TURN ON THE NEWS

I''m afraid to ask what you were doing when you saw the said privates... ;p

Sometimes it really stinks to be a licensed tatoo artist.

You''re a tattoo artist? Can I get one of Elysium on my butt?

*shudder*

Maybe I should just be a tatoo artist for lesbians.

1...2...3...

No, I''m not a tatoo artist. I can''t even draw a circle properly.

"Most" wrote:
Well, I`m ok with the thought that most americans do not care about the opinion of rest of the world. See, I`m kind of isolationist in heart and believe that its (often, but not always) wiser to not interrupt. The issue is, while americans may not care about the outside world, government does and changes global agenda on regular basis.
I`d say, it would be safer (for americans as well) to let many problems solve themselves.

Looking at Iraq as example of totalitarian regime, it would be wiser (in my point of view, again) not to interrupt. Freedom does not arise from liberators no matter who they are, freedom arises from within the people themselves. Every totalitarian regime is doomed to collapse, I know it, as I have lived in one for relatively short time. I can tell you that your perception of such regimes is a bit wrong, its not like in movies where secret agents can see people, terrified to say anything, waiting for cleaning squads or whatever.

Totalitarian regime which has *settled down* can be best described as *boring*, *apathic*, *slow*. Government officials are apathic, life is boring as hell (watching TV of totalitarian regime is like new class of torture on its own and it uses the most terrible torture techniques in the world, based on *boredom*).

Such regimes lose their control over peoples` minds slowly over time, apathy in higher echelons spreads slowly and at one point they understand that they can not control periodic outbursts of people who want to change the system.

BUT, if someone or something keeps pressure form outside, regime gets more fuel, it keeps government mobilized and propoganda machine points at potential liberators as enemies.
I think this is what has been happening in North Korea although there is so few reliable information about the state that I`m not sure.

What is the point of this paperback formatted ""War and Peace""?

Every action creates reaction no matter how right or wrong it is. If you see that some regime is wrong, amoral and so on and so forth, and its economy is falling apart and new political ideas are poping up, please wait. History has seen many empires and opressive regimes falling down, it just happens. Best liberations have been done by oppressed people themselves with little or no input from outside.

Id just like to say two things about this post.

1) A-f*cking-men. Exactly the way I feel about the subject.

2) I know, for example, Ulairi believes MAD will take down the totalitarian regimes. Other people believe sanctions or disarmament are enough. Why aren''t we asking people in Russia or another recently totalitarian government how to take down such a regime? I know we''d like to believe America was the reason the USSR fell, but there was a large part of their destruction was at thier own hands. How can we best facilitate this with similar regimes?

Of course, I already said, I agree with Most, their own people are the only ones capable of destroying thier own governments.

Just because your country is only 200 some years old and is made up of people from around the world that its people can''t be patriotic or cannot show signs of patriotism? Were the flag waving after 9/11 overcompensating as well?

I think you''ve mischaracterized what I said. First, I said nothing about patriotism. I was talking about an overcompensation of nationalism, two ideas which people draw as synonomous a lot, and perhaps under certain circumstances they can be, but in the way I was speaking have important distinctions. But, just to be clear, in answer directly to your questions: Yes, I think Americans can be patriotic and, yes, I think some of the flag waving after 9/11 had nothing to do with patriotism or nationalism.

First Nationalism - ""the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one''s own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations""

Now Patriotism - ""devoted love support and defense of one''s country""

When I was speaking of overcompensated nationalism I was speaking of the generalized perception, particularly in recent times, that to Americans the only thing really worth much of anything in the world is America. I can think of several people on this board who nicely illustrate my idea of borderline extremist nationalism. I''d argue that part of this massive egoist nationalism stems from the fact that America is still developing a national identityt. Most industrialized nations have been around for a good number of centuries and have a clear sense of what it is to be Swedish, British, Chinese, Russian, or, yes, French. But there is a continuing and raging debate in America over what precisely an American is, 1) because we are a young nation and 2) because we are so established off immigration. So, in the process of forming an American identity we tend to be a touch more extreme about precisely how important it is for American''s to be Americans.

It''s not hard to see this, I wouldn''t think, and under check there''s nothing really wrong with it. When it doesn''t interfere directly with the lives of other nations it''s fine to think there''s nothing better in the world than to be American, though there are a variety of dangers in thinking that 5% of the world''s population are somehow more valuable than the other 3.8 billion. It can also foster, without check, a racist and superior environment, but, by and large, I''m not sure this has happened. Still, my point remains that Americans make a much bigger deal about being American than most other countries (with the possible exception of France, and you see what that''s gotten them).

This all has very little to do with Patriotism, but let''s talk about patriotism for a moment.

Devoted love, support, and defense.

Not to be too critical, but how precisely does sticking a plastic flag on one''s car or taping a ''These colors don''t run'' bumper sticker to your Ford Pickup constitute patriotism as defined? Love? Maybe. Support, not really. Defense? Certainly not. Now, a flag waving outside the home of a Vietnam vet? Yeah, definitely. Someone who donates their time (with or without a flag) to a family who lost someone in the World Trade Center? Hell yeah, that''s patriotism. Enlisting in the Army because you want to defend your country against her enemies? You bet that''s patriotism. Slapping yourself on the back because wear a t-shirt? No. That''s not to say it''s necessarily bad to have a flag, in fact it''s a wonderful sentiment, but flag waving followed by inaction is almost an insult to real patriots. So no, I''m not going to prop up everyone who chanted U-S-A during football games or ever suggested we Nuke Afghanastan as some kind of national icon. A lot of people we''re very patriotic after 9/11 as long as it didn''t interfere with their busy schedule, and I have no intention of praising them for it.


When I was speaking of overcompensated nationalism I was speaking of the generalized perception, particularly in recent times, that to Americans the only thing really worth much of anything in the world is America. I can think of several people on this board who nicely illustrate my idea of borderline extremist nationalism. I''d argue that part of this massive egoist nationalism stems from the fact that America is still developing a national identityt. Most industrialized nations have been around for a good number of centuries and have a clear sense of what it is to be Swedish, British, Chinese, Russian, or, yes, French. But there is a continuing and raging debate in America over what precisely an American is, 1) because we are a young nation and 2) because we are so established off immigration. So, in the process of forming an American identity we tend to be a touch more extreme about precisely how important it is for American''s to be Americans.

I''m not a nationalist, I''m a realist.

I''m not a nationalist, I''m a realist.

And we all know what I think of that.

"Elysium" wrote:
I''m not a nationalist, I''m a realist.

And we all know what I think of that. :wink:


You think it''s really cool?