Sons of Anarchy Catch-All (*Spoilers*)

Gaald wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
kazooka wrote:

Also, I'm just not getting a few things so far:

Yeah, it's weird. Apparently, it's a real biker thing, and Sutter explained in a blog post that they'd get deeper into the politics behind all that later in the season. In the meantime, though, the show sure isn't selling why this is a big deal.

Yeah include me in the why should we give a sh*t column, as far as I can remember there has never been any sign that anyone would care. Weak setup as far as I'm concerned.

I think in a previous season there was

Spoiler:

a kind of black version of the SOA? Started by black Vietnam Vets, and on good terms with the SOA and all, but neither side was going to cross the color line in the biker world, even if they had served together in Vietnam.

I don't remember ...

Spoiler:

... there being a black SOA chapter, but I do remember them working with another black club, as well as the Niners, while they were at war with the Mayans. But there was still a lot of animosity/bigotry towards both groups. Maybe those were SOA as well and I've forgotten, but I thought Sam Cro double-crossed them at some point.

Just finished Season 2 on Netflix

Spoiler:

Alas, Half-Sack. We hardly knew ye.

WipEout wrote:

I don't remember ...

Spoiler:

... there being a black SOA chapter, but I do remember them working with another black club, as well as the Niners, while they were at war with the Mayans. But there was still a lot of animosity/bigotry towards both groups. Maybe those were SOA as well and I've forgotten, but I thought Sam Cro double-crossed them at some point.

Spoiler:

Not SOA, just SOA-like. I got the impression that the Grim Reapers were also founded by Vietnam Vets, but I may just be misremembering that.

CheezePavilion wrote:
Gaald wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
kazooka wrote:

Also, I'm just not getting a few things so far:

Yeah, it's weird. Apparently, it's a real biker thing, and Sutter explained in a blog post that they'd get deeper into the politics behind all that later in the season. In the meantime, though, the show sure isn't selling why this is a big deal.

Yeah include me in the why should we give a sh*t column, as far as I can remember there has never been any sign that anyone would care. Weak setup as far as I'm concerned.

I think in a previous season there was

Spoiler:

a kind of black version of the SOA? Started by black Vietnam Vets, and on good terms with the SOA and all, but neither side was going to cross the color line in the biker world, even if they had served together in Vietnam.

Spoiler:

The Outlaws, or Outcasts or something. I don't remember a Vietnam connection. I think they were just on good terms. They were also in a bit deeper than the Sons, doing some drug running and possibly some prostitution as well.

CheezePavilion wrote:
WipEout wrote:

I don't remember ...

Spoiler:

... there being a black SOA chapter, but I do remember them working with another black club, as well as the Niners, while they were at war with the Mayans. But there was still a lot of animosity/bigotry towards both groups. Maybe those were SOA as well and I've forgotten, but I thought Sam Cro double-crossed them at some point.

Spoiler:

Not SOA, just SOA-like. I got the impression that the Grim Reapers were also founded by Vietnam Vets, but I may just be misremembering that.

Ah I see, I misread.

Well, they clarified part of the confusion with that storyline...sorta:

Spoiler:

I mean, the scene was great, and Chibs made sense in that "this is an alien sort of thinking from an alien world, but I can see that there's a sort of logic behind it, even if I don't understand" kind of way. But I don't get why Puerto Rican/Latin is ok, but black isn't, and while I can see that being an old school biker thing, the SOA Rules were set JT, Clay, and Piney among others after Vietnam, not after WWII like the Hells Angels. Clay's always seemed to pragmatic to view race as a big deal, and didn't much hide that he thought Arkin, Rollins, and Skinner were morons.

But I had a realization watching this, what with Breaking Bad and Mad Men in my life now--I don't particularly need Sons to be as great as it was in season 2. I think my viewing experience will be well served if I just treat the show as hyperviolent comfort food--the fried chicken, or lasagna of beatdowns.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
Spoiler:

I mean, the scene was great, and Chibs made sense in that "this is an alien sort of thinking from an alien world, but I can see that there's a sort of logic behind it, even if I don't understand" kind of way. But I don't get why Puerto Rican/Latin is ok, but black isn't, and while I can see that being an old school biker thing, the SOA Rules were set JT, Clay, and Piney among others after Vietnam, not after WWII like the Hells Angels. Clay's always seemed to pragmatic to view race as a big deal, and didn't much hide that he thought Arkin, Rollins, and Skinner were morons.

