Catherine Q*bert-All

Enjoying this thoroughly. Partway through the third night, and loving the puzzle-mechanics. Feels fresh and not derivative. And challenging enough to be hugely satisfying, although I also feel like I'm lucking my way through a lot of it thus far, which doesn't bode well for when the difficulty ramps up.

I'm finding the story/narrative stuff especially interesting given the current state of my personal life. 2 women, you say? Who would have thought such a thing? Also, my wife's name is Kathryn, which I'm finding hilarious whenever a character in the game speaks her name.

I'm finding myself role-playing Vincent as a guilt-racked horn-dog, unable to do the right thing with either of the women in his life, mollifying both in the knowledge that the house-of-cards is getting shakier and shakier.

Jonman wrote:

I'm finding myself role-playing Vincent as a guilt-racked horn-dog, unable to do the right thing with either of the women in his life, mollifying both in the knowledge that the house-of-cards is getting shakier and shakier.

So, playing yourself with this one?

ClockworkHouse wrote:
Jonman wrote:

I'm finding myself role-playing Vincent as a guilt-racked horn-dog, unable to do the right thing with either of the women in his life, mollifying both in the knowledge that the house-of-cards is getting shakier and shakier.

So, playing yourself with this one? ;)

You know what? I was asking myself the same question at one point. It was then I decided to whole-heartedly embrace Vincent as himself instead of as a reflection of myself, if only because there isn't anywhere enough nuance in the game to play him as me.

Made the game a lot less existentially worrying.

Changing tack, it's really refreshing to be playing a game based around an early mid-life crisis, instead of saving the world from terrorist aliens. Maybe it's just that the game touches on some themes that are very tangible to me, as a dude in his 30's staring down the barrel of starting a family.

hehehe.

I somehow managed to play basically neutral, which apparently is very difficult (it's certainly the least-unlocked ending at TA). At least, I think I'm neutral -- the last time I saw the meter it was within the first tick of center; I can't actually confirm until tonight. I have to say, the puzzling is really addictive. They managed to create a very complex and deep puzzle system here, and there are often multiple ways to tackle the same issue.

EDIT: I'm really excited to go back through it again on hard, but also to play as a peg-the-needle law and chaos. Apparently actual cut-scenes, inner monologues, etc. change when you do this (you can see where the meter is during certain cut-scenes, it'll flash up for just a second).

Jonman wrote:

You know what? I was asking myself the same question at one point. It was then I decided to whole-heartedly embrace Vincent as himself instead of as a reflection of myself, if only because there isn't anywhere enough nuance in the game to play him as me.

This is a very insightful comment. I agree entirely.

Changing tack, it's really refreshing to be playing a game based around an early mid-life crisis, instead of saving the world from terrorist aliens. Maybe it's just that the game touches on some themes that are very tangible to me, as a dude in his 30's staring down the barrel of starting a family.

It's funny how shockingly normal everything seems (I mean, aside from the whole psycho horror drama thing), and how much of an impact that makes. I feel as though the writers basically wrote themselves. Sure, specific turns of phrase and such could be stronger, but I find myself completely invested in the narrative. Normally I'd be sitting back analyzing this choice over that one, or why this character was written in such a way, but I just haven't been able to do that this game. It's just...enjoyable. Every person's motivation makes perfect sense, reactions are believable and nuanced, and despite you not spending much time in the world everyone seems so complete. I think that's what bring Jonman's comment quoted above.

Minarchist wrote:
Jonman wrote:

You know what? I was asking myself the same question at one point. It was then I decided to whole-heartedly embrace Vincent as himself instead of as a reflection of myself, if only because there isn't anywhere enough nuance in the game to play him as me.

This is a very insightful comment. I agree entirely.

And by not enough nuance, I mean, Vincent is a cheating duplicitous douchenozzle, whereas I am none of those things.

I'm on about night 6, and so far the game has me zig-zagging between the two ladies with each plot twist. (Well actually, I think that there is something horribly wrong with Catherine that I don't know yet, so really I am just trying to keep Vincent the hell away from her and trying to decide whether I should direct him towards Katherine or just get him out of the whole mess.) The way they add significant complexity to the situation each night is really quite good.

