NFL 2011 Post-Lockout, Pre-Season Thread

QB competition's heating up in Jacksonville.

Gabbert apparently has a good chance of winning the starting job for week 1, depending on preseason performance. And, of course, Gabbert starting is inevitable, and merely a question of time.

If I'm the Washington Redskins, and my QB competition is Beck vs. Grossman, I'd be calling up the Jags and talking trade ideas for David Garrard.

And if I were the Jags, I'd listen.

*Legion* wrote:

QB competition's heating up in Jacksonville.

Gabbert apparently has a good chance of winning the starting job for week 1, depending on preseason performance. And, of course, Gabbert starting is inevitable, and merely a question of time.

If I'm the Washington Redskins, and my QB competition is Beck vs. Grossman, I'd be calling up the Jags and talking trade ideas for David Garrard.

And if I were the Jags, I'd listen.

Wouldn't it be better to enter the Luck sweepstakes or are you banking on the poor Redskins management trading for a serviceable QB when they should just tank... but not make it apparent as you still have to sell those tickets.

Theres a bunch of QB competitions going on which by week 6 around will devolve into "They are both crap, what are our chances at luck." Now just need to identify these teams and bet under hard

speaking of which the new Football Outsiders is out for PDF purchase. Without revealing much as everyone should go buy it and support them. They have Oakland as the worst regular season team. UNDER UNDER UNDER 6.5 wins

jowner wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to enter the Luck sweepstakes or are you banking on the poor Redskins management trading for a serviceable QB when they should just tank... but not make it apparent as you still have to sell those tickets.

Tanking it is a fun thought for fans, but not a realistic proposition in the NFL.

To have a team "tank" it, you are asking:
* The team to suffer the lost revenue of a fan base that gets a lot less interested in buying tickets, jerseys, etc
* The coach to permanently scar his resume. Coaches get hired and fired so much, keeping that win % up is critical for long-term employment, and that game tape will follow them around forever
* The players, especially those about to become free agents, to have less productive seasons and hurt their chances in the market
* The Commissioner to please not notice what's going on, lest he strip that 1st round pick and make it all for naught

Most players and coaches are always a hair away from washing out of the league completely. They have too much at stake to ever think of "tanking".

If you want the #1 pick so bad, you trade for it.

*Legion* wrote:
jowner wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to enter the Luck sweepstakes or are you banking on the poor Redskins management trading for a serviceable QB when they should just tank... but not make it apparent as you still have to sell those tickets.

Tanking it is a fun thought for fans, but not a realistic proposition in the NFL.

To have a team "tank" it, you are asking:
* The team to suffer the lost revenue of a fan base that gets a lot less interested in buying tickets, jerseys, etc
* The coach to permanently scar his resume. Coaches get hired and fired so much, keeping that win % up is critical for long-term employment, and that game tape will follow them around forever
* The players, especially those about to become free agents, to have less productive seasons and hurt their chances in the market
* The Commissioner to please not notice what's going on, lest he strip that 1st round pick and make it all for naught

Most players and coaches are always a hair away from washing out of the league completely. They have too much at stake to ever think of "tanking".

If you want the #1 pick so bad, you trade for it.

I understand all of that and don't mean outright tanking from the management to the players on the field.

But lets say the Redskins management know they are going to most likely suck and suck hard this year. Why bring in Garrard and even allow him to stop that sucking? sell tickets?

Same goes for Buffalo IMO. They looked at the QB's available in the draft and free agency and said heck lets roll the dice on Fitzpatrick. Best case he turns into a serviceable guy in a system and the Bills pull a 8-8 out of their hat to build on. Worst case it gets ugly they throw Thigpen in and that doesn't work and they are in the 3-4-5 win range and have a shot at Luck. Which is very palatable to whatever fans they have.

Come on you just want a free pick from the Redskins especially since its going to be a decent one considering their suckage.

jowner wrote:

But lets say the Redskins management know they are going to most likely suck and suck hard this year. Why bring in Garrard and even allow him to stop that sucking? sell tickets?

Winning games is what everyone on the payroll was hired to do.

With the amount of turnover there is in the playoffs every year, it does nobody any good to think they're definitely out of it.

There will be plenty of teams who will be naturally bad enough to be in the Luck sweepstakes. And Luck could very easily tear a knee or jack up a shoulder and not even come out in April's draft.

It's not like the Redskins can't possibly compete for a wildcard spot. With some better QB play and another year further into the 3-4 transition, it could happen.

A trade for Garrard would probably be something like a 3rd round pick.

