Let's make a gaming canon

From the front page, I thought it'd be cool to try to create our own gaming canon. If you don't know what it means see the front page article. Since the comments system sucks I thought I'd crosspost it in here. I'll also post what I put in the comments on the front page.

*edit* Okay, here's a few more ground rules
1) Try to keep each list in a genre
2) A game can be in several genres
3) Each list is all the essential games to understand the genre, this can be games that added significantly to the genre or just excellent examples of the genre

If you suggest a game and it's not on the list, you probably didn't give me a genre. I can't put it on here if I don't know where to put it.

*edit*Okay, now discussion moves to each seperate thread, to suggest new canons use the "Other" thread.

Computer Games - FPS

Computer Games - RTS

Computer Games - TBS (mainly from fangblackbone and Pyroman[FO])

Computer Games - RPG (from Lord_Xan and fangblackbone)

Computer Games - Adventure Games

Console/Computer Games - Puzzle/Jump&Run (from chrisg)

Console Games - Shoot 'em Up (from chrisg)

Console Games - Alternate Sports (from chrisg)

Computer Games - Flight Sim (from Elhatcho and Pyroman[FO])

Computer Games - God Games (from fangblackbone)

What about regular games? What about video games? How can you miss stuff like Monopoly, Uno, Yahtzee, Go Fish, Super Mario, Tetris, etc....

I''d have to disagree with some of the stuff on your list - why do we need Hexen, two different Warcrafts, multiple half life mods, etc... If this should be a ""computer gaming"" cannon, I would try to limit it to about 20 games - but you left out classics like System Shock 2, Nethack, even Solitaire!

As RPGs are my favourite I''ll only chip in about them:

SSI''s GoldBox series
Ultima 4
Ultima Underworld
Ultima 7
System Shock
Fallout
Diablo
Baldur''s Gate
Planescape: Torment
Deus Ex
The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind

Oh boy, this is actually a lot harder than I thought. I know I left out a large number of exceptional RPGs (either because I did not play them or because I do not know enough about them), but the above ones I feel each contributed something unique to the genre in some significant way.

I feel that canon titles should not just be very good games, but that they must also have either revitalised the genre or expanded it in some important way (changes in storytelling, changes in gameplay types, etc).

I guess this can be turned into a really long discussion but it''d be most interesting to see GWJ come up with a definitive list (if that''s possible :wink:). Maybe we need to place some restrictions on what we list? Hmmm... or how about bringing voting into it? Granted, that only works when a large enough number of people participate, but at least it''s a mechanism to cut the lists down to the ''essentials''.

(And yes, I know technically Diablo doesn''t qualify as an RPG, but I see it as a sort of RPG-with-a-twist :))

This would be tough..

Case in point..

Would you include..

System Shock 1 and 2

and

Deus Ex? plus Thief 1 and 2?

or is it enough to simply stop at System Shock? Since graphics are usually left out of discussions like this. Does that cover the FPS/RPG category?

I would not include System Shock 2 (even though it is an outstanding FPS/RPG). I think that System Shock already captured many of the elements present in Shock 2. Shock 2 simply refined them and added some glitz.

Deus Ex is different enough from System Shock to warrant it''s inclusion. System Shock (for me) was about fear and the feeling of solitude you got when playing the game. Deus Ex, on the other hand, was more about putting you in an interactive, dynamic world and giving you the freedom to make your own choices.

Thief, I suppose, could be included for its retake on the FPS genre (ie more sneak, less run-and-gun). Certainly not for it''s other aspects though (again, not because they weren''t well done, but simply because they had been done before).

We could always adopt the age-old statistically-sound method of throwing lots of names in a hat and picking out a set of winners? Someone will have to watch the hat though, otherwise the results won''t be independant.

"LeapingGnome" wrote:

What about regular games? What about video games? How can you miss stuff like Monopoly, Uno, Yahtzee, Go Fish, Super Mario, Tetris, etc....

I''d have to disagree with some of the stuff on your list - why do we need Hexen, two different Warcrafts, multiple half life mods, etc... If this should be a ""computer gaming"" cannon, I would try to limit it to about 20 games - but you left out classics like System Shock 2, Nethack, even Solitaire! :)

I tried to edit my post to be a little more clear. I made an FPS list and an RTS list, not the entire thing.