I'm mostly on the loyal end of the spectrum, but God damn do I dislike either C/Katherine. Catherine just seems incredibly childish, while Katherine is so domineering. And Jonman's right, you can't really roleplay as you'd like. The best you can do is have Vincent act as you'd like, but he is always pretty much acting like, well, Vince. Which is to say, NO BALLS.

But I agree with the writing of the different characters. I found it greatly amusing to hear Toby (that's the young guy's name, right?) talking sweetly about marrying Erica, and then the other older fellows all groan in unison. Once upon a time, I was that starry-eyed young guy. Now, I'm one of the groaning fellows.

It's a unique game, and it tackles sex in a meaningful way. It actually got me thinking of how Bioware includes sex scenes in their games, and it seems a bit off base now. Catherine treats it as a complicated activity that can have major consequences, and explores it. Bioware is treating it like a reward for doing and saying all the right things, which is kind of a messed up view a lot of adolescent males have when it comes to hitting on girls. If I do X, it will lead to Y and Z. Where Z=sex.

Of course, I doubt Bioware had that in mind, but still. Puts it in perspective a bit.

ccesarano wrote:

I'm mostly on the loyal end of the spectrum, but God damn do I dislike either C/Katherine. Catherine just seems incredibly childish, while Katherine is so domineering. And Jonman's right, you can't really roleplay as you'd like. The best you can do is have Vincent act as you'd like, but he is always pretty much acting like, well, Vince. Which is to say, NO BALLS.

But I agree with the writing of the different characters. I found it greatly amusing to hear Toby (that's the young guy's name, right?) talking sweetly about marrying Erica, and then the other older fellows all groan in unison. Once upon a time, I was that starry-eyed young guy. Now, I'm one of the groaning fellows.

It's a unique game, and it tackles sex in a meaningful way. It actually got me thinking of how Bioware includes sex scenes in their games, and it seems a bit off base now. Catherine treats it as a complicated activity that can have major consequences, and explores it. Bioware is treating it like a reward for doing and saying all the right things, which is kind of a messed up view a lot of adolescent males have when it comes to hitting on girls. If I do X, it will lead to Y and Z. Where Z=sex.

Of course, I doubt Bioware had that in mind, but still. Puts it in perspective a bit.

Your comments are spot-on with what I was thinking about this game. Also, I find the puzzle mechanic in the game an excellent metaphor for the complexities of sexual relationships. It is real genius. When I first heard about this game I thought "Why the hell is there this puzzle game?" But, now it makes much more sense.

imbiginjapan wrote:
beeporama wrote:

I finally got started last night and got through the first two nights. Knowing that I can switch difficulty mid-game is comforting.

Really? I remember the Atlus guy in the Giant Bomb Quick look said this wasn't possible. That is good news.

At least that's what the main menu told me. I haven't tried it yet.

I did end up starting on Very Easy. According to this wiki, the big difference is the Power Drinks that appear on top of many pulled-out blocks; they are items that let you climb three blocks at a time for a couple of seconds. Obviously this does indeed make getting through way easier. (That wiki page also says difficulty "can be changed at any point in the Stray Sheep by accessing the Config menu of Vincent's phone.")

Regarding the story, it is a refreshingly more mature take on sex, but still not quite where I'd like it to be. They seem to be viewing marriage as purely a covenant of sexual monogamy, but most people I know in long-term relationships (I'm in my mid-30's, married 11 years, many friends both single and in multi-year relationships) realize what a small component that is and are in what Dan Savage described as "monogamish" relationships. (That is, functionally monogamous, but accepting that strict sexual monogamy for decades is extremely difficult and possibly unreasonable to expect.) Perhaps it is just unfortunate that the first confession booth question I got was "is marriage the Beginning of life, or the End of it?," which implied that marriage was an unavoidable significant change to who you are and your life. It's a little old-fashioned.

On the other hand, they are broaching a rarely-maturely-discussed topic for an audience that is probably primarily younger than me/us and doing a fair job. I do not mean to criticize so much as discuss.

ccesarano wrote:

I'm mostly on the loyal end of the spectrum, but God damn do I dislike either C/Katherine. Catherine just seems incredibly childish, while Katherine is so domineering. And Jonman's right, you can't really roleplay as you'd like. The best you can do is have Vincent act as you'd like, but he is always pretty much acting like, well, Vince. Which is to say, NO BALLS.

