Chemical Weapons Plant Found...

We found a chemical weapons plant in Iraq. Saw this on Fox News.

Who happened to get it from Israeli sources. I won''t believe it until more news sources can verify it.

I always believed they''d find chemical weapons and/or plants the problem being everybody against the war is going to say that it''s american propaganda to justify the war, they should take some of those people out to the desrt and show them.

"kegboy" wrote:

I always believed they''d find chemical weapons and/or plants the problem being everybody against the war is going to say that it''s american propaganda to justify the war, they should take some of those people out to the desrt and show them.

Okay, say it with me now, nobody thinks Saddam is a good guy. Some people just think they didn''t go about this war in the right manner, which is not just a technicality, unless you believe ""innocent until proven guilty"" is just a technicality that you can bypass to get the ""really bad guys"". Also, thats an analogy, just to clarify. It doesn''t change a thing that they find something over there, they didn''t present anything substantial to the American people, you know the ones dying, before attacking.

I think it looks fairly confirmed. I''d like a little more information about what precisely they were working on there, maybe some validation that it was, in fact, recently used in the operation of producing WMD.

It looks to me that many of the Bush administration''s pretexts for war are being proved true. Of course, there is a propaganda angle to question, certainly the American media is going to present this war in the most pro-America way possible (they''d be remiss not to), but my take on it is that we are getting confirmation that the atrocities of the Iraqi regime in N. Iraq was significant and atrocious, and that Iraq was actively working toward the production of chemical weapons.

My original concerns for the war remain (mostly dealing with regional stability, the feasibility of post-war democracy, Islamic militant retaliation through a variety of methods, and concerns about the legality and right of pre-emptive action to name a few), but largely I''ve given up my anti-war position under the realism of action. I just hope this engagement ends as quickly as possible with the lowest loss of innocent life.

All right, there''s more word about this factory, but most say it might have at one point been a chemical weapons plant.

Okay, say it with me now, nobody thinks Saddam is a good guy. Some people just think they didn''t go about this war in the right manner, which is not just a technicality, unless you believe ""innocent until proven guilty"" is just a technicality that you can bypass to get the ""really bad guys"". Also, thats an analogy, just to clarify. It doesn''t change a thing that they find something over there, they didn''t present anything substantial to the American people, you know the ones dying, before attacking.

Sorry Pyro re-reading that post I realized I should have qualified that statement a lot better than I did, I didn''t mean ""everybody who is against the war"" what I actualy meant was those people who believe that Saddam was a good guy beloved by his people and he could do no wrong, should be taken out to Iraq and shown.

"kegboy" wrote:
Okay, say it with me now, nobody thinks Saddam is a good guy. Some people just think they didn''t go about this war in the right manner, which is not just a technicality, unless you believe ""innocent until proven guilty"" is just a technicality that you can bypass to get the ""really bad guys"". Also, thats an analogy, just to clarify. It doesn''t change a thing that they find something over there, they didn''t present anything substantial to the American people, you know the ones dying, before attacking.

Sorry Pyro re-reading that post I realized I should have qualified that statement a lot better than I did, I didn''t mean ""everybody who is against the war"" what I actualy meant was those people who believe that Saddam was a good guy beloved by his people and he could do no wrong, should be taken out to Iraq and shown.

Roger that good buddy, 10-4. No problem. I love this board, you guys aren''t jackasses. Except when you want to be, which is even better!

I can just second that. Even though I do not agree with a lot of you people on one or the other topic, I find it really interesting to see other points of views. Keeps one questioning ones own motives and views.

On the topic: The sources here mention that this factory has already been searched by the inspectors and that it might have been a weapon plant once. Also they recite US officials stating that they still have to investigate this issue further to give any official conclusion about that factory.

Elysium said:

mostly dealing with regional stability, the feasibility of post-war democracy, Islamic militant retaliation through a variety of methods, and concerns about the legality and right of pre-emptive action to name a few

To some extent I don''t care about the stability of the individual states in region. Syria/Libya/Iran/etc, do we really want these regimes to continue, just on a humaitarian view?

On the feasibility of a post-war democracy I have 1 question and 1 comment. Why don''t you think its feasible, from what most of what I''ve heard it boils down to one of either 2 reasons:
a.) They''re arabs/muslims - If this is the case you better take a long look at this view
b.) It hasn''t been done before - If this is the case I can point out a growing/stable/string democracy very close to Baghdad, its called Northern Iraq. The Kurds, a people that believes in Islam(just not the Wahabi sect of which that all people seem to care/talk about), has built a democratic regime based on not only our beliefs in human rights but also on our form of a representative democracy, in fact about a year ago a governer tried to restrict the publishing of one of their newspapers, took it to kurdish court and the court sided unanimously with the newspaper. So if it has been done before why then can''t it be done again? Especially if those that have done it are going to be invloved in the aftermath.

