The truth about life in Iraq


""f*ck Saddam, we''re taking him out!"" - President Bush, March 2002

You know, Rat, you''ve used that quote about 5 times, and I''ve never actually seen any proof you didn''t just make it up. Let me guess, it cam from an ""unnamed source"", or maybe a ""US Official"", or perhaps my favorite - ""an aide close to the President.""

How about a source?

And again, there never would have been a war had Saddam simply chosen to disarm. The administration would have avoided war if Saddam had stopped lying, revealed his hidden weapons and programs (which even you, Rat, have never denied he had), and disarmed totally.

It was disarm or face invasion, and Saddam used his typically bad judgement to choose wrongly.

The quotes above show that the administration knew that Saddam was never going to cooperate and realized before anyone that force would be necessary. History has validated this and no one on these threads has ever argued differently.

"Lawyeron" wrote:
No offense Alien, you gave me your opinion about my country and I returned in kind.

No, I did not give my opinion of the US. If I''d tried you''d gotten a jumbled self-contradictory mess that''d been far longer than that. I made an off-hand comment about US conduct in Nicaragua.

The European Union can be sensitive and touchy about World War 2, but do you really think the world would be as stable as it is without America at the helm?

It probably wouldn''t be as stable. Then again, it might. It''s impossible to know for sure. But that''s not the issue. f*ck the European Union, *I* have a problem with WWII. Specifically, the way it seems to creep into every goddamn message board. Almost everytime there''s a political dicussion concerning US foreign policy, someone says ""Shut up! We saved your asses in WWII!"". Which has no f*cking relevance to any current polital issue. It annoys me no end.

I guess what set me off is you made an unsupported offhand demeaning comment about our efforts in Central America. You used small type hoping my poor vision wouldn''t detect it. I would venture to guess you know nothing of the subject matter other than your resentment of this country. My professor in college monitored the polls and so did that pinko commie liberal Jimmy Carter. Are you suggesting that he participated in a procedure where people had guns held to their head?

No. I said the gun wasn''t physically there, didn''t I? What I meant was: US supported contras are running around the country killing people. There''s unlawful economic sanctions in place. The US are contributing millions to their candidate''s campaign. Do you honestly believe the average Nicaraguan is too stupid to the math? I do not call that a free election.

I probably would resent this country too if I owed my existence to it. I can''t even imagine what that would feel like.

That''s awfully big words. Do you really feel that every country in Europe owes its existance to the US?

Just remember there''s ""freedom of speech"" not ""freedom from speech"". If you say something provacative, expect a reaction. For instance, from time to time when you make a flippant comment about my country, I''ll make a comment regarding the significance of yours. That''s what freedom of speech is all about.

It sucks doesn''t it?


I suppose you''re right. I did expect something a bit more intelligent than ""Oh my god, your country is tiny! Hahahaaa!"" Perhaps even something regarding the issue in question. My misstake. Won''t happen again.


Almost everytime there''s a political dicussion concerning US foreign policy, someone says ""Shut up! We saved your asses in WWII!"". Which has no f*cking relevance to any current polital issue. It annoys me no end.

I agree. None of us were even alive then, so it is foolish to assume that ALG somehow holds a grudge against the US for things done during WWII. Same reason I am against reparations for slavery.


That''s awfully big words. Do you really feel that every country in Europe owes it''s existance to the US?

Actually, wouldn''t the US owe it''s existence to Europe? And by the same token, yes, Europe owes a lot of its current makeup to the US. So let''s call it even and drop it.

Or, as Elysium likes to quote me, ''Get over it.''

"JohnnyMoJo" wrote:
Actually, wouldn''t the US owe it''s existence to Europe? And by the same token, yes, Europe owes a lot of its current makeup to the US. So let''s call it even and drop it.

Or, as Elysium likes to quote me, ''Get over it.''


I''m all for that.

