alternatively, what happens if prices rise to cover more expensive labor-does the consumer switch to imported produce, or do without? If demand falls, what is the impact to California''s revenue?

As the conversation started, there is an estimated $5 billion US going toward services in California for an estimated 2.2 million illegal immigrants. If you take that per person in California (what is CA''s population 35 million??) then that is $143 per person that you are paying in taxes to support. I don''t know how much it would be to replace these workers with a more legal system but I know that I would rather see the REAL costs up front, instead of having to subsidise this system.

"mateo" wrote:

In Boston, there isn''t a single restaurant that doesn''t use some level of illegal labor-its more of an open secret-and places where you can falsify documents are readily available.

Same with janitorial services, landscaping, painting, etc.

Any low end, menial task in Boston, bet you anything they are from Latin America, mainly from El Salvador.

You almost need spanish on a daily basis.

Imagine what it''s like down here. If you don''t speak spanish then you can''t even order a burger at some of OC McDonalds. I know of a Del Taco close to here where you either order in Spanish or you have to drive up to the window and talk to the manager.

And in an area with a fairly high level of education, you think there is a ready supply of Americans willing to take those jobs? Forget it.

With 35 Million people and unemployment on the rise is CA, I would bet you a crisp dollar bill that there is someone willing to take that job. Even if its just to make ends meet until things turn around out here (if they turn around).

Ultimately, the economic gains from illegals should outweigh the costs of losing those industries that rely on that cheap labor. If the agribusiness folds in California, what happens to California''s revenue?

If? It lost 8 Million USD last quarter. Most of it related to shrinking of ariable land and increased costs for transportation (I mentioned the gas prices, right?). Watch as more and more of California''s agriculture business struggles with competing against Central American grown produce. The over regulation of the industry by the Sacramento legislater has hammered them. Hell, most of the avocado''s you eat are grown in Mexico. That changed with in the last 10 years (Sister and Borther-in-law owned an Avacado farm).

Alternatively, what happens if prices rise to cover more expensive labor-does the consumer switch to imported produce, or do without? If demand falls, what is the impact to California''s revenue?

Well, prices will rise due to the economic burden being improsed on us by the illegal immigrants. It''s a choice now between an increase in expenses or an increase in taxes. One way or the other, we will end up paying more. One is a little more platable to me than the other. I''d rather make a choice vs paying the state. The state is horrible at getting funds to those people that need help. Private charities are much better at this than the CA Gov.

Maybe the Governor needs to root out ""pork"" in the state budget, before tackling this issue-seek efficiencies in state expenditures first.

He''s already working on it (Source) but, and I may have stated this before, our state legislator is a bit difficult to work with. They''re pretty rabid about a couple of things; (1) getting their guy recalled last fall and (2) having their programs cut. Unions and social programs are huge in this state and the Dot Com tax revenue that they once had has long since dried up. No one wants to give up the dollars for their programs and our so called republican Gov. is married to one of the most liberal families in the States. We shall see. I still hold out hope that he can get things in order. He''s threatened to go on the campaign trail to get rid of some of these folks and it is very possible that he can get that done this fall.

"CEJ" wrote:

Imagine what it''s like down here. If you don''t speak spanish then you can''t even order a burger at some of OC McDonalds. I know of a Del Taco close to here where you either order in Spanish or you have to drive up to the window and talk to the manager.

Gah! What would the community think if they saw you talking to a Hispaniard?

Come on! Maybe a corner burger sty can hire illegals, but McDonald''s simply can''t. If none of the employees at a given McD''s speaka any English, it''s not because they''re all illegals.

Besides, McD''s pay higher than minimum wage -- substantially so if you stick on a job for some time (AFAIK).

The problem isn''t with immigration. The majority of people who come here want to work hard and help their families. We should let them in as guest workers and let them in quickly.

Immigration good!

Dey''d take out jowbs though.

"Ulairi" wrote:

The problem isn''t with immigration. The majority of people who come here want to work hard and help their families. We should let them in as guest workers and let them in quickly.

Immigration good!

Entry level, subsistence level jobs aside, the current policy on immigration does two things;
(1) Generates a burden on a community support services
(2) Costs the border states in this particular situation billions of dollars that are not being re-imbursed by the fed. The fed, I might add is responsible for this problem (the border is under federal control) yet myself and my family are paying for it.

I think, immigration/guest worker system would work, but please keep in mind the hit to schools, hospitals and social programs that comes from supporting a substantially larger portion of the community that is at or below the poverty level.

In a perfect world, I would agree with you. Throw open the border and let ''em all in. The problem as I see it now is that there is a limited amount of funds for use in running and taking care of this state. As it stands now, we are on the hook for a hell of a lot of expenses without a hell of a lot of funds coming in.

The final thing that I have been troubled with, is this concept of MEChA. After all, I have a mental image of California as being part of the US and not a Mexican/Chicano state. This would not be a big deal if it weren''t for the fact that most of our hispanic leaders are members of this group. Bustamante (who ran in the recall election) was a member of this group and he reused to denounce his membership during the campaign. It''s just troubling to my simple, ''gingo'' mind.

I think, immigration/guest worker system would work, but please keep in mind the hit to schools, hospitals and social programs that comes from supporting a substantially larger portion of the community that is at or below the poverty level.

We support them in those ways now. It is against the law for a hospital to turn away anyone that is in need of care. I think if we set up the guest worker program and had them pay taxes, things would be much better.

Dey''d take out jowbs though.

I know. Damn mexicans taking all of the good hotel maid jobs.

Ok, everybody who isn''t descended from immigrants, raise their hands.

*crickets*

Yeah but they were good immigrants, remember?

"hubbinsd" wrote:

Ok, everybody who isn''t descended from immigrants, raise their hands.

*crickets*

Aaaaand the Native Americans are sneering right about now..

Ok, everybody who isn''t descended from immigrants, raise their hands.

*crickets*

Over what time period are we talking? Even Native Americans aren''t native, in that they migrated from the opposite direction.

True, but they were here before the U.S.

Surely they''d have drowned?

*rimshot*

I''m here all week - try the fish!

True, but they were here before the U.S.

So does that mean that all French, Dutch, Spanish, and English colonists that were here for the ~200 years before the Revolution are okay?

"Ulairi" wrote:

I think if we set up the guest worker program and had them pay taxes, things would be much better.

Keep in mind that the income levels of most of these guest workers will be at or below or poverty level. That said, they will not pay for the services they will recieve. The middle class in California and the rest of the US will bear this burden.

"Ulairi" wrote:

Damn mexicans taking all of the good hotel maid jobs.

So, by this example, there would not be any legal immigrants or natrualized citizens that would ever take these jobs? Really? Who does this work in Canada? Europe?

Also, Mexico is struggling with their own immigration issue. There is a huge population of Central Americans who cross through Mexico on their way north. To a lesser extent, the Mexican Gov''t is dealing with crime and humanitarian issues on thier southern border as well.

"hubbinsd" wrote:

Ok, everybody who isn''t descended from immigrants, raise their hands.

*crickets*

Ok. I think it important to differentiate between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration. You should not reward people who break our fedral and state laws by providing social services. My family came through Ellis Island and not the Arizona desert.