Trying to do the right thing

My son is 11, he has a neighbor friend down the street that's 9 and just got an Xbox for Xmas. Great, right? Well listen to this -

My son came home and told me that his friend was playing GTA Vice City, a game he knows I don't want him playing.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a religious nut, my son and I both have read the evil Harry Potter, and I let him play 99% of the games I get. I just felt that one was pushing it too far. It gets down to morals, I guess.

So any ways, my wife has talked with the neighbor kid's mom a lot, so I have her call and explain to her why we'd rather our kid wasn't playing that game.

We mentioned the M Rating

"I knew it was M rated, but he's playing it at his friends house any ways"

Your a drug dealer, prostitution, cop beatings, etc .....

"Well I watched him play it for a while and it looked okay to me"

Okay, great. So that's not going anywhere.

Now get this, my son's over there and just for kicks (because my son won at Yugio or something), the kids decide to throw on GTA..

So now my son has to leave, because a kid two years younger than him can play a videogame he's not allowed to.

I know, it's just some of the fun parts of parenting, but looking at his face when he came home just tore me up.

Knowing how hard the game industry is trying to stay on the up and up with keeping this stuff out of minors hands, seeing things like this just

BURNS ME UP.

Thanks for letting me vent.

""Well I watched him play it for a while and it looked okay to me""

Chances are, she just watch him drive or walk for a few minutes and he didn''t actually do anything. Perhaps you should try showing them yourself? Maybe demo some of the more questionable aspects of the game.

It doesn''t seem to me like those parents really pay attention to what their son is doing. More than likely they don''t even know what the M Rating is. I would either take''m to school or call child protective services (that last part was a joke...kinda).

I don''t have any advice for ya and I''m not even a parent yet, but I think you''re doing the right thing. Stand firm and good luck.

As a kid who didn''t see an R rated movie until he was 17 (and even then it was Good Morning Vietnam), I would probably be a prime candidate for railing against restrictive parenting. But I''m on your side Ridlin. Be clear to your son about what you consider to be off limits whether watching or playing or whatever. Heck, ask him to repeat it for you so you know he understands. You can try to explain why, but, as a parent, the reason is often moot. It''s one of the perks of being the parent in the situation. What you say should go. Once everyone is clear on the rules, you''ve got grounds to enforce them.

RumbleFish makes a good point, though. Whether or not an actual demonstration is appropriate (she''d probably just end up thinking you''re a sicko who perverts innocent games) is probably up for discussion. But by her statement alone, she''s already proven herself as someone likely to end up suing the industry. You can try to educate her as to why games have M ratings and what flags it is supposed to set off for a parent. By restricting your child from playing/watching M games, though, you will hopefully be setting a good example.

Take your kid to a redlight district and then beat up a hooker with him.

If my plan works, he''ll be so sickened and traumatised he won''t want to play GTA.

If he doesn''t get traumatised well, uh, at least you''ll know he''ll be (in)famous one day.

I''m not a parent, and there are games that I own that I know I wouldn''t let my kids play, including all the GTA series.

Its okay if you are mature enough to understand the lack of morality in the game-that''s part of the perverse pleasure that we all get from it. No harm no foul.

For the developing mind, forget it. I''m not sure that anyone under the age of 18 is mature enough to understand that the game displays a serious level of brutality and lawlessness that cannot be reinacted in the real world without consequeces.

They just think it is cool.

I''d say that that kid is no friend of your sons-if your son said ""I''m not allowed to play that"" and was goaded into it, then ban that house until your son is older. Let the firend come to your house, where you can control the content, but don''t let him go over there.

Keep it up. We don''t need a nation of thugs.

That sucks Ridlin...Too bad other parents aren''t as willing to make the hard decisions as you are -- good for you!

My kids are very young, so this hasn''t become an issue yet. But I hope that when the time comes I''ll be able to do the right thing too. It is SO hard to be the bad guy though...

What''s wrong with that? Elysium plays it in front of his son to put him to sleep and don''t even getting me started on his baby with headphones on listening to 2pac.

It says a lot about your son that he left when the friend switched to GTA. I remember all the things I kept from my parents and things that I did against my parents'' wishes without them knowing.

My 10 year old brother went through the exact same thing with his mom (I''m his brother, it''s my duty to expose him to questionable material).

She wouldn''t let him own the game, wouldn''t let him play it at other peoples houses, etc, etc. Because the game was _so_ popular though my brother spent about 3 months in a full court press blitzkrieg trying to get GTA into his life. It was brutal.

In the end my dad rented the game with my brother and sat and watched him play it for a few hours. In the end my dad said he didn''t do anything that would warrant an M rating, he didn''t beat up hookers, he didn''t masacre civilians. He did try to get his wanted level up as high as he could and still escape, he did jump off of buildings and try to score. So the mother in question could very well be right: The open ended nature of the game makes it so it doesn''t have to be a moral perversion, there is a chance that your son and his friends are doing nothing bad.

The final descision they reached was that he could play it at friends, but it wasn''t allowed in the house. Their logic was that they wanted him to realize that the content in the game wasn''t something they endorsed, either explicitly or implicitly, but he wasn''t going to turn into a raving lunatic for having played it.