Spoiler:

I think maybe we're bringing a modern day, polarized idea of racism to it: you're either not racist at all or you're White Power. People are more complex than that even now, and especially 40 years ago. I actually think the exploration of race and racism they're doing is some great TV. Especially because it means the SOA aren't some kind of wish fulfillment of the perfectly loveable biker gang you could bring home to mom.

Spoiler:

I thought it was just an original rule, outdated it may be, but a rule. They even pointed that out last night

ranalin wrote:
Spoiler:

I thought it was just an original rule, outdated it may be, but a rule. They even pointed that out last night

They did, but I'm still confused why it exists in the first place. It doesn't seem congruent with SoA now or as JT conceived them.

CheezePavilion wrote:
Spoiler:

I think maybe we're bringing a modern day, polarized idea of racism to it: you're either not racist at all or you're White Power. People are more complex than that even now, and especially 40 years ago. I actually think the exploration of race and racism they're doing is some great TV. Especially because it means the SOA aren't some kind of wish fulfillment of the perfectly loveable biker gang you could bring home to mom.

Well:

Spoiler:

I never said Clay wasn't racist at all, I said he seemed to pragmatic to let race be a big deal, and has shown open contempt for those who do.

Luckily, I enjoy the other threads. Hell, I even enjoy this one, even though it's strange.

I think there's room for a well-created character to think the WP people were morons, yet for race to still be a big enough deal for this plot line to make sense. After Vietnam is different from after WWII, but not that different, especially when you consider the racial turmoil of the late 70s. In fact, I think it makes for a better, more complex character. Besides:

Spoiler:

Juice isn't a mindreader: Juice's actions are about what Juice thinks they might do, his fears, etc. It's perfectly understandable for him to not be be all chill and thinking 'Clay's a righteous dude--everything will be okay'

As for pragmatism, once a black member is in, then they're no longer a 'white' club in the biker world. You might ask "well why doesn't a Puerto Rican disqualify them" but hey--no one ever accused racism being too logical, you know?

Maybe they'll take that step in the end, but I think leaving it up in the air and Juice being afraid is plot line that make sense. In fact, I think it's one of the better ones on the show--it's not the out and out racism of WP, but rather the institutional racism where people get pulled along by forces bigger than themselves/their own fears.

CheezePavilion wrote:

I think there's room for a well-created character to think the WP people were morons, yet for race to still be a big enough deal for this plot line to make sense.

Too bad the show isn't doing much to make it make sense.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

I think there's room for a well-created character to think the WP people were morons, yet for race to still be a big enough deal for this plot line to make sense.

Too bad the show isn't doing much to make it make sense.

All I can say is that it makes sense to me, and I'm really enjoying this season.

kazooka wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
Gaald wrote:
SpacePPoliceman wrote:
kazooka wrote:

Also, I'm just not getting a few things so far:

Yeah, it's weird. Apparently, it's a real biker thing, and Sutter explained in a blog post that they'd get deeper into the politics behind all that later in the season. In the meantime, though, the show sure isn't selling why this is a big deal.

Yeah include me in the why should we give a sh*t column, as far as I can remember there has never been any sign that anyone would care. Weak setup as far as I'm concerned.

I think in a previous season there was

Spoiler:

a kind of black version of the SOA? Started by black Vietnam Vets, and on good terms with the SOA and all, but neither side was going to cross the color line in the biker world, even if they had served together in Vietnam.

Spoiler:

The Outlaws, or Outcasts or something. I don't remember a Vietnam connection. I think they were just on good terms. They were also in a bit deeper than the Sons, doing some drug running and possibly some prostitution as well.

Spoiler:

Didn't the Sons offer to patch them over though? IIRC, the Outlaws(?) elected to remain independent

GioClark wrote:
Spoiler:

Didn't the Sons offer to patch them over though? IIRC, the Outlaws(?) elected to remain independent

The group I was thinking of were the Grim Bastards. Don't know how I could forget a name like that!