Islamic militant retaliation

This is going to happen regardless. The best thing we can do about this is to form strong bonds with the muslim world and hope that the current division within the Islamic faith solves its own problem(mainly the House of Saud''s imperialistic exportation of Wahabism vs the rest of Islam, trust me there is a massive conflict going on here thats rarely/if ever reported on(as in the House of Saud''s support of serbia in 1998 against the muslims in the region & the conflicts in Uzbekistan/Tazikstan between their indiginous people/views and those imported by the the Wahbist militant sects(Tajikstan has been fairly untouched but this because they deport the individuals(or the local citizens kill them off, before the authorites can get there) though Uzbekistan has had some problems)

OIn wether this war is ""pre-emptive""... yes it is. As to wether there are prior agreements that can be ""stood"" on for this war... there is.. You can very easily, legally, go back and see this is then end of ""GW1"" becuase Saddam broke the cease-fire. So this war I is perfectly ""legal"". The bigger question is... was the 1998 action on bosnia/serbia legal, which I overwhelmingly support the fact we did act? In GW2 we have legal grounds for why WE acted. in 1998 we didn''t, however you never see this brought up hmmmm.....

Besides within the US we only need to follow the legal standards that the Constitution sets out. There are no legal standards for the use of war in the International view, there are standards on what you can do, but not when/if you can go to war.

Update: Investigators believe the factory has not been in use since at least 1998. Ironically, this is right around when the UN inspectors were first kicked out and then Operation Desert Fox was launched.

Source: Associate Press

I still think Iraq has the makings for WMD. It may not be at this plant, but I think without a doubt that they have them. However, even if we do not find any I still think we are doing the right thing.

I got slammed in these forums before the war started when I said that this war could be justified on human rights violations alone. I know the world is a bad, bad place, but how can we doubt that Saddam is not killing and oppressing his own people? Acid baths, mustard gas, feeding humans into wood chippers, etc, etc.

Even if the intentions of the US isn''t to free the Iraqi people, although I think it is, and god forbid this war is ALL about US interests in the region and oil, are we so arrogant to think that the Iraqi citizens don''t deserve the same freedoms as the rest of the civilized world? If Iraqi freedom is a by-product of the evil intentions of the USA, then I''d say those are pretty good results. Now, if we cave to international pressure, like we did in the first Gulf War, and leave the people high and dry, I''ll be the first person to voice my disgust. I''ll be pissed.

I''m not trying to start a debate on this one...just wanted to express my thoughts as the war progresses. So, I guess put me in the 70% plus of Americans who support the war AND our troops. Lets just hope all works out for the best.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030407_214.html

""Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons

SARIN FOUND: Soldiers treated for nerve gas exposure""

Let''s wait until this has been confirmed and does not turn out like the white powder they found some days back.

I thought about that before I posted it. Interestingly it''s burried on page 25 of the Globe this monring, and as of 5 minutes ago still wasn''t on Foxnews.com. I would think they would be all over that.

Anyway, looks like this time it could be the real deal. Maybe the media outlets are nervous they''d look stupid again.

From the Boston Globe:

""The evacuation of dozens of soldiers last night followed a day of tests for the nerve agent that came back positive, then negative. Additional tests last night by an Army Fox mobile laboratory confirmed the existence of sarin.""

Honestly though, would it be a big surprise if they found nerve gas? I would think it would be a bigger surprise if they didn''t.

Well if they don''t find any that would be critical because that would mean the army invaded without good reason.
I am pretty confident though they will find some sooner or later.

I agree.

I didn''t think it was a particularly bold statement from GWB. ""We will find WMD"". He''s not really going out on a limb on this one.

It''s like betting on a Lakers vs. Cleveland basketball game, or a Brazil Vs. USA soccer match. Odd''s are, you''re going to win.

"chrisg" wrote:

Well if they don''t find any that would be critical because that would mean the army invaded without good reason.
I am pretty confident though they will find some sooner or later.

I think that''s been my biggest fear all along: we wouldn''t find anything to ''justify'' the invasion. My own personal reasons go beyond the WMD, but I sure would like to see the ''smoking gun''.

And the plot thickens!

Is this the same story?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...

""Maj. Michael Hamlet of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division said the initial tests revealed levels of nerve agents sarin and tabun and the blister agent lewisite, Reuters correspondent Kieran Murray reported from a U.S. military post at Kerbala.

Hamlet said a team of experts would carry out further tests as early as Tuesday on the substances, discovered at the camp in Albu Mahawish, on the Euphrates river between the central Iraqi cities of Kerbala and Hilla, site of ancient Babylon. ""

Hmmm....

""It looks to me that many of the Bush administration''s pretexts for war are being proved true.""

Unfortunately, even if they were proven(?) true, I think this will do little to change the world''s view of the war. I tend to agree with Pyroman. Or hey, maybe France will now rally to support the US.

On the flip side Mex is this story.

Pesticides, eh? Certainly speaks volumes of how desparate the administration wants to find WMDs.

Watch out for pesticide. If you eat it you''ll die.

I blame the media as much as the administration.

Looks like chrisg was right.

As I''ve said before, I''d be more surprised if they didn''t find anything.

Edit:

This quote is from the Yahoo news story link above.

""The fact that the coalition forces have come up with no clear evidence of WMD after capturing much of Iraq in 19 days of fighting has raised questions over the war''s justification. ""

19 days! Give me a break. It''s 19 freaking days. These same people were bitching that the UN inspectros needed more time, as in months to find stuff, yet they are jumping on the fact that it''s been 19 days? It''s not like we''re trying to win a war or anything.

I still have hopes they find some. And I also pray that they do not find the WMDs by being on the wrong side of a B or C missile.