That pretty much takes my grudge towards this thread away, losing the WWII thing is

Ok, since the subject of World War 2 seems to be upsetting our European counterparts, I''ll refrain from mentioning that 400,000 Americans lost their lives in it.

So what''s the Statute of Limitations on American victories. Can I comment about the collapse of the Soviet Union?


No. I said the gun wasn''t physically there, didn''t I? What I meant was: US supported contras are running around the country killing people. There''s unlawful economic sanctions in place. The US are contributing millions to their candidate''s campaign. Do you honestly believe the average Nicaraguan is too stupid to the math? I do not call that a free election.

I''ll tell you what, I''ll apologize for my remark that your statement is ""flippant"" if you can support what you just said. Ratboy''s a liberal but at least he sources his nonsense. If you feel competent to protest about my country''s policy, I''d like to see the basis of that protest.
Tell me where I am wrong. Your position is that currently, there is no free democracy in Nicaragua, there exists some type of duress covert or overt on the citizens of Nicaragua to vote for a particular candidate who apparently is hand picked by the U.S. government and that the contras are indiscriminately killing citizens. Oh yeah and unlawful economic sanctions, whatever that means.

Please review the results of the 2001 election in Nicaragua.
http://www.electionworld.org/electio...

Daniel Ortega, the Sandinista, lost by a measly 7.7%. Not bad considering there was a non physical gun to people''s head and millions of dollars poured into the opposition''s coffers and many of Ortega''s potential supporters were killed.

Read on about what Amnesty International has to say about Nicaragua:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/ni...

Their worst offensive is excessive force by the police. They don''t even have the death penalty. We''re Saddam Hussein''s Iraq compared to them.

Oh and as a side note, besides allegations of racisim, Finland got a clean bill of health, of course.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/fi...

Anyway, your opinion is based on make believe, and deserving of my scorn. But, no doubt indicative of a young European''s prejudicial attitude of this country.


besides allegations of racisim, Finland got a clean bill of health

Wow, when Finland is accused of having a racism problem, it really makes you realize that maybe some people just don''t know what ""problem"" means.

And what exactly has Finland go to do with this, you guys were discussing Nicarague right? No need to include Finland here right?


what exactly has Finland go to do with this

Read the whole thread.

Might be time to move the actual discussions out of this thread and into some new ones.

And while you guys are at it, could you leave the mudslinging behind?

But but some of us are not yet fully covered with mud!

Elysium,

I don''t know where you got some of these conservative guys, but the boards sure have improved since.

Its so nice not to be the only one pissed at Rat all the time, or disagree with you nicely.

Though, sadly, some of these guys are making me feel more liberal. I feel shamed.

Read the whole thread.

Sheesh, I even participated in this ''whole'' thread.

Yomm,

I''m pretty sure that the RNC had them spawned from the underground biogenetic lair to infect my happy liberal utopia.

Frightening! Who??

"Lawyeron" wrote:
I''ll tell you what, I''ll apologize for my remark that your statement is ""flippant"" if you can support what you just said. Ratboy''s a liberal but at least he sources his nonsense. If you feel competent to protest about my country''s policy, I''d like to see the basis of that protest.
Tell me where I am wrong. Your position is that currently, there is no free democracy in Nicaragua, there exists some type of duress covert or overt on the citizens of Nicaragua to vote for a particular candidate who apparently is hand picked by the U.S. government and that the contras are indiscriminately killing citizens. Oh yeah and unlawful economic sanctions, whatever that means.

There seems to be a slight misunderstanding here. I was talking about this statement

Jimmy Carter to oversee the first free election.

Which, unless I''m very much misstaken, refers to the 1990 election. If you weren''t talking about that one, I apologise. My bad.

On the other hand, if I wasn''t wrong, I''ve got some links for ya. I didn''t bother with the conrtas, as you''ve already acknowledged them earlier.

How the U.S. Purchased the 1990 Nicaragua Elections

Yes, yes. That one''s the work of a dirty liberal, I know. So here''s Bush asking for money to the opposition.

