support the troops and not the war?

I had an idea the other day, and I thought I'd throw it our here for you guys to pick over.

is it really possible to oppose war, yet support the troops? Supporting the soldiers in war generally means you want them to return home safe. However, to stay safe, they're going to have to end the war quickly, which means some fairly heavy fighting. If you're against the war, you want no fighting. It just seems a little odd. I'm not suggesting being against the war is wrong, I'm just curious what people think. I'm probably just full of crap anyway.

"Kriegshund" wrote:

I had an idea the other day, and I thought I''d throw it our here for you guys to pick over.

is it really possible to oppose war, yet support the troops? Supporting the soldiers in war generally means you want them to return home safe. However, to stay safe, they''re going to have to end the war quickly, which means some fairly heavy fighting. If you''re against the war, you want no fighting. It just seems a little odd. I''m not suggesting being against the war is wrong, I''m just curious what people think. I''m probably just full of crap anyway.

I think for most people (IE excluding the nuts who think Bush is worse than Saddam and on par with Hitler) they don''t want to fight the war but now that we are, they want us to win and win quickly.

The word you''re looking for is paradox. Yes, I would agree that supporting the troops and not the war is a paradoxical concept. Luckily, I don''t have to choose because I support both.

I support the troops. I love and believe in my country. I don''t have much use for Bush and most of his administration!

"Drunkagain" wrote:

I support the troops. I love and believe in my country. I don''t have much use for Bush and most of his administration!

Than you''re in a major paradox: You want the war to go really well. If the war goes really well then Bush will most likely be re-elected.

"Ulairi" wrote:

If the war goes really well then Bush will most likely be re-elected.

That''s what they said about H-Dub and look what happened.

If the war goes really well then Bush will most likely be re-elected

Believe me, I''ve thought about that. The idea of Bush in office for another four years is frightening indeed.

"Rat Boy" wrote:
"Ulairi" wrote:

If the war goes really well then Bush will most likely be re-elected.

That''s what they said about H-Dub and look what happened.

9/11.

"Ulairi" wrote:

9/11.

I think he''s pissed through that blank-check the world signed for him. Remember, elections are more about ""what have you done for me lately.""

"Rat Boy" wrote:
"Ulairi" wrote:

9/11.

I think he''s pissed through that blank-check the world signed for him. Remember, elections are more about ""what have you done for me lately.""

Americans by and large have changed their view of Bush. They all like him and even the slow economy hasn''t hurt him. Unless this war goes poorly I don''t think the Democrats will be able to beat him.

"Ulairi" wrote:

Americans by and large have changed their view of Bush. They all like him and even the slow economy hasn''t hurt him. Unless this war goes poorly I don''t think the Democrats will be able to beat him.

Again, look at H-Dub. His approval numbers went up during Gulf War I, but he still lost to a relative unknown who didn''t register on the national scene until he won a few primaries. Hell, look at Clinton and by extension Gore; great economy, great military success in Iraq and Kosovo, but got shut out in the election by the new guy.

Ross Perot also took a ton of votes away from H-Dub, putting Clinton over the top.

I guess a lot of Americans loved the ""Chicken Farm"" analogies and charts.

Remember his choice for VP? Dick Stockwell I believe? Forever will be known for his ""Who am I , and why am I here!"" statement. His resume is actually VERY impressive, too. To bad most people think he is a nut bag.

Americans by and large have changed their view of Bush. They all like him and even the slow economy hasn''t hurt him. Unless this war goes poorly I don''t think the Democrats will be able to beat him.

I dont think this is a matter of suddenly America realizing ""Oh! Hes a great guy!"" I think its more a matter of America trying to make the best of a bad situation. We have troops over there now, and some are going to die, we have to support them. If this war takes more than a few weeks, there are going to be some pissed people out there. And even if they don''t, once most of the soldiers are safe back home, the bitching will resume. People will see how sh*tty the economy is, and we will be back at square one. I don''t think Bush will win brownie points for winning a war (even winning well) that most Americans didn''t want in the first place.

Also, about the only thing I really know about politics is this, sh*tty economy == new president.

