Sexual Morality and Ethics Catch-All

I miss Seattle.

On our way home from our wedding my wife and I stopped by an "adult store". We are each 24 and definitely don't look younger than that, but had to show IDs at the door. When my wife didn't have hers she had to go back to the car to get it. Apparently stings are a concern. I just thought it was interesting that I not only needed an ID to buy something, but just to look around.

Yonder wrote:

On our way home from our wedding my wife and I stopped by an "adult store". We are each 24 and definitely don't look younger than that, but had to show IDs at the door. When my wife didn't have hers she had to go back to the car to get it. Apparently stings are a concern. I just thought it was interesting that I not only needed an ID to buy something, but just to look around.

I guess because the issue isn't so much buying what's in the adult store as the exposure to sexually explicit content? Different from, like, a liquor store where you can lick the merchandise all you want, it's not going to get you drunk.

I've debated whether to bring this up for a while, considering the subject matter. When I saw this thread existed, I decided this would be a good home for it.

My fiancee and I have been together for four years now. We were both married before, and in both cases, sexual issues were a major part of why the relationships didn't work out. As she and I got to know each other better, we both revealed that we felt stifled in our previous marriages, and felt that we weren't able to be honest about our sexual needs and wants. We made the decision early on that we wanted to be 100% open about what we wanted, and trust that the other person would listen without judgement. Very quickly, we both admitted that we didn't feel that monogamy was all it was cracked up to be.

Fast forward to today. For over two years now, we have been exploring alternatives to traditional monogamy, with very positive results. While polyamory isn't for us, we've become very close with a few poly triads and others in that lifestyle. We've been involved in a number of sexual encounters with other couples, and plan on doing more. The fascinating thing is the effect it's had on our relationship beyond the sexual. I always had difficulties talking with my ex-wife about difficult subjects. But with Jen, there's no trouble. If we can be honest about what we want in the bedroom, it makes it simple to discuss what's important to me outside the bedroom.

Recently, we've discovered a very simple truth. It's virtually impossible to keep something like this completely secret. Over the last few months, friends have found out through various sources, and it's resulted in some awkward situations. Vanilla friends often struggle to be accepting of something so foreign to them. Even worse, a screwup from Sprint resulted in a text message going to the wrong destination, and my mother found out. That's not an easy conversation.

We aren't ashamed of our lifestyle. But that doesn't mean we want to advertise it, particularly with those we know will disapprove. Has anyone else been in similar circumstances, and if so, how do you have that discussion?

Whoa. Text message to my mother wouldn't go over well at all.

garion333 wrote:

Whoa. Text message to my mother wouldn't go over well at all.

No texting plan I assume?

Trichy, you might want to PM Jonman for that one.

There must be nothing quite like polyg-sexting your mother!

P.S. plus, trichy's tag takes on a whole new meaning!

trichy wrote:

We aren't ashamed of our lifestyle. But that doesn't mean we want to advertise it, particularly with those we know will disapprove. Has anyone else been in similar circumstances, and if so, how do you have that discussion?

Yes, and boy howdy.

Wife and I were (happily) monogamous for 7 years of marriage, and have been (just as happily) poly for nearly 2 now. The question of "coming out" has mostly been a non-issue, as the majority of our friend circle are extremely accepting of alternative sexualities and lifestyles. Many of them are or have been non-monogamous in one way or another anyway, so it's not like this is something they're unfamiliar with.

Once you get beyond the friend circle, it becomes a little more complicated.

I'm out to one friend at work. I may be starting a new job where I work with him on a daily basis, and I'm aware that it may come out with other colleagues as a result. I'm OK with that - it's just not something that I'm pushing into people's faces. When they ask me what I'm doing at the weekend, I just tell them I'm going down to San Francisco, instead of going down to San Francisco to see my girlfriend. It's not like there's much crossover between my professional and personal lives anyway.

I'm out to my brother, who I'm close with. His refrain is "I really don't get it mate, I don't need you to try and explain it to me again, but if you're happy, I'm happy." Clearly, he's a good guy I barely talk to my sister, so she doesn't know, although my brother has told me that she reckons that we're swingers, which both amused me and intrigued me as to why she thought that. Of course, my teenage nieces and nephews don't need to know. Yet.

My mother is another matter entirely. She is an extremely critical and negative person, and won't think twice about telling me at great length about all the things I'm doing wrong, from not having any houseplants, to not having redecorated the bathroom, to being overweight. I've thought long and hard about coming out to her, and the honest truth is that I can't envisage a situation where she even approaches acceptance, nor where we as a family would be better off with her knowing. It would be another thing for her to criticize and nitpick at me about, and frankly, I'd rather she didn't have more ammunition to Female Doggo and grouse about. For what it's worth, my brother completely agrees with me that telling her would be a bad idea.