Peyton Manning looking like a no-go for the season opener.

Garrard did not look good last night. Sailed a ball deep downfield for a basket-catch INT.

Gabbert hasn't pulled away from Garrard, as PFT has pointed out, but the flip side of that is that he hasn't looked any worse, and he's the rookie. While he has run away from phantom pressure, he also hasn't thrown an INT, nor even come very close to one (except on a quick slant play where the receiver stumbled and dropped himself out of the ball's path).

He reminds me of Sam Bradford in that he's not pushing the ball downfield yet, but he's making good decisions. I'm starting to see what Mayock liked about him. He's a much better fit for the pro game than the Missouri dink-and-dunk spread.

The thing that gets me about Rodgers and the Skins is this:

Everyone let Rodgers slide until late in the first round but what happens? The Packers take him the pick before the Skins! Ugh! So the Skins take Campbell with the next pick.

As a local guy I was rooting for him to go to the Skins and then the carrot was just yanked away cruelly.

Aaron Rodgers wasn't as obviously good then as he is now.

He was another product of the Jeff Tedford offense. The problem is that the Tedford offense makes QBs look good, but then they can't do it at the NFL level. Of course, it turned out that Rodgers was just that good anyway, instead of being propped up by the offense. But it's hard to evaluate because that offense really simplifies stuff, so that guys like Kyle Boller and Akili Smith can run it. So all you get to judge on film is a guy making very simple reads and not having to make any real decisions.

(Recently, Tedford has made his Cal offense more complex, in an attempt to fix its diminishing returns, so it's a little different now).

John Beck looked better than Garrard this week, so maybe the Skins should just stay pat.

Kyle Shanahan seems to really like Beck. Who knows, maybe there really is something there to work with.

Who else has a sh*tty QB situation that Garrard could improve?

San Francisco.

*Legion* wrote:

Garrard did not look good last night. Sailed a ball deep downfield for a basket-catch INT.

Gabbert hasn't pulled away from Garrard, as PFT has pointed out, but the flip side of that is that he hasn't looked any worse, and he's the rookie. While he has run away from phantom pressure, he also hasn't thrown an INT, nor even come very close to one (except on a quick slant play where the receiver stumbled and dropped himself out of the ball's path).

He reminds me of Sam Bradford in that he's not pushing the ball downfield yet, but he's making good decisions. I'm starting to see what Mayock liked about him. He's a much better fit for the pro game than the Missouri dink-and-dunk spread.

Yeah, as much as I hated Mizzou, I was really impressed with Gabbert. I think he could become really good in the right situation.

Rat Boy wrote:

Peyton Manning looking like a no-go for the season opener for the Chinese basketball league.

I think you posted the wrong link sir

Kush15 wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

Peyton Manning looking like a no-go for the season opener for the Chinese basketball league.

I think you posted the wrong link sir 8-)

That's what I get for clinging to a serial keyboard that hates USB. Just hit up PFT; I'm too drunk and tired to fix my mistake right now.

Rat Boy wrote:
Kush15 wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

Peyton Manning looking like a no-go for the season opener for the Chinese basketball league.

I think you posted the wrong link sir 8-)

That's what I get for clinging to a serial keyboard that hates USB. Just hit up PFT; I'm too drunk and tired to fix my mistake right now.

you do not know the amount of confusion you created this hungover sunday morning... and in other news the bookies have already sprung into action. 9.5 under 2.05 is now 9.5 under 1.83

*Legion* wrote:

Who else has a sh*tty QB situation that Garrard could improve?

The best bet might be waiting for the week 1 qb injury. Start hoping a guy like Flacco goes down in a heap. I could 100% see a defense first contender pulling the trigger on Garrard if they are suddenly without a qb.

*Legion* wrote:

Who else has a sh*tty QB situation that Garrard could improve?

Dolphins?

What is it with Bay Area sports teams and fan violence lately?

Pretty psyched that the Texans are 2-0, even if it is the pre-season.

Also: Murder sucks. Edit: or violence. The radio made it sound like some had died. I believe they may yet. In any case, wtf. I can only hope for severe sentences for all assailants.

Hey! Guess what? The Bengals have QB issues. Who knew?

As a Dolphins fan, I'm just not sure Garrard is the answer. They have Henne, that at best in that division, will get them close to .500 (Bush and Marshall give them an offense if Henne can it together), but I just don't see trading for someone with moderate success. There are some QB's I was hoping they'd grab (Orton, hell, I'd even take a flyer on Granpa Favre as an upgrade) - but just don't see paying a draft price for an, at best, slight upgrade.