"Rat Boy" wrote:
"Ulairi" wrote:

Americans by and large have changed their view of Bush. They all like him and even the slow economy hasn''t hurt him. Unless this war goes poorly I don''t think the Democrats will be able to beat him.

Again, look at H-Dub. His approval numbers went up during Gulf War I, but he still lost to a relative unknown who didn''t register on the national scene until he won a few primaries. Hell, look at Clinton and by extension Gore; great economy, great military success in Iraq and Kosovo, but got shut out in the election by the new guy.

The Economy wasn''t great during the election. People just didn''t notice it was going to hell.

I disagree. 9/11 changed a lot of people''s view on Bush and I don''t think that view will change unless Bush really screws up. The Democrats aren''t helping them selves by standing for nothing. What the Democrats stand for is that ""bush is the devil"" no matter what Bush does it''s wrong. I don''t know what the Democrats want to do, they just don''t want to do what Bush does.

I hate the Democratic party. It''s full of sackless savants.

The ''Dems have no real candidate that has a chance and the democratic party has no real stance on anything at this time. Good luck on keeping Bush from another term.

"Flux" wrote:

The ''Dems have no real candidate that has a chance and the democratic party has no real stance on anything at this time. Good luck on keeping Bush from another term.

Again, look at H-Dub''s defeat. Nobody heard of Clinton a year before the election and the rest of the line-up was forgettable to say the least (back then there were rumors that Dukakis would run again); Bill literally came out of nowhere. Although there are hints about this Howard Dean guy being the man (for his anti-war, anti-Bush rhetoric), the best money is on either John Kerry or Joe Lieberman for the nomination.

"Rat Boy" wrote:
"Flux" wrote:

The ''Dems have no real candidate that has a chance and the democratic party has no real stance on anything at this time. Good luck on keeping Bush from another term.

Again, look at H-Dub''s defeat. Nobody heard of Clinton a year before the election and the rest of the line-up was forgettable to say the least (back then there were rumors that Dukakis would run again); Bill literally came out of nowhere. Although there are hints about this Howard Dean guy being the man (for his anti-war, anti-Bush rhetoric), the best money is on either John Kerry or Joe Lieberman for the nomination.

Dean will never win. Have you watched this guy? I saw him give a speech and he was shouting and reminded me of the movies of Hitler. The guy was all red and sweaty and it freaked me out. The guy is far-left and will never win. John Kerry is a slimy tool, wants to have it both ways and has no beliefs or sack. My problem with Liberman is what Dennis Miller has said, Liberman has ""almost done"" everything.

I wish the Democratic party stood for something and tried to build the better mouse trap. The problem is that the democratic party core hate Bush and they can''t get over their hate.
I want the Democratic party to lose big in 2004 so they will change and hopefully come up with some new ideas.

It''s run by weak men that don''t deserve to be in office. At least the Republicans stand for something.

You know what Ulairi, I like you...in a political way of course !!!!

Lieberman is a Jew. Look, I am a Jew and I know enough people in the US will not elect a Jew to prevent him from winning the Democratic nod let alone the Presidency. His stance on media ""responsibility"" censorship will kill the other percentage.

Kerry seems to me like the front runner. I can only hope a strong gubanitorial candidate comes out of nowhere. I wonder what would happen if Hilary decided to run? Which do you think the country will elect first? A woman, African American, Jew, or Muslim will be president first.

I could see Colin Powell getting elected and I could see Hilary getting elected. I could not see Lieberman getting elected and I dont know any nationaly know Muslim politicians.

After the abuse Powell has been put through, I hope he switches sides and becomes the Democratic nominee.

After the abuse Powell has been put through, I hope he switches sides and becomes the Democratic nominee.

What''s all of this abuse Powell has been put through? Powell is a Republican and I doubt he will switch sides. He might become a VP nom because Dickey boy won''t be it.

John Kerry is Jewish as well. There was this whole debate here in Boston, Jew or Irish.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A20708-2003Feb3&notFound=true

He''d also be a horrible president. During his tenure in Massachusetts he has wavered on so many topics (Taxes, war, the Big Dig, etc, etc,etc,). I think he''s also the only vet I know who burned the American flag.