So, Vincent is a real character whose actions you influence but who is still more than simply an extension of the player's will? Sign me up for that.

It's a unique game, and it tackles sex in a meaningful way. It actually got me thinking of how Bioware includes sex scenes in their games, and it seems a bit off base now. Catherine treats it as a complicated activity that can have major consequences, and explores it. Bioware is treating it like a reward for doing and saying all the right things, which is kind of a messed up view a lot of adolescent males have when it comes to hitting on girls. If I do X, it will lead to Y and Z. Where Z=sex.

Of course, I doubt Bioware had that in mind, but still. Puts it in perspective a bit.

That's been one of my biggest complaints about Bioware. I haven't ventured into the realm of Dragon Age, but Mass Effect has a childish view of sex where sex is the end of a relationship rather than an aspect of a relationship. It's not just that if you do X, it will lead to Z where Z equals sex; it's that Z is the final moment in a relationship. Once you've screwed, there's nothing else to do with someone.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I'm mostly on the loyal end of the spectrum, but God damn do I dislike either C/Katherine. Catherine just seems incredibly childish, while Katherine is so domineering. And Jonman's right, you can't really roleplay as you'd like. The best you can do is have Vincent act as you'd like, but he is always pretty much acting like, well, Vince. Which is to say, NO BALLS.

So, Vincent is a real character whose actions you influence but who is still more than simply an extension of the player's will? Sign me up for that.

I was going to comment about this aspect but it got too long and turned into a thread of its own.

beeporama wrote:

They seem to be viewing marriage as purely a covenant of sexual monogamy, but most people I know in long-term relationships (I'm in my mid-30's, married 11 years, many friends both single and in multi-year relationships) realize what a small component that is...

I disagree completely. I think they tackled relationships as relationships, and took everything that it entailed in stride. I cannot describe how realistic I thought the scenarios were, for each and every character. (Well, okay, Archie's got a little creepy, but whatever.) It just seems like it's sex-focused in the first night or two, but let's be honest: that's often how affairs begin. It evolves very quickly.

So, I think I'm the only person here to finish the game? I did indeed get the "true freedom" ending, so it's nice to have that one out of the way. It's a great ending, by the way. It felt so very natural that I'm guessing it will probably be the canonical ending to me, as it just fit Vincent to a T. Anyway, I'm starting back through on a hard run; I tried normal for a bit but the puzzles were basically the same (just that you get less continues and the floor falls faster), so hard it is. Managed a gold on the first floor already. Perhaps this playthrough I actually try to work on Rapunzel some. I'm swinging full law this run, so we'll see what changes.

For those of you who are just starting, or haven't played yet, I have to say this game has given me the most laugh-out-loud moments I've had in a long time. Even more than Tim Schafer games. There are some great lines in here.

beeporama wrote:

Regarding the story, it is a refreshingly more mature take on sex, but still not quite where I'd like it to be. They seem to be viewing marriage as purely a covenant of sexual monogamy, but most people I know in long-term relationships (I'm in my mid-30's, married 11 years, many friends both single and in multi-year relationships) realize what a small component that is and are in what Dan Savage described as "monogamish" relationships. (That is, functionally monogamous, but accepting that strict sexual monogamy for decades is extremely difficult and possibly unreasonable to expect.) Perhaps it is just unfortunate that the first confession booth question I got was "is marriage the Beginning of life, or the End of it?," which implied that marriage was an unavoidable significant change to who you are and your life. It's a little old-fashioned.

On the other hand, they are broaching a rarely-maturely-discussed topic for an audience that is probably primarily younger than me/us and doing a fair job. I do not mean to criticize so much as discuss.

I think your friends may have a more nuanced viewpoint about marriage and monogamy than the population at large.

Ok, I'll admit, the game got me genuinely on the edge of my seat last night. Spoilers beyond here for the part of the game around the end of night 4.

Spoiler:

Just finished night 4 last night, and in the cinematic following it, Vincent once again wakes up with Catharine in his bed, then Katherine knocks on his door.

