SWTOR: alliance guild discussion

This game is going to be a screaming, run-away success.

*sigh* I'm going to reply to this, even though I'd rather reply to a reply to my most recent message.

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

My immediate apprehension has become more concrete as time goes on and I *do* bring up specific issues and am basically told "Yeah, we're not planning to change that." Why? Because you already do things a certain way.

I believe that the message has somehow become muddled. Allow me to restate it, and hopefully clear the air a bit. Eldain already has a vast majority of it's membership in GWJ. This is going to be the Gray Council, which will be made up of Eldain members from LOTRO and Goodjers that haven't played LOTRO with the rest of the gang. That's it. The only thing we're not going to change is the security measures that are in place already. It doesn't make sense to just open the floodgates like you've asked based on one person's complaint. I stated the reasons we've structured the forums the way we have, and if that's not a good enough explanation for it, I don't know what would be.

The things you're not going to change, based on the entirety of your message--and this is *specifically* what I mean about the weight of tradition, you don't even realize you're making these assumptions: 1) You're going to keep using the Eldain forums, 2) You're not going to change the way the Eldain forums work (and seriously, allowing people to READ them isn't going to call spammers down on you), 3) You're going to keep using the same model of what "officer" means, 4) (I'm making an assumption here) the process by which you determine officers, which ought to be in your by-laws, which ought to be public (and if you don't have by-laws, then WTF?) (Not actually based on the message, but I'm assuming you're assuming this: 5) We'll be expected to use the Eldain vent servers.)

I would like to *discuss* the pros and cons of which forums to use (these forums, the Eldain forums, or the in-game forums), *on their merits*. I would like to *discuss* the pros and cons of keeping all or some guild discussion private (which has not one f*cking thing to do with "security" unless you don't wish people to read any portion of your forums and consider that a "security risk"). I would like to *discuss* the pros and cons of what vent server to use. And I would like to *discuss* the methods by which officers are selected and any rules, and not just say "X, Y, and Z are officers." If there are no rules, there's no need for officers except as people who have permission to invite people to the guild (my preference is: all members can) and boot people from the guild (my preference is: only a few can.)

You are making a *tremendous* number of assumptions about how things are going to work. I think those assumptions must all be discussed first.

If, in the end, on the *merits*, we decide that it's a good idea to use the Eldain forums, to use the Eldain vent, to use a specific set of officers and rules for determining new officers, that's fine. But we *should discuss it first*.

namikaze wrote:

Starting fresh means very little when you're talking about any group of people who play with each other very often. If you want to be an officer, then you just need to say so and Ranalin and I will talk about it. Right now, the Gray Council has me as the leader, Badferret and Aveleth (non-Goodjer) as officers. This is the way it will be assuming the merger doesn't happen. If the merger does happen, then we will discuss how to move forward at that point. Note that the officers from LOTRO are not necessarily officers in SWTOR. This is intentional. We are starting fresh with the Gray Council, and if some of our officers from LOTRO want to take on two games, they're welcome to ask for the responsibility. So far, none have asked for it, but I've asked them to help.

No, starting fresh means a tremendous amount when you're talking about taking a group of people who play with each other often AND COMBINING THEM WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T. Establishing firmly that everyone's opinion matters and taking everyone's opinion into account establishes that you are forming a *new organization* and setting the stage for everyone to be new to this together. It ensures that everyone starts on an even footing, with equally open expectations. To not start fresh means that even while you claim and believe that everyone is on an even footing, everyone is *not*, because some people have expectations about how things are going to be (the same as they used to be) while others are not privy to those expectations (since they've never been part of this group before.) In essence, you divide the world implicitly between the old members and the new, when you could instead have *everyone* be new.

The fact that *you* are talking about "any group of people who play with each other very often" implies to me that in your mind, whether you consciously think this or not, you see this as taking Eldain's guild and extending it by adding new people. *I*, however, would prefer to see this as Eldain and GWJ people not from Eldain joining together to make something new.