That was a good episode Tuesday. Poor Wayne, Clay sees right through his little ploy. Tara is really starting to fray at the edges, and it remains to be seen how much Jax can hold her together, especially with him taking off after violent cartel members on his own. Leather-jacket Jesus had me worried they were going to do a repeat of Agent Stahl's plan, setting Juice up to be killed by the club, but that isn't happening now...

Was it really wise to leave Bobby and Clay alone together in the end? Given the vote suggestion, I don't think Bobby is going to be all that happy about the situation. Piney will be kicking himself if he lives to find out that he had a chance to vote Clay out of the President seat. Do you think his shotgun loading was preparations for Clay?

Atras wrote:

Leather-jacket Jesus had me worried they were going to do a repeat of Agent Stahl's plan, setting Juice up to be killed by the club, but that isn't happening now...

Spoiler:

I don't think Juice is dead. If you listen closely after the screen blacks out there is a crack and a thump. I think the tree limb broke.

Vega wrote:
Atras wrote:

Leather-jacket Jesus had me worried they were going to do a repeat of Agent Stahl's plan, setting Juice up to be killed by the club, but that isn't happening now...

Spoiler:

I don't think Juice is dead. If you listen closely after the screen blacks out there is a crack and a thump. I think the tree limb broke.

Spoiler:

I wondered the same thing. Wondered if it was enough to kill him or just mess him up

I agree with Vega's spoiler. And I'm a little let down that they seem to be doing Stahl Redux with Rev. Smith--I liked the idea of SoA going up against someone who wasn't terribly evil.

And I, too, wonder if Piney was just doing his depressed drunk thing, or had something more extreme in mind. But the vote can't happen unless everyone is there, right? And who all seems likely to vote against Clay?

SpacePPoliceman wrote:

I agree with Vega's spoiler. And I'm a little let down that they seem to be doing Stahl Redux with Rev. Smith--I liked the idea of SoA going up against someone who wasn't terribly evil.

Well, the new sheriff at least seems to have a problem with underhanded and dangerous tactics, despite caving in twice now. I wonder if they will have time to get the gang interacting with Leather-coat Jesus (is his in-show name Rev. Smith?) before the end of the season. It seems like the club is its biggest problem this season.

Atras wrote:

is his in-show name Rev. Smith?

That was his role in Deadwood.

Atras wrote:

is his in-show name Rev. Smith?

No, sorry, he was Rev Smith on Deadwood. I can't think of the actor's name or his SoA character.

And yeah, New Sheriff (Gustavson to we few, proud Terriers fans) seems like a good guy...but now we're just back to the Stahl/Hale dynamic.

Hah, glad I'm not the only one calling him Reverend (I forgot the Smith part). When he first appeared my wife sat up and cried out, "Oh no! It's the creepy Reverend from Deadwood! I hope he's not a new character."

He doesn't really creep me out too much though. To me he's more channeling Jeff Bridges from Starman.

I don't see how they get through this season without killing at least two major characters.

Spoiler:

Juice (who via broken tree branch sounds like is still alive) is past the point of redemption after killing Miles. Clay just put out a hit on another Old Lady. I can't see how he survives another season. I think Ron Perlman may be ready to move on.

Atras wrote:

Piney will be kicking himself if he lives to find out that he had a chance to vote Clay out of the President seat. Do you think his shotgun loading was preparations for Clay?

I took the shotgun loading as him making the same Cartel preparations as the rest of the club.

Most of the people in my office believe that Terra will be dead at the end of the season.

So... good call on Juice not being dead at the beginning of the episode.

I kind of felt like I saw the end coming, but

Spoiler:

certainly not with Clay being so sloppy as to outright lie to Gemma about where he is. She is too damn smart for that to not tip her off really fast. One thing is for sure, Opie is going to lose his mind.

Also sloppy:

Spoiler:

I don't think many will buy that the cartel just shot Piney, after spending all day dealing with their decapitations.

My prediction

Spoiler:

Jemma is going to end up killing Clay to save the club/protect her son

may not see the rest of the season thanks to fox and direct tv but I am not sure I am all that invested anymore. The show went from depth of character to look whos dead in a major hurry. That is much less interesting to me.