At 11 kids can distinguish between fantasy and reality, they understand that killing people is wrong, and they know that. So if your kid plays the game the likelyhood of them becoming demented and evil is lower than you imagine.

With that being said, you are doing the right thing. If you don''t want him to play it suffer through the misery now, secure in the knowledge that you are doing the best thing for your child. As a bonus your ability to stick to your morals and decisions is the kind of long range character building thing that will affect the kid much more than the game (IMHO).

Good luck.

Propagandalf is right. Sounds like your son is a good kid for leaving when he did. Let him stick to games were he is the good guy saving the world from evil.

Anyway, good thread. My son is only two now. It''s nice to know what I''m in for.

"Ridlin" wrote:

Now get this, my son''s over there and just for kicks (because my son won at Yugio or something), the kids decide to throw on GTA..

So now my son has to leave, because a kid two years younger than him can play a videogame he''s not allowed to.

Take this post, and print it out. Then, when your kid is older, you can show him that what his ""friend"" basically did was kick him out of his house because he''s a sore loser. A good friend is hard to find and your kid has a bigger friend in his dad than his closer-aged ""friend"" down the street.

As far as that other kid not being a good friend, I agree with you guys there, but you can''t choose your kids friends.

No, you can''t.

I tried to lightly explain to him that his buddy wasn''t very cool , but it didn''t have any affect.

As far as educating the parents, we''ve given up hope on that. That''s what the phone call was trying to do and it was met with cool distain.

So whatever. It''s something that''s going to go away on it''s own. Well at least until the next one comes along, any ways.

I just sat and had a talk with my son about things I couldn''t do when I was a kid that lots of my friends could, and how it made me angry, but that once I was older I understood the simple reason my parents were the way they were.

They cared. A lot.

I think he understands. And secretly I hope that kid''s mom happens to walk into the room and watch her son pick up a prostitute, get the car rocking, and then run her over and take the money back. Or maybe watch him pummel an old lady to the ground and beat her in the face with a baseball bat over and over and over before taking her money....

You know what I mean.

"Propagandalf" wrote:

It says a lot about your son that he left when the friend switched to GTA. I remember all the things I kept from my parents and things that I did against my parents'' wishes without them knowing.

Yeah, you''ve got a great kid there. I woulda been like ""Oh wow! That''s awesome! Let me play!"" Though when I was growing up my parents didn''t have to worry about games being to explicit and/or graphic.

My parents kept explicit movies and TV (not that they had to worry about that either) away from me until I was probably 12-14 or so. There''s no way I''d have lasted till I was 17 never watching an R movie though, damn Sway

So Ridlin, have you considered Simpsons Hit and Run as a substitute for your son? Just a thought.

One of the things that I''d recomend would to be carefull how big a deal you make it ala ""forbidden fruit"" but it sounds like your kid listens to you which is important.

I''m no parent either just a uncle, but I would have the kid understand that it''s not the ""rules"" you''re enforcing blindly but your personal feelings.

Case in point my parents never allowed me to have guns real or otherwise growing up, did that stop me from having them ? Nope I just bought my own (toys) and hid them BUT I was aware how they felt and respected the fact that I would never ever play with them around them or the house.

I""m very loose with him on stuff he can watch / play with. Violence doesn''t bother me in least, I frimily believe it isn''t going to turn him into a mass murderer. It''s moral issues I''m concerned with. Why are you running around blasting people with a machine gun?

For instance, he''s currently enjoying Call of Duty.

I think my ""looseness"" is the reason he''s listening to me on this one, because he knows I don''t forbid him from much, so when I do it''s special.

Nudity is a different story with me. My wife doesn''t understand why I try to keep that stuff away from him - being a woman and all.

He''s going to become completely obsessed with it soon enough. There''s no reason to help him into that confusing period of life.

He''s a great kid. I''m planning on keeping him that way as long as I can. I know it''s only a matter of time before he starts hiding stuff from us.

From what my parents tell me, that when the fun really begins :).

It says a lot about your son that he left when the friend switched to GTA. I remember all the things I kept from my parents and things that I did against my parents'' wishes without them knowing.

Oddly enough, the fact that your child actually did this is the best argument for him being allowed to play it. There are some people who simply do what they are told, whether by society or their parents, and if your son is one of them he should have no trouble handling it.

Of course, once he hits puberty the raging hormones could completely change his personality. Good luck if/when that happens.

You''re doing the right thing in not letting him play this. While I am a firm proponent of the industry being allowed to MAKE games like GTA, it has that M rating for good reason and should never be in the hands of children. I don''t have any kids yet, but I know if I did they would not be allowed to play GTA no matter what the situation. Yes it sucks for the poor kid to get excluded, but that''s the fault of the somewhat irresponsible parents that bought the game for their young son. There are absolute masses of great games out there suitable for kids without being ""kiddy"" games--there''s no reason to be buying GTA for someone so young. Oh well.

Sounds like you''re doing all the right stuff, Ridlin. I watched several friends in my home town during junior high and senior high make bad choices based on things forbidden and NOT discussed by their parents. Talking about things is good.