Here's the thing. At this point, I've been dating my girlfriend for nearly 2 years. Ours is the 2nd longest relationship I've ever had (after the wife). We are arse-over-tit in love. She is part of my family, not just some hot chick I'm boning. It is starting to feel seriously duplicitous to not tell my mother. She has met my wife's boyfriend, although of course as far as she's concerned, he's just another one of our buddies.

The flip side of that duplicity is that it's not like I discussed the finer points of my love-life with my mother when I was monogamous either. She doesn't need to know about our escapades with kink either, right?

It's a timely question, as my Mum is currently staying with my wife and I for her annual pilgrimage across the Atlantic for a 2-week visit. At this point, I have no plans to come out to her BUT, if she starts to suspect that something's going on and asking pointed questions, I've resolved to just out and tell her. She won't like it, and she'll tell me at length what a terrible idea it is, but here's the thing that I understand and she won't. It's none of her f*cking business, just like it's none of her f*cking business who I chose to marry (not that that was an issue, just using it for illustration). She's going to have to put up with it.

I've played out that scenario in my head a bunch, and, while I've no idea how it would actually go down, what, what it looks like is me sitting her down, asking her to just listen, not interrupt and I'll answer questions afterward. Then explaining that:
(a) I'm not cheating on my wife,
(b) I'm pursuing a loving, healthy relationship with someone else in addition to the loving, healthy relationship I continue to have with my wife, and that my wife is doing the same,
(c) This is something my wife and I are doing together, that it's not a threat to our marriage and that we're happy and healthy, no-one is being taken advantage of, and that there are no secrets between us regarding our other partners.
(d) That my wife and I both genuinely like and respect our spouse's other partners, and enjoy spending time with them
(e) That I don't need her blessing, nor her condemnation, that I'm telling her out of a desire for transparency and honesty.

That's what I've got.

For what it's worth, my girlfriend is out to her mom, but not her dad, who she feels would struggle to get to a place of acceptance. The wife's boyfriend is out to everyone that he's dating a married chick and no, that's not a problem.

EDIT - might be worth dropping Serengeti a PM - I know he's been riding the non-monogamy train recently too, and I'm not sure if he shows his face in P&C...

Start coming out to your mom by telling that you've been thinking a lot about becoming a Mormon lately!

As I am a monogamous guy my opinion is skewed. But I am not sure if polyamory is a lifestyle that you or the community gets value from by professing your sexuality. When it comes to LGBT sexuality, it is a lifestyle under fire at their fundamental human rights. Being Out=ensuring their rights as Americans.

Have polyamorous people faced issues of child custody, being able to adopt, access to healthcare?

Maybe it is just my open mind. But being "Out" as a polyamorist is like me trying to be out that I prefer forward cowgirl as a sexual position; in my mind.

Polyamory is very much a lifestyle that effects many aspects of life and can definitely lead to issues with adoption, healthcare, and social stigmatization.

It's not like it's just a sexual kink and something that is relegated to the bedroom. The relationships that the people build can be very real with strong, genunie emotions attached.

I'm monogamous myself but having been a member of the BDSM scene for quite some time when I was younger and I saw the effects of societal pressure destroy otherwise happy polyamorous relationships.

KingGorilla wrote:

As I am a monogamous guy my opinion is skewed. But I am not sure if polyamory is a lifestyle that you or the community gets value from by professing your sexuality. When it comes to LGBT sexuality, it is a lifestyle under fire at their fundamental human rights. Being Out=ensuring their rights as Americans.

Have polyamorous people faced issues of child custody, being able to adopt, access to healthcare?

Maybe it is just my open mind. But being "Out" as a polyamorist is like me trying to be out that I prefer forward cowgirl as a sexual position; in my mind.

Are you mixing up open relationships (where people get to have some additional sex on the side) with poly relationships (where people maintain full loving relationships with more than 1 partner)?

I don't really see that it you just have a sexually open relationship (perhaps you're a swinger) that you particularly have any need to come out. I think that is largely in the realm of "what you get up to in the bedroom". But if you have a poly relationship coming out is important because it's not just about occasional sexy times. It's not healthy having to hide someone you're having a relationship with and additionally it's important to normalise these things so people don't see it as something that "just about sex" and s{racist slur} behind your back. And yes I do think people in poly-relationships are missing some basic rights around marriage, custody arrangements, inheritance.

It's interesting how there are class and culture clashes here. It's a stereotype that French men have mistresses and that kings have companions (and the latter is sometimes a source of social standing).