From the previous page, seeing all the talk of Vick, I still see him as being savvy, not reformed, and loved my Falcons as my NFC team, so the wound is deep - but he paid his debt, so good luck. That said, i think he was fresh, and more accurate last year - it will be interesting this year, to see if he is the same QB from years ago - great promise, but at his core, inaccurate and as he gets older, injuries will follow. I'm still a big skeptic on him being the answer - all the other pieces are in place, so to not reach the SB in Philly would all sit at Vick's doorstep in my mind. Vick and Young, if I was an Eagles fan, would publicly have me rejoicing, and privately drinking like the world was ending tomorrow...

Pigpen wrote:

From the previous page, seeing all the talk of Vick, I still see him as being savvy, not reformed, and loved my Falcons as my NFC team, so the wound is deep - but he paid his debt, so good luck. That said, i think he was fresh, and more accurate last year - it will be interesting this year, to see if he is the same QB from years ago - great promise, but at his core, inaccurate and as he gets older, injuries will follow. I'm still a big skeptic on him being the answer - all the other pieces are in place, so to not reach the SB in Philly would all sit at Vick's doorstep in my mind. Vick and Young, if I was an Eagles fan, would publicly have me rejoicing, and privately drinking like the world was ending tomorrow...

I was extremely cautious about Vick when they first brought him in. I don't know if he's 'reformed' at heart, but I will say that he puts a ton of time in with educational/anti-dogfighting groups that have the right impact whether his heart is in it or not. He's also putting a lot more time into watching film and preparing for practice that he didn't do before. If that doesn't translate to on the field performance it doesn't help a whole lot, but one of the big knocks on him in Atlanta was that he just wouldn't put in the off the field effort, and that seems to have changed.

and, Terrell Pryor too....The Raiders.

To me, the third round seems like a good price for him, though it leaves their next draft pretty shallow. He has seemed to make strides while at OSU and has plenty of talent.

I can't help but think that if he hadn't screwed up, he would have had a first round price, so this seems like a solid bet.

Thoughts?

my thoughts are the same as yours, with the addition that the Raiders don't have a great track record recently of training up quarterbacks. Even Gannon was the product of other systems.

Jolly Bill wrote:

my thoughts are the same as yours, with the addition that the Raiders don't have a great track record recently of training up quarterbacks. Even Gannon was the product of other systems.

Yeah, but they've change their entire coaching staff like 40 times since then, so.....oh yeah.

Well, maybe he'll be smart enough to sign a short contract so he can go to the Eagles in a few.

gizmo wrote:

and, Terrell Pryor too....The Raiders.

To me, the third round seems like a good price for him, though it leaves their next draft pretty shallow. He has seemed to make strides while at OSU and has plenty of talent.

I can't help but think that if he hadn't screwed up, he would have had a first round price, so this seems like a solid bet.

Thoughts?

He hasn't played WR and has never shown anything to indicate he has the ability to play QB at the pro level. In the regular draft, he'd have been a late-round pick, if at all. The league is littered with physically talented guys who have succeeded at the college level but been unable to play pro QB, and Pryor is one of them. His mechanics are terrible and he's never been asked to run through pro-style progressions, and, by all accounts, he has a questionable work ethic at best(the one thing he'd really need to have a vague chance of being successful). As a WR prospect he's someone handicapped by the fact that nobody knows whether he can, you know, actually catch the ball. Which is kind of a problem, I would think.

He's a classic "desperately needs solid, stable coaching to have any chance" kind of player, and he's going to the Raiders, which means he will be a failure. Now, I would bet he'd be a failure anywhere, but going to the Raiders absolutely, utterly, and completely sinks the kid.

Third round was utterly ridiculous. You are the Oakland Raiders. You lack talent all over the field. You just lost your best player (Asomugha) and your most consistent offensive player (Zach Miller), and you are now blowing a third-rounder on someone who is completely a project. You do not have the luxury of spending years developing a project player, you need depth and balance. Al Davis continues to be the kind of train wreck that makes even Mike Brown cringe.

Just cringe, baby.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
gizmo wrote:

and, Terrell Pryor too....The Raiders.

To me, the third round seems like a good price for him, though it leaves their next draft pretty shallow. He has seemed to make strides while at OSU and has plenty of talent.

I can't help but think that if he hadn't screwed up, he would have had a first round price, so this seems like a solid bet.

Thoughts?