And for the record, I don't care even a little about who the officers are, only that I understand how and why they are chosen, what their responsibilities are, and by what process new officers are chosen if someone stops being an officer. The emphasis you're placing on who the officers are means to me that you expect officers to be *actual leadership*, which means I want to know what they're supposed to be doing. Because I've not been a member of Eldain, I have *no idea*, but you clearly have an idea because otherwise you wouldn't be repeating it to me so often as if it were relevant to my concerns.

Are officers just people who have the power to boot someone if they're being an asshat? If so, say so. If not, tell me what they're for.

--

We don't need to actually *change* the way things are done. But we really *ought to talk about them* before deciding not to change them.

Hypatian wrote:

You are making a *tremendous* number of assumptions about how things are going to work. I think those assumptions must all be discussed first.

I'm sorry, but you're the one making assumptions here.

Let's just move on from this. You're objection on the merger is noted and witnessed.

If you have any other objections or ideas on guild business we can set up another thread for that. Right now we need more people talking about the merger.

Hypatian wrote:

1) You're going to keep using the Eldain forums

Yes, I will probably use the Eldain forums far more for things like scheduling. For content discussion, I will read both sets of forums.

Hypatian wrote:

2) You're not going to change the way the Eldain forums work (and seriously, allowing people to READ them isn't going to call spammers down on you)

I don't see any reason to change the way the Eldain forums work. It has worked tremendously well for the last four years, and you are quite honestly the first person to complain about them in any way.

Hypatian wrote:

3) You're going to keep using the same model of what "officer" means

If you're going to assume that our model is bad, could you at least tell me what it is first?

Hypatian wrote:

4) (I'm making an assumption here) the process by which you determine officers, which ought to be in your by-laws, which ought to be public

This is a two-parter. First, the process is ultra-democratic. If someone says to one or more of the other officers that they want the responsibility, or if the officers feel they need help, the officers make a unanimous decision about who becomes an officer. Secondly, we've never once had any by-laws more complicated than: Don't be an asshat. Literally that is our only rule.

Hypatian wrote:

5) We'll be expected to use the Eldain vent servers.

Not in the slightest. There's nothing wrong with using non-Eldain vent servers. Hell, it might save me some money to not need to use the ones that I'm paying for, so I have no problems there. Making assumptions is the biggest reason why you're coming off as "that guy", btw.

I'll just sum up my response to the rest of your post like this: nothing is changing. Nothing needs to change. This thread is only there to discuss the issues that might arise as a result of any change. If you want to use the Eldain resources as a member of the Gray Council, feel free. If you do not want to use the Eldain resources, feel free not to. No one, and I mean NO ONE is making you do anything.

All this time, I've been trying to understand what the issue is behind your problems with the merger. As near as I can tell, the issue is that you don't want to play with non-Goodjers. Would you like to meet some of them? I can invite them to join us on Ventrilo or we can talk in the Eldain boards/shoutbox if you'd prefer. Being as how no one can post in the Goodjer forums without access... well, you can see how that would make it difficult to talk to non-Goodjers here.

ranalin wrote:

I'm sorry, but you're the one making assumptions here.

Let's just move on from this. You're objection on the merger is noted and witnessed.

If you have any other objections or ideas on guild business we can set up another thread for that. Right now we need more people talking about the merger.

What? You're joking here, right?

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

1) You're going to keep using the Eldain forums

Yes, I will probably use the Eldain forums far more for things like scheduling. For content discussion, I will read both sets of forums.

Here are my comments on the subject of forums:

Both the GWJ forums and the Eldain forums already exist. That makes either one a choice preferable to starting up some new forum just for this SW:TOR guild. The in-game forums at the SW:TOR site also exist, but are a rather unknown quantity. They look quite limited.