I was shamelessly intrigued by that scene. I mean, it's soap opera nonsense of the highest order, but it was just so compellingtakeadrink. I'm starting to develop a deep seated hatred for Vincent, although what's so engaging is that Vincent is also starting to develop a deep seated hatred for Vincent. He's beating himself up for not only getting himself into this situation, but also for being too weak to do anything to get himself out of the situation.

I'm not sure what it says about me that I find self-loathing such an effective way to empathize with a character. Probably not good things.

I haven't been this interested to see where a game's narrative goes for quite a while.

Oh, it gets better. Much better. Just you wait and see.

imbiginjapan wrote:
ClockworkHouse wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I'm mostly on the loyal end of the spectrum, but God damn do I dislike either C/Katherine. Catherine just seems incredibly childish, while Katherine is so domineering. And Jonman's right, you can't really roleplay as you'd like. The best you can do is have Vincent act as you'd like, but he is always pretty much acting like, well, Vince. Which is to say, NO BALLS.

So, Vincent is a real character whose actions you influence but who is still more than simply an extension of the player's will? Sign me up for that.

I was going to comment about this aspect but it got too long and turned into a thread of its own.

I don't disagree with you. It's a bit of a struggle, though, being used to choices in a game meaning you wrote the character. I think it is fitting that there is a disconnect between what you would do and what the character himself does. It's more like you play the Devil or Angel on his shoulder, but ultimately he still does as he desires.

beeporama wrote:

Perhaps it is just unfortunate that the first confession booth question I got was "is marriage the Beginning of life, or the End of it?," which implied that marriage was an unavoidable significant change to who you are and your life. It's a little old-fashioned.

I think they're doing the typical "give you questions with black/white answers and force you to pick a side". In truth, I don't look at it as the beginning or end of life, but more of a milestone (I don't even want to call it a goal, though milestones can be synonymous). Nonetheless, it made it tough to figure out how Vincent would feel about marriage considering his feelings up to that point. I mean, he's not really an adventurous guy as it is. To consider marriage an "end" would suggest he'd be settling down. In truth, he has already settled, and marriage would be disrupting the status quo. So even though I chose closer with comfort, I feel it in character to also claim it as the beginning of life, a potential beginning that might frighten Vince as he'd never be where he's at again.

ccesarano wrote:

I think they're doing the typical "give you questions with black/white answers and force you to pick a side". In truth, I don't look at it as the beginning or end of life, but more of a milestone (I don't even want to call it a goal, though milestones can be synonymous). Nonetheless, it made it tough to figure out how Vincent would feel about marriage considering his feelings up to that point. I mean, he's not really an adventurous guy as it is. To consider marriage an "end" would suggest he'd be settling down. In truth, he has already settled, and marriage would be disrupting the status quo. So even though I chose closer with comfort, I feel it in character to also claim it as the beginning of life, a potential beginning that might frighten Vince as he'd never be where he's at again.

I would give them a little more credit than that, and suggest that they know they're presenting you with a forced dichotomy and you're supposed to think it's unfair. Evil Teddie* is trying to mess with your head.

[size=10]*The dreamworld master's voice actor is the same one who played a stuffed bear in Persona 4[/size]

I'm so close to being done with this game.

I mean really close.

I'm not sure what to think about where the dreams are coming from. This is a bit insane. Very Japanese anime, though.

God this game is awesome.

ccesarano wrote:

I'm so close to being done with this game.

I mean really close.

I'm not sure what to think about where the dreams are coming from. This is a bit insane. Very Japanese anime, though.

God this game is awesome.

I read your first sentence and thought "whew, finally the negative reviews that will validate my decision not to spend $60 on this" and then you had to finish with basically saying you're almost done because the game is awesome....

4xis.black wrote:

I would give them a little more credit than that, and suggest that they know they're presenting you with a forced dichotomy and you're supposed to think it's unfair. Evil Teddie* is trying to mess with your head.

[size=10]*The dreamworld master's voice actor is the same one who played a stuffed bear in Persona 4[/size]

He's done a lot more than that. That's Dave Wittenburg. The whole cast is kind of a rogue's gallery in dubbed anime. Vincent is Troy Baker aka Aizen from Bleach and Greed from FMA. His buddy Johnny is Travis Willingham aka Roy Mustang. Catherine with a C is Laura Bailey. It goes on from there.