Also, I put in Hexen because of the Hub system which has become a staple of lazy developers. Warcraft II was pretty different from Warcraft III or even Starcraft, though I could see an argument for only including one of them. I admit my RTS list needs some work. Multiple Half-Life mods? You think any FPS canon would be remotely complete without Counter-Strike and Half-Life? Though Natural-Selection is a different take on the genre, it may not be considered a canon part of the genre yet and instead just a fad. Time will tell on that one.

Lord_Xan, I think Diablo definately belongs on that list. What game has inspired RPGs since it was released like Diablo? Almost any CRPG since has tried to be either more ""Diablo"" like or more ""Baldurs Gate"" like. It practically created a subgenre.

What about Marathon?

Some older games and genres (C64/Amiga):

Puzzle/Jump&Run:
Impossible Mission
Lemmings

Shoot ''em Up:
Katakis
R-Type
Turrican
Lionheart (if only an exercise in how to get everything out of a gaming rig & excellence in art)

Alternate Sports:
MUDS
Grand Monster Slam
Speedball

In no particular genre/order:

Alone in the Dark
Rogue
Civilization
Kohan
MechWarrior 2
MechCommander 2 (?)

Let''s see...

Daikatana
Black & White
TRIBES 2
Force Commander
Panty Raider
Deer Hunter
Pyst

Oh wait, I thought you meant ""Let''s make a gaming cannon"", you know, to shoot games out of.

Let''s try to take this a genre at a time. Like Lord_Xan said, it''s not a list of just good games. This isn''t a favorite games list, it''s a list of titles that influenced a genre, or added something substantially new to a genre.

Oddball catergory:

GTA III
Outcast
Giants
Sacrifice

Additions to the RTS list:
Total Annihilation
Medieval: Total War

And Hostile Waters needs to be somewhere too, but I can''t decide on which list to put it.

I gave this thing a little bit more thought: To me a canon is a set of titles that the majority of people agree on as being excellent. Somebody new to gaming can look into it and find games he most likely will have a lot of fun with.

That said maybe we are doing it the wrong way? It should be more like having people suggest titles for a genre and then have a vote for it and take about the ten highest voted titles into the canon? This will certainly leave out titles that are great but that way we have a set of titles that more than one person finds excellent. Maybe even start getting the genres right and if to put cross genre games in their own category or into the supercategory.

The definition I was using was ""A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field: "the durable canon of American short fiction" (William Styron).""

Though I guess you could still interpret that either way. Okay, so maybe it can be a list of good games, though I think avoiding duplication is a good idea (i.e. Putting Blood, Duke3D and Shadow Warrior all on there). Still, let''s try to keep it split into genres because a general list would be way too big and unwieldy.

On the voting thing, posting the game is like voting for it. Or just saying ""I agree with his choices"". I was really looking for people to disagree, or recommend games left out.

Anyways, this thread is quickly derailing, so I''ll edit the first post to lay out some more rules and then we can hopefully get back to listing games.

I''ll try another genre.

Computer Games - Adventure Games
Zork Trilogy
Kings Quest
Maniac Mansion
Space Quest
Gabriel Knight
Monkey Island
Day of the Tentacle
Phantasmagoria
Leisure Suit Larry
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
Sam and Max Hit the Road
Gabriel Knight II
Gabriel Knight III
The Longest Journey

To add to Pyro''s adventure games list, perhaps Grim Fandango?

Also another Genre relatively overlooked so far...
Space Sim:
Wing Commander Series
Tie Fighter
That''s all I can think of for now...

Mission Force Cyberstorm - TBStrat

Might and Magic 3,4, and 5

Privateer (I know someone mentioned Wing Commander series but this belongs in a class by itself)

Crusader No Regret, Remorse

SSI Darksun RPG''s (point click interface, AOE radius preview on spells, cursor changes for different actions, combat and adventure on the same screen)

Mech Commander 2 should be in RPG and RTS. IMHO it gets the hybrid formula better than Baldurs Gate, and Dungeon Siege. Obviously BG gets the nod for side quests and story over MC2.