DanB wrote:

. And yes I do think people in poly-relationships are missing some basic rights around marriage, custody arrangements, inheritance.

How so? If they are married they have rights. If they are a parent they have rights. Everyone else has the same rights as any other unmarried person in a relationship.

Funkenpants wrote:
DanB wrote:

. And yes I do think people in poly-relationships are missing some basic rights around marriage, custody arrangements, inheritance.

How so? If they are married they have rights. If they are a parent they have rights. Everyone else has the same rights as any other unmarried person in a relationship.

I think he is getting into with plural love, when they form a bond with your kids for example, in the event of divorce or death in the legal marriage the other lover has no rights to visit. Different sexual preferences, such as Domination, swinging can also have an impact on the married couple in the event of a divorce. That sort of "deviance" could come up in court labeling a parent unfit.

What I am more looking for is of a systemic prejudice that homosexuals presently face, or mixed race couples faced in the past.

Funkenpants wrote:
DanB wrote:

. And yes I do think people in poly-relationships are missing some basic rights around marriage, custody arrangements, inheritance.

How so? If they are married they have rights. If they are a parent they have rights. Everyone else has the same rights as any other unmarried person in a relationship.

You can only marry one person.

If you love two people then someone is getting the short end of the stick benefits-wise.

Polyamorous relationships are often seen as "deviant" by main stream culture and thus their parenting skills, fitness for being a parent, and morality are challenged on a regular basis in similar ways to gay couples trying to adopt.

In some instances people in a polyamorous situation are threatened by state laws and common law practices that threaten bigamy charges.

It boils down to the whole "sanctity of marriage" tripe that people use to prevent gay people from being married.

This is how I think about the situation, as a whole, having had a number of friends in various forms of nonstandard relationships: is everyone involved a consenting adult? If the answer is yes, then my opinion is irrelevant.

Malor wrote:

This is how I think about the situation, as a whole, having had a number of friends in various forms of nonstandard relationships: is everyone involved a consenting adult? If the answer is yes, then my opinion is irrelevant.

Tannhauser'ed.

Spoiler:

I know, not a Tannhauser'ing per se. Let me have my moment. :P

Thanks for the feedback! While we aren't in a poly relationship per se, it's something that we aren't necessarily opposed to. We aren't planning on advertising our lifestyle, but things happen, and we've discovered that occasionally we're going to be in the situation of having to explain our choices to someone whose opinion matters to us.

heavyfeul wrote:

A great new book on the subject, if anyone is interested, is Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan. As a failed anthropolgist/archeaologist, a bit of a geek, and someone who is in a 20 year monogamous relationship that is flirting with the idea of "opening up," I found it very interesting.

I cannot recommend the Savage Lovecast by Dan Savage (NSFW) more highly. I love podcasts and his is one of the best. He coined the term "Monogamish." The morals and ethics (personal and social) of sexuality and relationships is his bread and butter.

Dan Savage wrote:

Why do most people assume that all nonmonogamous relationships are destined to fail? Because we only hear about the ones that do. If a three-way or an affair was a factor in a divorce or breakup, we hear all about it. But we rarely hear from happy couples who aren’t monogamous, because they don’t want to be perceived as dangerous sex maniacs who are destined to divorce.

In my view the only things people need to have to have an ethical and moral sex life is honesty, communication, informed consent, and a healthy dose of empathy. Whatever configuration, arrangment, or behavior that comes from that should work out just fine.

I've recommended this elsewhere on the site, and am happy to second it here.

TheArtOfScience wrote:

You can only marry one person.

If you love two people then someone is getting the short end of the stick benefits-wise.

The idea underlying gay marriage is equality. If the state is going to recognize a marriage, it should treat every person equally and the same rules should apply to everyone. But that's not the situation with polygamy, because currently polygamy isn't recognized for anyone. It's a different argument for a constitutional right than the one underlying gay equality under the law.

If you can get agreement to change the law, that would solve the problem. But that's a legislative issue, not a legal one.

A great new book on the subject, if anyone is interested, is Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan. As a failed anthropolgist/archeaologist, a bit of a geek, and someone who is in a 20 year monogamous relationship that is flirting with the idea of "opening up," I found it very interesting.

I cannot recommend the Savage Lovecast by Dan Savage (NSFW) more highly. I love podcasts and his is one of the best. He coined the term "Monogamish." The morals and ethics (personal and social) of sexuality and relationships is his bread and butter.

Dan Savage wrote:

Why do most people assume that all nonmonogamous relationships are destined to fail? Because we only hear about the ones that do. If a three-way or an affair was a factor in a divorce or breakup, we hear all about it. But we rarely hear from happy couples who aren’t monogamous, because they don’t want to be perceived as dangerous sex maniacs who are destined to divorce.