Here on the GWJ forums, we're really open to lurkers and random droppers-in, and one thing that I'm afraid is lost with using any outside-of-GWJ forums is the ability for GWJ members to check out a thread, say "Hey, that game sounds awesome based on what they're talking about!" and decide to join in. I know a lot of people who have started playing various games based on doing that, or who like to follow games they don't actually play. The down side to the GWJ forums is that they're awfully big, and an MMO has the potential to generate a lot of traffic. Multiple MMOs in the MMO forum has been kind of a mess at times.

The down side to the Eldain forums, as they stand, is that they're not open--you have to sign up to read stuff on them. They're not part of the GWJ community proper, which limits the set of people who will come by say "Oh! Cool!" and listen in and then decide to start playing. The up side is that there are a lot of people who already regularly use them, who would have to start reading two forums if GWJ were used. Of course, that cuts both ways--but the Eldain forums are a bit more dedicated (as opposed to the down side of lots of other discussion going on for the GWJ forums.)

Almost all of these points balance out, except that the GWJ forums are admittedly less convenient and more noisy, and the Eldain forums are admittedly less open. That's basically the only factor in choosing which one would be better to use.

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

2) You're not going to change the way the Eldain forums work (and seriously, allowing people to READ them isn't going to call spammers down on you)

I don't see any reason to change the way the Eldain forums work. It has worked tremendously well for the last four years, and you are quite honestly the first person to complain about them in any way.

Why not do it because it's a fair compromise? The GWJ forums are more inconvenient but more open. The Eldain forums are more convenient but less open. If the Eldain forums were open to read access, that would make it more reasonable to point people over there to read it if they're interested--they wouldn't have to sign up to read things (which is going to turn off the kind of people who simply lurk in GWJ forums while reading.)

In my opinion, this would *remove* one of the major cons to using the Eldain forums. The "some people have to read two forums" balances out, since going the other way would do the same thing to Eldain regulars, and the GWJ forums would no longer be more open. The remaining point is in the Eldain forums' favor: they're less busy and more dedicated to MMO stuff.

As far as I see, there is no down side. It does not make it harder to keep spammers out. It simply opens things up more, in keeping with the open GWJ spirit. The effort involved is clicking on some settings one time.

If there's some other actual factor rather than inertia that makes it a bad idea, I'm happy to hear it. But I haven't heard one yet. Just "we've done it for a long time" and "you're the only person who has complained", and neither one of those actually has anything to do with the merits of whether it would be better for the merged Eldain-GWJ SW:TOR community. That's the issue I'm trying to address: I believe it would be better for the community if GWJ folks were able to casually stroll over and read about the Gray Council with no effort at all from anyone.

That one change would clear up my only concern based on what I know at this moment. It seems like your rules and officer model are reasonable, now that I know what they are. And given this change, I would feel comfortable being able to tell my lurking GWJ friends "Hey, go to this URL and see the people chatting about stuff. They're good people! You should join." I would not feel so comfortable saying "You're not sure you want to join? Go join this site to see them chatting about stuff and decide if you want to join."

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

3) You're going to keep using the same model of what "officer" means

If you're going to assume that our model is bad, could you at least tell me what it is first?

I'm not assuming it's bad. I'm saying I don't know what it is, because nobody has bothered to explain. Of course, in your next answer you do explain, but up until now it was totally unclear. There were officers, somebody is deciding who they are, and that's it.

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

4) (I'm making an assumption here) the process by which you determine officers, which ought to be in your by-laws, which ought to be public

This is a two-parter. First, the process is ultra-democratic. If someone says to one or more of the other officers that they want the responsibility, or if the officers feel they need help, the officers make a unanimous decision about who becomes an officer. Secondly, we've never once had any by-laws more complicated than: Don't be an asshat. Literally that is our only rule.

That's a good rule. When you feel you need help, do you solicit opinions from the general membership, or is it purely in officer chat? When you determine that someone is an asshat, how do you deal with that?

namikaze wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

5) We'll be expected to use the Eldain vent servers.

Not in the slightest. There's nothing wrong with using non-Eldain vent servers. Hell, it might save me some money to not need to use the ones that I'm paying for, so I have no problems there. Making assumptions is the biggest reason why you're coming off as "that guy", btw.