Talk about someone not standing for anything.

"Ulairi" wrote:

I saw him give a speech and he was shouting and reminded me of the movies of Hitler.

And look how far Hitler went. Charisma wins you elections, not substantive ideas.

Um how about being embarrased in front of the entire world for using forged documents as proof of our country''s arguments?

there are a lot of shows specualting the goings on in the oval office. Powell is constantly trying push Bush towards reason and cooperation and away from Rumy and crew who are on a self appointed crusade.

"Ulairi" wrote:

What''s all of this abuse Powell has been put through? Powell is a Republican and I doubt he will switch sides. He might become a VP nom because Dickey boy won''t be it.

Powell was the one who pushed the diplomatic intiative last year over the strong protests of Rumsfeld and the neo-conservative ""Project for the New American Century"" cabal. Powell also feels that Rumsfeld undercut the diplomatic efforts with the ""Old Europe"" comment and by the continued military escalation in the Gulf region. SecState and SecDef do not like each other at all. If the current trend continues, one of them won''t be back for Bush in the ''04 election, assuming Bush gets reelcted.

I don''t know too much about Rumsfeld but I have read a lot about Powell and I have to say I like the guy a lot and hope that if he does leave Bush he opts to try and become a presidential candidate in ''04. I was somewhat downhearted when he said he was wouldn''t stand as a candidate in (I think) ''95

On the original topic at hand, that of the possible paradoxical nature of supporting troops and not supporting the war, I fail dramatically to see the paradox. It begins with the question of how best you can ""support the troops"". In sometimes typical American fashion, the idea of supporting the troops means to give them lipservice much like the idea of being patriotic is to have a very patriotic bumper sticker. As Bill Mahr said, putting a plastic flag on your car window is literally the least you can do. So the question is, what is it to ""support the troops""?

Many of you who ""support the troops"" have done nothing more than say I support the troops on gaming forums. Hey, good job with that! That''s some fine support you''ve been giving them. Now others of you have possibly done more and to you I tip my hat because in all honesty I truly believe the troops should be supported. Here are just a few ways someone who disagrees with the war can support the troops:

There are plenty of non-profit organization that are actively seeking volunteers to help support families with active military members.

Find someone on your block whose loved one is at war and do as little as send them a card, or as much as offer to help around their house.

If you have a business, make sure those fighting across the world have a job when they get home.

Participate in many of the programs that send cards and videos of support to those in the gulf.

And so on, and so on. None of those things have any bearing on your feeling on the war, and though I''m adamantly against the war, I''ve done at least one of those. So, you who''re so pleased about the prospect, who take the high and mighty position that spouting war rhetoric is so friggin useful, what precisely have you done to ''support the troops''.

I think a lot of people here in the States would love for him to run. But he has said because of his skin color he will not (his wife is also urging him not to for his safety).

There are a few F***ing idiots lurking in the woods who might be stupid enough to try something because of their racial bigotry.

Sad really.

"Pulse" wrote:

There are a few F***ing idiots lurking in the woods who might be stupid enough to try something because of their racial bigotry.

Same reason why Liberman or Kerry would have a hard time running. Although I don''t recall any anti-semetic threats against Liberman in 2000.

Hmmm.....

Thank you Elysium! Those are terrific ideas!

I have a lot of free time on my hands now. I was thinking about donating time to a homeless shelter or Habitat for Humanity.

Its kind of my way of ""earning"" or ""justifying"" my unemployment. You''ve got to put your money where your mouth is, no?

I agree Rat Boy. It''s going to play a big part. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. There is already a lot of criticism on GWB for his strong religious beliefs, could religion be one of the main topics of our next election that the press will harp on until we are all sick of hearing it?

Most likely.

I helped out Habitat for Humanity one summer after work in New Haven, CT while I was living there. I went out and bought a new hammer and work belt... pumped and all ready to go...I got there, they took one look at me and they had me stuffing envelopes for fund raisers.

Oh, I donated them my brand new $13 hammer too.