In my view the only things people need to have an ethical and moral sex life is honesty, communication, informed consent, and a healthy dose of empathy. Whatever configuration, arrangment, or behavior that comes from that should work out just fine.

Malor wrote:

This is how I think about the situation, as a whole, having had a number of friends in various forms of nonstandard relationships: is everyone involved a consenting adult? If the answer is yes, then my opinion is irrelevant.

Yep, well put.

So there was an interesting moral quandry on the Savage Love podcast this week (yes I've started listening even if I lean towards the Sith, err conservative side). A wife pressures her husband to reveal his sexual fantasies and finds out he's into hardcore sadism. I think the phrase he used was "Dexter scenarios turn me on." The guy has never acted on his fantasies, but his wife is still hurt and horrified he hadn't shared this before.

So I don't know what the ethical course would be in this situation. I've always heard from relationship experts that you shouldn't hide big secrets from your spouse. Yet it also seems to me that everyone is entitled to their private fantasies, and as Dan points out in his podcast male fantasies tend to be a lot darker or at least more embarassing than female fantasies. There's also the question of how much these fantasies are a part of a person's true sexual nature and whether the spouse can trust her husband not acting on them eventually.

jdzappa wrote:

So I don't know what the ethical course would be in this situation. I've always heard from relationship experts that you shouldn't hide big secrets from your spouse.

I could see that situation being a problem for the guy if his wife isn't into sadism, because ultimately what are they going to do? She's either going to have to do stuff she's not into, or he's going to have to be satisfied with getting less than he wants. Which he might already be, given that she's just finding out about that now. Fantasies can involve things that a person would rather not act out in real life, so maybe he's happy.

I think there is a spectrum there. Fetish, Fantasy, Curiosity.

What some may call a fantasy is more a curiosity.

I am very into costuming. It is not a necessary part of my normal sexual activities. I am, however, really looking forward to the star trek skirt we just got for my fiancee. For Valentine's day I was given the give of a va-va-vavoom burlesque style corset and stockings.

My fiancee likes games. Again, this is not a part of our regular process. But she had little tags tied with ribbons on different parts of her body, with instructions for me.

We have tried some various things-feathers, rings, etc. We had some family fun with some ice cubes. Some other fun with the bathroom mirror. Baths are nice, but right now our master bath is a stand up shower.

We have had lengthy talks about people in the past who had desires we could not indulge. I am not sure why so many guys have an anal fetish. Humble brag here, I am a bit too big to make that work without hurting someone. There are also the guys into tying women up.

Sociologically speaking fetishes and fantasies can be an indication of disorder. I think choking, hitting can get into that territory. Knife play is something that scares me sh*tless. When we get into the violence and degradation, I think you flirt with that line.

jdzappa wrote:

So there was an interesting moral quandry on the Savage Love podcast this week (yes I've started listening even if I lean towards the Sith, err conservative side). A wife pressures her husband to reveal his sexual fantasies and finds out he's into hardcore sadism. I think the phrase he used was "Dexter scenarios turn me on." The guy has never acted on his fantasies, but his wife is still hurt and horrified he hadn't shared this before.

So I don't know what the ethical course would be in this situation. I've always heard from relationship experts that you shouldn't hide big secrets from your spouse. Yet it also seems to me that everyone is entitled to their private fantasies, and as Dan points out in his podcast male fantasies tend to be a lot darker or at least more embarassing than female fantasies. There's also the question of how much these fantasies are a part of a person's true sexual nature and whether the spouse can trust her husband not acting on them eventually.

The ethical course in this situation would be the wife not freaking out when her husband truthfully answers her question. Or not asking the question in the first place if she wasn't prepared for the answer.

Everyone is indeed entitled to their private fantasies. Everyone is also entitled to inquire about their loved ones' fantasies, but they should be prepared for what the answer might look like, and they should be prepared for their loved ones to not necessarily be comfortable discussing them.

KingGorilla wrote:

Sociologically speaking fetishes and fantasies can be an indication of disorder.

Most of what little evidence there is indicates otherwise (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...). Even the DSM-IV TR requires that that to present as a disorder a fetish or paraphilia must "cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning".

KingGorilla wrote:

Sociologically speaking fetishes and fantasies can be an indication of disorder. I think choking, hitting can get into that territory. Knife play is something that scares me sh*tless. When we get into the violence and degradation, I think you flirt with that line.

No offense, but this is largely bullsh*t.

There is an enormous gulf between consensual BDSM-play and non-consensual abuse, and you're conflating the two. The linkage you see just isn't there.

That's not to say that some abusive assholes won't also be attracted to BDSM, but that's correlation, not causation.