He hasn't played WR and has never shown anything to indicate he has the ability to play QB at the pro level. In the regular draft, he'd have been a late-round pick, if at all. The league is littered with physically talented guys who have succeeded at the college level but been unable to play pro QB, and Pryor is one of them. His mechanics are terrible and he's never been asked to run through pro-style progressions, and, by all accounts, he has a questionable work ethic at best(the one thing he'd really need to have a vague chance of being successful). As a WR prospect he's someone handicapped by the fact that nobody knows whether he can, you know, actually catch the ball. Which is kind of a problem, I would think.

He's a classic "desperately needs solid, stable coaching to have any chance" kind of player, and he's going to the Raiders, which means he will be a failure. Now, I would bet he'd be a failure anywhere, but going to the Raiders absolutely, utterly, and completely sinks the kid.

Third round was utterly ridiculous. You are the Oakland Raiders. You lack talent all over the field. You just lost your best player (Asomugha) and your most consistent offensive player (Zach Miller), and you are now blowing a third-rounder on someone who is completely a project. You do not have the luxury of spending years developing a project player, you need depth and balance. Al Davis continues to be the kind of train wreck that makes even Mike Brown cringe.

Just cringe, baby.

Not to mention that they don't have a pick in rounds 2, 3, and 4 of next year's draft now because of this move. Oh my, how the Raiders have fallen.

I've read they'll expect to get compensatory 3rds for Asomugha and Miller and a 4th for Gallery so they will have some picks, but YOU'RE STILL THE RAIDERS. You need every bit of young talent you can get. You need an actual long-term QB prospect, some WRs who can catch, offensive line help, corners, safeties . . . pretty much everything. I mean, that team has a very solid shot at Andrew Luck next year, and I really hope somebody is worse than them because a kid like Luck doesn't deserve to get stuck on the Raiders.

They're an utter train wreck in every possible way. Cable looked like he was pulling them out of the morass and the team was playing hard for him, but Al needed to meddle. Yuck.

So, I take you don't buy into Hue Jackson's reputation as QB tutor that is being touted by PFT?

There is no question that there are personality concerns here and that the kid has not played in a pro style offense, but there are so few QB's coming out who did get the chance to play in a Pro-Style offense.

I am sure that the numbers that he would have put up at the combine (reported sub 4.4 40 time) would have lit up at least one draft board and got him taken in the first round. He is a unique athlete with a big arm.

Add in that he claims to be willing to play any position as long as he gets a chance to try it at QB, and the price is right, even if he does fail. IMO

gizmo wrote:

So, I take you don't buy into Hue Jackson's reputation as QB tutor that is being touted by PFT?

There is no question that there are personality concerns here and that the kid has not played in a pro style offense, but there are so few QB's coming out who did get the chance to play in a Pro-Style offense.

I am sure that the numbers that he would have put up at the combine (reported sub 4.4 40 time) would have lit up at least one draft board and got him taken in the first round. He is a unique athlete with a big arm.

Add in that he claims to be willing to play any position as long as he gets a chance to try it at QB, and the price is right, even if he does fail. IMO

Lots of QBs who don't play in pro-style offenses still have vaguely decent mechanics. Pryor's are terrible; he breaks the pocket and throws off-balance constantly. Honestly, I tend to believe athletic ability can be a huge negative for a QB's development, because really athletic QBs haven't needed to become actually good QBs with solid mechanics; when things fall apart, they don't need to scan the field and find a receiver. They can take off and run, and that means they don't develop as a pocket passer. Also, he HAS played in a pro-style offense. That's what OSU runs. It's a pro-style offense that has heavily featured Pryor simply running past slower defenders when things break down rather than expecting him to stand in the pocket and deliver the ball, but it's completely a pro-style offense. An offense he has shown no consistent ability to run effectively.

He is not a "unique athlete" any more than the dozens of other "unique athletes" who can't play in the NFL. Tim Tebow is a unique athlete. So was Eric Crouch. Troy Smith tore up college football, but has been far from good as a pro. Look at all the phenomenally gifted WRs who come out of college and just can't learn route-running and all the other little things because their physical ability has allowed them to overwhelm smaller and slower defenders for years.

As for Hue Jackson, he'll be fired within two years, if not one. It's Al Davis. When the team goes downhill (and I would bet it will this year), Al dumps his coach.

I will say it again. You are the Raiders. You have zero history of stability in the last decade. You have shown zero ability to develop project players. You have shown the kind of environment that is absolutely terrible for an immature, undeveloped kid like Pryor.

He has zero chance to succeed and this could not have been a worse pick unless it had involved the Raiders and the second or first round.

Alright! I love JaMarcus Russell!

/koolaid