I think your definition is the more proper one Pyro, so let''s stick to that. To your adventure game list:

Were the Gabriel Knight games so different from each other?
When I think of Gabriel Knight 2 I always think of Phantasmagoria, not the other way round, for example. I haven''t played Gabriel Knight 3 so I cannot comment on that one.
I think Baphomet''s Curse 2 should be in that list though.

Strategy:
Civilization has to go on there (I know it''s been said, but it''s a must-have).
(Should there be a differentiation between turn-based and real-time?)

Adventure:
I always liked the Police Quest games - should all the Quest series'' just get rolled up into one entry? They were all fairly similar (at least at the beginning).

SimSomething] should be on there (or at least represented) - probably with SimCity? - but I don''t know what list it goes in. I''m still partial to SimEarth...

And should I mention Myst at this point, for adventure games?

Pyro: can you maybe make this a sticky and put the games we have so far in your first post? Makes it a lot easier to keep track of the list.
A sticky would be good since this list is more or less what the people on this board suggest to others, so they don''t have to wade through the forum pages.

"chrisg" wrote:

Were the Gabriel Knight games so different from each other?
When I think of Gabriel Knight 2 I always think of Phantasmagoria, not the other way round, for example. I haven''t played Gabriel Knight 3 so I cannot comment on that one.
I think Baphomet''s Curse 2 should be in that list though.

Great suggestions. My reasoning on the Gabriel Knight games is this
Gabriel Knight I was the first use of a serious style story in an adventure game that I know of and a great story. Someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
Gabriel Knight II was the only good FMV adventure game, IMO.
Gabriel Knight III I was thinking of as the first 3D adventure game but I completely forgot about Grim Fandango so I''ll use that instead.

I''ll also start compiling everything into the first post

*edit* Yeah Chumpy, that list is only Real Time Strategy, a Turn Based list would be good too
also chrisg, Certis suggested to make a locked sticky post with all this once we get it compiled, it''ll be easier to read that way. Then whenever somebody shows up they can suggest something be added and we can add it.

For gaming canon, I would almost hold CGW''s (Computer Gaming World) hall of fame as the benchmark for games you MUST play at least once in your life. To add the list of here on the message board, though, I would place the Wing Commander games (or at least 1 and 2) into this list games. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing them, and it was the first time I remember having to upgrade my PC to play a game.
Wolfenstein 3D, just to see the game that kicked off the FPS genre in full (yes there FPS games before that, but Wolf made it popular) just like Dune 2 did for RTS. And don''t get me started Sim City. Or Falcon 3.0 for that matter.

As for console games, I think that Super Mario Brothers is pretty much the watershed game that kicked off the console re-revolution (no slight to atari, but console gaming was dead until Nintendo blew the doors back off their hinges).

(Not going to change the post, but will acknowledge that wing commander was added to the list as I was typing this up. You people are waaay to quick)

Carmageddon - the ultimate multiplayer demolition derby game.

Defender of the Crown - Risk lite with arcade game sequences

Rocket Ranger - Cinematronics were the pioneers of fun games with movie like epic style.

MULE

Decathalon - the original PC game!

Rogue/Nethack - speaks for itself

edit: Pyro dont forget to check my earlier post =)

Dreamcast had a port of the classic arcade game from SNK

It is the greatest shooter ever! Its called Twinkle Star Sprites

Golden Axe - Genesis brawler genre

Target Earth - Sidescrolling shooter for Genesis

Okay fang, I added those. Though you really need to start giving me genres, I had to guess at a couple

Ack Crusader No Regret is an action shooter not TBS =)

Decathalon is sports sim

I dont know what you would put Rogue/Nethack would fall under.

I could be wrong but I think a ""Brawler"" genre could be added.

Golden axe, Double Dragon, River City Ransom, TMNT would all fall under this category

Populous - God game

Sim City - God game

This list has issues...there a way to many titles there..

FPS

There is no way Quake 3 is on there...many people would agree despite its stellar engine it was a step back from MP in Quake/Quakeworld.

Duke3D and/or Wolf3D should be out.. Doom is enough from that Genre... Duke3D did little to innovate beyond Doom.