And here''s Bush terminating the sanctions, post-election.

5. The U.S. Government expects to have greatly improved relations with Nicaragua now that the new Nicaraguan government has taken office, particularly in light of President Chamorro''s commitment to democratization and to a free market economy. For these reasons, I terminated the national emergency with respect to Nicaragua on March 13, 1990.

Seems a bit like overreaction to me, declaring a national emergency because a little South American country got a socialist goverment.

Do you want to talk about how things were or how they are, Gardner?

The elections of 1990 were fair and legitimate and you''ve shown me nothing to contradict that. Your using the typical liberal way of arguing by taking a grain of truth and flourishing it with make believe. Ratboy has turned it into an art form.

""The Americans gave support to a candidate"" That must mean the elections are either rigged or coerced. ""They lifted the sanctions after the election. That must be the ""payola"" for voting for the liberal party candidate.

I''ve shot down every statement you''ve made on this subject, Alien. You can backtrack all you want, but you can not refute my argument that since the 1990''s, a legitimate democracy has been formed in Nicaragua thanks to America and without the assistance of Finland.

Now today there are no political murders or ""right wing death squads"" a term of art familiar in the 1980''s. It had a rough beginning but Nicaragua is better now than it was previously. I hope we have the same success in Iraq.

It''s ok Alien, you''ve just been ""schooled"". Hopefully, in the process of your research and your desparate attempt to sully my previously well crafted essay, you''ve learned a little bit more about my wonderful country. I don''t expect you to admit your wrong, because liberals never are, but I also don''t expect you to make ""off the cuff"" statements about this subject matter in the future.

I will consider this discussion Finnished, unless you want the last word.

"Lawyeron" wrote:
I will consider this discussion Finnished, unless you want the last word.

Are you sure it wasn''t Swedished?

"Lawyeron" wrote:
The elections of 1990 were fair and legitimate and you''ve shown me nothing to contradict that.

This is a matter of interpretation. I don''t deny that the actual voting process was (as in casting and counting the ballots, etc) was free of meddling. But the events surrounding the election leads me to believe that the Nicaraguan people was coerced.

""The Americans gave support to a candidate"" That must mean the elections are either rigged or coerced.

Funding for the campaign. I''m sure I''ve mentioned it before.

I''ve shot down every statement you''ve made on this subject, Alien.
When? I must have missed it. Do you deny that US funded contras where operating in the country? Or that unilateral economic sanctions where in place? Or that the US contributed campaign money for the opposition?

You can backtrack all you want, but you can not refute my argument that since the 1990''s, a legitimate democracy has been formed in Nicaragua thanks to America and without the assistance of Finland.

Now today there are no political murders or ""right wing death squads"" a term of art familiar in the 1980''s. It had a rough beginning but Nicaragua is better now than it was previously. I hope we have the same success in Iraq.


I don''t deny that current day Nicaragua is a democracy, and that the country sees less conflict today than before. What I was objecting to was you characterizing the 1990 election (or what I percieved to be th 1990 election, anyway) as free. And saying free elections in Central America was a republican goal didn''t sit that well with me either, considering the amount dictators the US have supported there throughout history. Frankly, I consider US history there shameful at times. It''s a lot better than it used to be though. (Not quite there yet though. Didn''t the cia stage a coup in Venezuela last year?)

In retrospect, I should''ve made much clearer that I wasn''t speaking about present day events though. Might have avoided some unnecessary confusion and mudslinging.


In retrospect, I should''ve made much clearer that I wasn''t speaking about present day events though.

That''s a good policy.

Glad you''ve learned a lot about life in Central America. I was starting to think you were one of those paranoid types like the young Germans who think the U.S. sponsored the September 11, 2001 attacks.

I still believe that''s a matter of media brainwashing, not a certain lack of intelligence

Free educated people shouldn''t be brainwashed when they have access to the truth. It''s bitterness and wishful thinking that feeds their ignorance.