Making assumptions is why you're coming off as "that guy" to me. I apologize for not asking specific questions (as I am doing here) until now. But basically everything I've said has been shut down in terms of "We" (whoever we is) "have no plans to do X or see no reason to change."

I see no good reason not to use a different ventrilo server for SW:TOR stuff, especially if it's prominently posted on whatever GWJ forum thread points people to the guild (including, presumably, the Eldain forums). But I did want to reflect on the question first.

namikaze wrote:

I'll just sum up my response to the rest of your post like this: nothing is changing. Nothing needs to change. This thread is only there to discuss the issues that might arise as a result of any change. If you want to use the Eldain resources as a member of the Gray Council, feel free. If you do not want to use the Eldain resources, feel free not to. No one, and I mean NO ONE is making you do anything.

All this time, I've been trying to understand what the issue is behind your problems with the merger. As near as I can tell, the issue is that you don't want to play with non-Goodjers. Would you like to meet some of them? I can invite them to join us on Ventrilo or we can talk in the Eldain boards/shoutbox if you'd prefer. Being as how no one can post in the Goodjer forums without access... well, you can see how that would make it difficult to talk to non-Goodjers here.

No one can even read the Eldain forums without access. And hell, when I signed up ranalin told me he had given me "kin" access so I could see everything and look around and get a feel for stuff. Indeed, that was the case the first time I looked. By the time I had gotten off work and had a chance to spend a little time looking, however, everything had been closed off except the nearly empty archive section and SW:TOR section, so I was rather stymied. No chance to find something somewhere stating things like "Our only rule is don't be an asshat."

I have no problem with playing with non-Goodjers. I have no problem using Eldain stuff. I just want us to talk about it. I want to understand things like what you expect officers to do (which is mostly covered now, thank you), and I want to feel like if I have a concern about it (as I do with the closed forums), it's actually being decided based on the merits of the question and not based on "we've always done it this way, and see no need to change."

Thanks.

(And I started writing this a couple of hours ago, so I apologize if more posts have come up since then. I'll check once I've posted this.) (Edit: They haven't.)

Y'all sure you should be light side?

If Jedi can't tie an idea up in council for at least six months, they're not really trying.

Super short post here, for me anyway. I'm bad. (My tag on the Tankspot forums was "Wall of Text".)

I just wanted to apologize for coming in half-cocked at the start of things. When I have an intuitive reaction to something, it takes me a while to think through what it is that I'm actually concerned about, what it means, and how to articulate that to other people. I really felt like I needed to say something, but the suddenness of this coming up threw me for a loop and this damned heat had me out of sorts to begin with. So, I jumped in and ended up trying to say that I had concerns and running my mouth off and making a whole big confusion pie. (And yeah, it doesn't help that I am very aggressive when arguing--you should see me at work arguing with folks about technical problems.)

My sincere apologies for making things messier than they should have been. I feel that two posts are most representative of what I actually have wanted to say: This post on the subject of what I mean by the weight of tradition, and how to avoid it (by addressing individual questions on their merits), and my previous post, where I actually talk about the points I'm worried about and my specific concerns. If you want to understand my point of view, I recommend reading those two and ignoring the rest. It's my hope that they're less emotional and more clear than the others, and I had really intended to follow up the first directly with the second, but didn't have time to get it all down before more posts came in. (Oh, and of the two, the second is more important. The first was trying to rephrase what I had been saying before into something more intellectual that would connect what I had earlier said to the actual useful discussion.)

Again, apologies for creating a minor sh*t-storm.

Hyperian wrote:

When you feel you need help, do you solicit opinions from the general membership, or is it purely in officer chat? When you determine that someone is an asshat, how do you deal with that?

When we need help, everyone throws in. In the very rare occasion that someone is being an asshat, it's a matter that every officer agrees upon. For the most part, the officers are also the ones that are most active in the game(s), so they tend to notice asshattery very quickly. In one instance I can remember, it was a matter of someone being an asshat in /tells, which meant the officers weren't aware of the problem until it was brought up by the player being harassed. That issue was resolved almost immediately, as none of us like someone picking on a friend.