It's just as bad in Japanese - Vincent is Kioichi Yamadera aka Togusa from Ghost in the Shell.

I have now golded (did you know gold is a verb now?) the first three nights on hard. The first two weren't so bad, but man, the boss of level three, that took some zen-level concentration to get through. The hearts of confusion -- and perhaps more importantly the forced camera shift that they cause -- are just brutal. I think I have the first 25 steps permanently etched into my memory know. Second run is taking much longer, even with skipping cut-scenes, since I'm doing this along the way.

ccesarano wrote:

I'm not sure what to think about where the dreams are coming from.

Exactly where you think they're coming from. Which is to say, not where you think they're coming from at all.

God this game is awesome.

Minarchist wrote:
beeporama wrote:

They seem to be viewing marriage as purely a covenant of sexual monogamy, but most people I know in long-term relationships (I'm in my mid-30's, married 11 years, many friends both single and in multi-year relationships) realize what a small component that is...

I disagree completely. I think they tackled relationships as relationships, and took everything that it entailed in stride. I cannot describe how realistic I thought the scenarios were, for each and every character. (Well, okay, Archie's got a little creepy, but whatever.) It just seems like it's sex-focused in the first night or two, but let's be honest: that's often how affairs begin. It evolves very quickly.

Since I've only finished two nights, I'll happily admit that I'm probably wrong then!

4xis.black wrote:

I would give them a little more credit than that, and suggest that they know they're presenting you with a forced dichotomy and you're supposed to think it's unfair. Evil Teddie* is trying to mess with your head.

Fair enough: I didn't think of it as intentional. And thanks for placing the (familiar) voice!

beeporama wrote:
4xis.black wrote:

I would give them a little more credit than that, and suggest that they know they're presenting you with a forced dichotomy and you're supposed to think it's unfair. Evil Teddie* is trying to mess with your head.

Fair enough: I didn't think of it as intentional. And thanks for placing the (familiar) voice!

Yeah, some of the questions are just bizarre. Last night I got "How carefully do you choose your underwear in the morning?" or something similar. Carefully choosing was the chaotic choice, and being blasé was the law choice. Say what now?

Minarchist wrote:
beeporama wrote:
4xis.black wrote:

I would give them a little more credit than that, and suggest that they know they're presenting you with a forced dichotomy and you're supposed to think it's unfair. Evil Teddie* is trying to mess with your head.

Fair enough: I didn't think of it as intentional. And thanks for placing the (familiar) voice!

Yeah, some of the questions are just bizarre. Last night I got "How carefully do you choose your underwear in the morning?" or something similar. Carefully choosing was the chaotic choice, and being blasé was the law choice. Say what now?

If you carefully pick your underwear in the morning, it's probably because you are planning on getting some play later on that day.

I guess. I suppose the logic is there if you look for it. Like the Lindsey and Martha question, "which would you rather watch on TV? Golf or Baseball?" Baseball being the "order" choice, I'm assuming, because it requires teamwork whereas the other is wholly individual. Or something.

What? Clearly baseball is the chaos choice because you show off your tight buns, while golf is the order choice because it's a game played by old men with no libido (and Tiger Woods).

(Yes, I'm just making sh*t up here.)

Do you get the sense here that the traditional japanese take on gender dynamics is shifting here? From what I've read and seen in textbooks and western-translated japanese pop culture, it's a pretty heavily male dominated society, and the fact that the two main female characters in the game seem to be treated somewhat respectfully(?) is a departure.
I associate anything coming out of japan with the mature rating with H-games where it's almost always a male driven power fantasy. It's a complete reversal here - the marketing has pegged this as something like that, yet you play a guy who's at the mercy of his girlfriend and his new 'mistress', and being tortured every night because of his indiscretion. Not to mention also the other men-sheep in the dreams who it's insinuated are also in similar situations and being punished for it.
Just a thought I had after reading Momgamer's front page piece.

Could be. Maybe that's why they set it in Chicago.

But the persona team, at least, has always had strong female characters, so it doesn't really seem out-of-sorts for them.

I think there's a much wider variety of anime than you're experiencing, kilanash - have you looked into Shoujo manga/anime at all?