I see this list as being different from merely a best of list...

NOLF out... UT out..Marathon out...Hexen out..DarkKnight out..all these while awesome in thier own way don''t deserve to be on the list really.

HL is really the last modern FPS that innovated with its scripting...since then its pretty much only be flashier graphics...and heavier scripting.

*edit* Pyroman[FO]: Sorry for the confusion, I hit edit instead of quote

GameGuru, I have to disagree with your statement on Duke3D, as it was the first FPS to truly offer some degree of intereactivity beyond shoot gun, kill bad guy. I do agree with the Quake3 thing, though, as it did nothing really all that new. I think the FPS category could probably be summed up as follows:

Wolf 3D (the first)
Doom (the one that made FPS really popular)
Duke 3D (a bit more interactivce)
Quake (pretty much made everybody buy 3D video cards, stellar game to boot)
Half-Life (all mods included)

Everything else in between is just more of the same.

Were there any squad based strategy games before Syndicate? That might make it worthy of inclusion.

(Oh, and Rogue is RPG, all the way. Unless there''s a category for RPGlite...)

I gotta agree with the Guru here, and I''ll put forth a tentative RTS section culling; Dune II should be one of the only games in there. All the *Craft games are hugely derivative, as is C&C. Age of Empires is pretty similar too, when you boil it down. The others I haven''t played.

Oh, and Tetris! For the love of falling blocks, Tetris!

Edit: Writer, what was the increased interactivity in Duke3d? I remember shooting bad guys and finding keys, but not much more...

X-Com! I don''t see X-Com in that list either. This is simply a travesty!

As for Duke 3D and interactivity, I remember being able to shoot stuff in rooms, sort of play pool, floors caving in, being able to blow up walls (only certain parts, mind you, but hey, the tech was primative those days) and the strippers. By god the strippers! Name one game that had/has strippers! Rated PG of course, but it is the thought that counts. Seriously, though.
The environment just felt more alive than Doom and even Quake, as a lot of the items in some of the rooms were destructable. To be fair, some things were maddeningly industructable, but you could definitely blow more things up in Duke than in Quake.

This list has issues...there a way to many titles there..

FPS

There is no way Quake 3 is on there...many people would agree despite its stellar engine it was a step back from MP in Quake/Quakeworld.

At first I disagreed because it was multiplayer only and jumppads but the more I think about it I think you''re right so I''ll remove it.

Duke3D and/or Wolf3D should be out.. Doom is enough from that Genre... Duke3D did little to innovate beyond Doom.

I agree with Chumpy_McChump here, Duke3D started the whole ""everything is interactive"" trend that is still one of the major selling points of FPS games today. For the most part until Half-Life everyone cited Duke3D as one of the inspirations for this.

I see this list as being different from merely a best of list...

Me too, please criticize all you want, I agree there''s too much on this list but I can''t figure out what exactly to take out. Like the Adventure list for instance, I''m going to prune a few right now.

NOLF out... UT out..Marathon out...Hexen out..DarkKnight out..all these while awesome in thier own way don''t deserve to be on the list really.

I don''t know what DarkKnight is, nor do I see it on the list. Are you talking about Jedi Knight? I put it on there for Saber combat and force powers, which I thought were reasonable additions to the genre.
Unreal Tournament I put on there for Mutators and Multiplayer Bots, both of which really haven''t been duplicated elsewhere in the genre, though I don''t know that it''s enough to warrant it on the list. I''m still sorta iffy on this one but I''ll take it out
NOLF I put on there because of the vehicles though I wasn''t really sure if that was enough, so I''ll take it out too.
Marathon though, one of the first FPS to have a story that was more than a thinly veiled justification for blowing things up.

HL is really the last modern FPS that innovated with its scripting...since then its pretty much only be flashier graphics...and heavier scripting.

It''s not a matter of lots of scripts with Half-Life, it''s how it was used to tell the story. There weren''t large bits of text to read in Half-Life, it all played out like a movie around you. People actually talked to you, things happened in the game world. No cutscenes at all. Half-Life''s seamless integration of the story and the game is something that every game since has been striving for, so it definitely needs to be on the list, IMO.