From the front page, I thought it'd be cool to try to create our own gaming canon. If you don't know what it means see the front page article. Since the comments system sucks I thought I'd crosspost it in here. I'll also post what I put in the comments on the front page.
*edit* Okay, here's a few more ground rules
1) Try to keep each list in a genre
2) A game can be in several genres
3) Each list is all the essential games to understand the genre, this can be games that added significantly to the genre or just excellent examples of the genre
If you suggest a game and it's not on the list, you probably didn't give me a genre. I can't put it on here if I don't know where to put it.
*edit*Okay, now discussion moves to each seperate thread, to suggest new canons use the "Other" thread.
Computer Games - TBS (mainly from fangblackbone and Pyroman[FO])
Computer Games - RPG (from Lord_Xan and fangblackbone)
Computer Games - Adventure Games
Console/Computer Games - Puzzle/Jump&Run (from chrisg)
Console Games - Shoot 'em Up (from chrisg)
Console Games - Alternate Sports (from chrisg)
What about regular games? What about video games? How can you miss stuff like Monopoly, Uno, Yahtzee, Go Fish, Super Mario, Tetris, etc....
I''d have to disagree with some of the stuff on your list - why do we need Hexen, two different Warcrafts, multiple half life mods, etc... If this should be a ""computer gaming"" cannon, I would try to limit it to about 20 games - but you left out classics like System Shock 2, Nethack, even Solitaire!
As RPGs are my favourite I''ll only chip in about them:
SSI''s GoldBox series
Ultima 4
Ultima Underworld
Ultima 7
System Shock
Fallout
Diablo
Baldur''s Gate
Planescape: Torment
Deus Ex
The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind
Oh boy, this is actually a lot harder than I thought. I know I left out a large number of exceptional RPGs (either because I did not play them or because I do not know enough about them), but the above ones I feel each contributed something unique to the genre in some significant way.
I feel that canon titles should not just be very good games, but that they must also have either revitalised the genre or expanded it in some important way (changes in storytelling, changes in gameplay types, etc).
I guess this can be turned into a really long discussion but it''d be most interesting to see GWJ come up with a definitive list (if that''s possible :wink:). Maybe we need to place some restrictions on what we list? Hmmm... or how about bringing voting into it? Granted, that only works when a large enough number of people participate, but at least it''s a mechanism to cut the lists down to the ''essentials''.
(And yes, I know technically Diablo doesn''t qualify as an RPG, but I see it as a sort of RPG-with-a-twist :))
This would be tough..
Case in point..
Would you include..
System Shock 1 and 2
and
Deus Ex? plus Thief 1 and 2?
or is it enough to simply stop at System Shock? Since graphics are usually left out of discussions like this. Does that cover the FPS/RPG category?
I would not include System Shock 2 (even though it is an outstanding FPS/RPG). I think that System Shock already captured many of the elements present in Shock 2. Shock 2 simply refined them and added some glitz.
Deus Ex is different enough from System Shock to warrant it''s inclusion. System Shock (for me) was about fear and the feeling of solitude you got when playing the game. Deus Ex, on the other hand, was more about putting you in an interactive, dynamic world and giving you the freedom to make your own choices.
Thief, I suppose, could be included for its retake on the FPS genre (ie more sneak, less run-and-gun). Certainly not for it''s other aspects though (again, not because they weren''t well done, but simply because they had been done before).
We could always adopt the age-old statistically-sound method of throwing lots of names in a hat and picking out a set of winners? Someone will have to watch the hat though, otherwise the results won''t be independant.
What about Marathon?
Some older games and genres (C64/Amiga):
Puzzle/Jump&Run:
Impossible Mission
Lemmings
Shoot ''em Up:
Katakis
R-Type
Turrican
Lionheart (if only an exercise in how to get everything out of a gaming rig & excellence in art)
Alternate Sports:
MUDS
Grand Monster Slam
Speedball
In no particular genre/order:
Alone in the Dark
Rogue
Civilization
Kohan
MechWarrior 2
MechCommander 2 (?)
Let''s see...
Daikatana
Black & White
TRIBES 2
Force Commander
Panty Raider
Deer Hunter
Pyst
Oh wait, I thought you meant ""Let''s make a gaming cannon"", you know, to shoot games out of.
Oddball catergory:
GTA III
Outcast
Giants
Sacrifice
Additions to the RTS list:
Total Annihilation
Medieval: Total War
And Hostile Waters needs to be somewhere too, but I can''t decide on which list to put it.
I gave this thing a little bit more thought: To me a canon is a set of titles that the majority of people agree on as being excellent. Somebody new to gaming can look into it and find games he most likely will have a lot of fun with.
That said maybe we are doing it the wrong way? It should be more like having people suggest titles for a genre and then have a vote for it and take about the ten highest voted titles into the canon? This will certainly leave out titles that are great but that way we have a set of titles that more than one person finds excellent. Maybe even start getting the genres right and if to put cross genre games in their own category or into the supercategory.
To add to Pyro''s adventure games list, perhaps Grim Fandango?
Also another Genre relatively overlooked so far...
Space Sim:
Wing Commander Series
Tie Fighter
That''s all I can think of for now...