The danger is lies in glamorizing the forbidden stuff, which I think can lead to unhealthy attitudes towards women, and all that stuff you''d think the parents would want to avoid. One of my best friends had parents who would never discuss sex, and forbid him to see rated R movies. Now my other best friend and I would take him to (sneak into) rated R movies anyway. The irony is that it was inadvertent on our part, because we would just go to see movies we wanted to see and not pay attention to the rating. The sad part is after the movie, all he could talk about were the things that gave it the rating (i saw her boobies), while my other friend and I would be talking about the plot, characters, ideas, and sometimes not even remember the nudity or whatever he was talking about.

Sounds like you have a great relationship with your son though, if you can sit down and talk about this stuff. I had a coworker who was very disturbed by his 15 year old playing the game, because apparently he and his friends figured out every disturbing thing you could do. I asked him what he thought was better, talking about the disturbing stuff or trying to forbid his son from playing the game. I think he got the point, but he was emotionally...almost in despair as he learned his son had paid a hooker and then killed her in some video game. I''m sure that could be funny at age 15 without taking it seriously. Personally I never thought of doing it, though I did use the uh service to boost my health. Really. Just for health.

My wife didn''t like seeing my shooting spree where I got my rating to 6 stars, and stole a tank in GTA VC, but you know...I had my own tank in a garage after that.

You''re doing the right thing. As someone said, go and show then how you can get your heath up and then get your money back by killing the hooker. Or attack a cop with the chainsaw.

It''s an M rated game (or an ''18'' here in the UK) for a reason! And 11 is waaaaay too young to be playing it.

Trying to think of a parallel. Would they let him watch Texas Chainsaw Massacre? or American Psycho? Beacause they have the same rating. M rating for games doesn''t mean ""it doesn''t really apply, because it''s a game, right?"".

Give me the address, I''ll be round with the chainsaw.

I don''t have any children, however I do have 2 dogs. Generally I only let them play educational games like:

Chew-Toy for PS2, Rawhide for X-Box and Kool-Kong for PC.

In light of that I would agree with your discretionary measues.

Ridlin,

I am proud of you, and think that if your son behaves that way then you are probably doing a great job as a parent.

The important thing to remember about these things is that children aren''t just ''little adults''. They simply don''t have the life experiences and maturity to be able to apply perspective to things. Children absolutely shouldn''t be exposed to too much violence or sexuality when they are younger. There are no beneficial side effects to it.

So bravo to you. It is a hard road you have chosen, but fruitful.

Well I havent played GTA but I understand that you can play it straight and narrow.

So why not play it with him and show him the example of how it can be played on a PG level. Maybe an easier approach for him to take with his friends is, ""I can only play this game with my Dad.""

When he has been at his friends house while they were playing it you might want to ask him what he saw them doing while playing. There might be some exposure to things that you want to clarify with him and reinforce your positive values on the situation represented.

"fangblackbone" wrote:

Well I havent played GTA but I understand that you can play it straight and narrow.

This makes for a boring game of standing around, not hurting anyone.

Simple answer - buy him a copy of The Simpsons: Road Rage. Basically
very similar game, but for kids. Same driving stuff, no shooting, no
beating, no sex. And it''s way fun and kids think it''s cool. Which is good
because I do too.

I waited forever to get a copy of GTA III (I think that''s the version). Then
I watched some teen friends of the family play it, and could not stop
laughing. I mean, it''s waaaaay over the top. If the image of the game
in the media is Scarface, the actual implementation is Toxic Avenger.
Sure, the game is about violence. Most games are. It''s because we
tend to fantasize about things we can''t do. But the world, the humor,
the free-form style...It''s a great game and while I don''t let my 10 year
old son play it, I won''t forbid it when he''s 14 or so. And I won''t freak
if he sees it at a friend''s house (not that you did freak, I understand
your dilemma).

So get Road Rage and see if that brings the other kid over to your
place.

Robear

I think Robear you mean Simpsons Hit and Run. Road Rage is the Crazy Taxi rip-off, Hit and Run is GTA3 lite.

I think you''re way ahead of the game on this parenting gig, Ridlin. The fact that he came home and told you about GTA at his friends house and actually left when it was loaded up a second time speaks volumes about your exceptional parenting skills.

And talking about issues rather than stomping your foot and shouting ""No!"" is always the right thing to do, whatever your decision.

I have to say, as hard as it was to do, you did the right thing Ridlin. Here''s hoping that when I have a child, I have the guts to do the same.

Thanks everyone. If it comes up again I''m going for the Simpson''s idea. I don''t think it will.

I notice the kid hasn''t been around much. He was creepy any way. Never EVER wearing socks. Hates all food you offer him. One of THOSE kids.

My son has been loving Call Of Duty team deathmatch. I have no problem with that. I usally sit by him and cheer him on, or tell him to pick a different server if he''s having a bad game.

He''s a great kid. I''d take all the credit, but he''s just a great kid. Always has been, even when he was a baby.

Now my youngest boy, he''s a DEMON FROM HELL MONSTER CHILD.

but that''s another story ......

The second one is always the demon child, unless the first one is.