Mission Force Cyberstorm - TBStrat
Might and Magic 3,4, and 5
Privateer (I know someone mentioned Wing Commander series but this belongs in a class by itself)
Crusader No Regret, Remorse
SSI Darksun RPG''s (point click interface, AOE radius preview on spells, cursor changes for different actions, combat and adventure on the same screen)
Mech Commander 2 should be in RPG and RTS. IMHO it gets the hybrid formula better than Baldurs Gate, and Dungeon Siege. Obviously BG gets the nod for side quests and story over MC2.
I think your definition is the more proper one Pyro, so let''s stick to that. To your adventure game list:
Were the Gabriel Knight games so different from each other?
When I think of Gabriel Knight 2 I always think of Phantasmagoria, not the other way round, for example. I haven''t played Gabriel Knight 3 so I cannot comment on that one.
I think Baphomet''s Curse 2 should be in that list though.
Strategy:
Civilization has to go on there (I know it''s been said, but it''s a must-have).
(Should there be a differentiation between turn-based and real-time?)
Adventure:
I always liked the Police Quest games - should all the Quest series'' just get rolled up into one entry? They were all fairly similar (at least at the beginning).
SimSomething] should be on there (or at least represented) - probably with SimCity? - but I don''t know what list it goes in. I''m still partial to SimEarth...
And should I mention Myst at this point, for adventure games?
Pyro: can you maybe make this a sticky and put the games we have so far in your first post? Makes it a lot easier to keep track of the list.
A sticky would be good since this list is more or less what the people on this board suggest to others, so they don''t have to wade through the forum pages.
For gaming canon, I would almost hold CGW''s (Computer Gaming World) hall of fame as the benchmark for games you MUST play at least once in your life. To add the list of here on the message board, though, I would place the Wing Commander games (or at least 1 and 2) into this list games. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing them, and it was the first time I remember having to upgrade my PC to play a game.
Wolfenstein 3D, just to see the game that kicked off the FPS genre in full (yes there FPS games before that, but Wolf made it popular) just like Dune 2 did for RTS. And don''t get me started Sim City. Or Falcon 3.0 for that matter.
As for console games, I think that Super Mario Brothers is pretty much the watershed game that kicked off the console re-revolution (no slight to atari, but console gaming was dead until Nintendo blew the doors back off their hinges).
(Not going to change the post, but will acknowledge that wing commander was added to the list as I was typing this up. You people are waaay to quick)
Carmageddon - the ultimate multiplayer demolition derby game.
Defender of the Crown - Risk lite with arcade game sequences
Rocket Ranger - Cinematronics were the pioneers of fun games with movie like epic style.
MULE
Decathalon - the original PC game!
Rogue/Nethack - speaks for itself
edit: Pyro dont forget to check my earlier post =)
Dreamcast had a port of the classic arcade game from SNK
It is the greatest shooter ever! Its called Twinkle Star Sprites
Golden Axe - Genesis brawler genre
Target Earth - Sidescrolling shooter for Genesis
Ack Crusader No Regret is an action shooter not TBS =)
Decathalon is sports sim
I dont know what you would put Rogue/Nethack would fall under.
I could be wrong but I think a ""Brawler"" genre could be added.
Golden axe, Double Dragon, River City Ransom, TMNT would all fall under this category
Populous - God game
Sim City - God game
This list has issues...there a way to many titles there..
FPS
There is no way Quake 3 is on there...many people would agree despite its stellar engine it was a step back from MP in Quake/Quakeworld.
Duke3D and/or Wolf3D should be out.. Doom is enough from that Genre... Duke3D did little to innovate beyond Doom.
I see this list as being different from merely a best of list...
NOLF out... UT out..Marathon out...Hexen out..DarkKnight out..all these while awesome in thier own way don''t deserve to be on the list really.
HL is really the last modern FPS that innovated with its scripting...since then its pretty much only be flashier graphics...and heavier scripting.
*edit* Pyroman[FO]: Sorry for the confusion, I hit edit instead of quote
GameGuru, I have to disagree with your statement on Duke3D, as it was the first FPS to truly offer some degree of intereactivity beyond shoot gun, kill bad guy. I do agree with the Quake3 thing, though, as it did nothing really all that new. I think the FPS category could probably be summed up as follows:
Wolf 3D (the first)
Doom (the one that made FPS really popular)
Duke 3D (a bit more interactivce)
Quake (pretty much made everybody buy 3D video cards, stellar game to boot)
Half-Life (all mods included)
Everything else in between is just more of the same.
Were there any squad based strategy games before Syndicate? That might make it worthy of inclusion.
(Oh, and Rogue is RPG, all the way. Unless there''s a category for RPGlite...)
I gotta agree with the Guru here, and I''ll put forth a tentative RTS section culling; Dune II should be one of the only games in there. All the *Craft games are hugely derivative, as is C&C. Age of Empires is pretty similar too, when you boil it down. The others I haven''t played.
Oh, and Tetris! For the love of falling blocks, Tetris!
Edit: Writer, what was the increased interactivity in Duke3d? I remember shooting bad guys and finding keys, but not much more...
X-Com! I don''t see X-Com in that list either. This is simply a travesty!
As for Duke 3D and interactivity, I remember being able to shoot stuff in rooms, sort of play pool, floors caving in, being able to blow up walls (only certain parts, mind you, but hey, the tech was primative those days) and the strippers. By god the strippers! Name one game that had/has strippers! Rated PG of course, but it is the thought that counts. Seriously, though.
The environment just felt more alive than Doom and even Quake, as a lot of the items in some of the rooms were destructable. To be fair, some things were maddeningly industructable, but you could definitely blow more things up in Duke than in Quake.
Pages