I can only remember four specific instances of asshattery that resulted in some sort of action being taken by the leadership. Other instances have resulted in the asshat realizing that he/she isn't wanted anymore, and they quit the guild or quit the asshattery. In the times that the leadership has needed to step in, it invariably starts with a simple discussion by one or more of the officers with the asshat. If the asshat won't change their behavior, they are asked to leave the guild of their own volition. If that also fails, we simply boot the person. Again, this has only happened four times in four years, because for the most part people don't hang with people they don't get along with.

I'm happy to address any questions that anyone might have regarding what Eldain a Firimoin (the full name of the kinship) is all about. I'll gladly give anyone the spiel about our history, our troubles, our successes, and anything else that might come up. As regards the forum access, I will look into a solution that will give some more flexibility and transparency without sacrificing the privacy and security that the Eldain forum members are accustomed to. This might take some time though, so in the meanwhile I encourage everyone to register for the site, look around, and get a feel for what we're trying to bring to the table. If you have Ventrilo, you can jump into the Eldain Ventrilo server any time to test out ping, talk with members that are online, or whatnot. Instructions are found on the website's right side frame inside the "Who's In Vent?" box.

I spent some time waiting so that I wouldn't keep spamming too much--but I think if anybody else wants to post they're too busy eating popcorn right now waiting for the next explosion. Sorry to disappoint. ;>

Thanks very much for the info, namikaze. My concerns are pretty much completely taken care of with that. I look forward to seeing the Gray Council portion of the Eldain a Firimoin forums opened up.

It may also be worthwhile to put a post summing up the questions about "What are the policies? How are officers chosen? What do officers do?" in a post somewhere on those forums, in a section accessible to the general public. Given what you've said, that's very very simple and short and doesn't need to be formal in any way--but it's good to have around for people to see--both for casual browsers who stumble across the site and for prospective members as something to point to if they're wondering.

Thanks again, and sorry for the original mess.

I'm now in favor of going forward with this--it sounds like the attitudes involved are completely compatible, and I think that the noise I've made (both good and bad) has got enough thinking done that this will be a case of "Eldain folks and non-Eldain GWJ folks are coming together to create a new guild" rather than "non-Eldain GWJ folks are joining Eldain".

I wouldn't expect officers to serve any different purpose in TOR than they do in any other MMO; they exist as a rough framework for the guild, with the thankless job of enforcing the agreed upon rules, and organizing stuff. It's really not some big deal to get wrapped up in, promise.

Hypatian wrote:

"Eldain folks and non-Eldain GWJ folks are coming together to create a new guild" rather than "non-Eldain GWJ folks are joining Eldain".

I could not have said this better myself (obviously).

So what, if anything should we be doing for this? Has a decision been made or are we still discussing?

Wembley wrote:

So what, if anything should we be doing for this? Has a decision been made or are we still discussing?

Still waiting... give it till the end of the week and then we'll ask everyone to join up on the Gray Coucil guild page.

If you sign up on the Gray Council page and don't get inducted within 48 hours, PM me please... I may not recognize your SWTOR account name. TThe other day someone named Blimpie signed up, and I haven't got a clue who he/she is.

namikaze wrote:

If you sign up on the Gray Council page and don't get inducted within 48 hours, PM me please... I may not recognize your SWTOR account name. TThe other day someone named Blimpie signed up, and I haven't got a clue who he/she is.

Clearly that is Blimpie.

Sheesh...

Blimpie has been around here for a while.

Is there a link for signup?

While I don't necessarily agree with the merger, I will not try to stand in its way. I will join the Gray Council for no other reason, than to be on the same server as most of the other Goodjers. In all reality I will end up playing with 2 of my real life friends 90% of the time anyhow.

First Baadjer was crushed now Goodjer is gone.
(this is meant as sarcasm)

Are the Gray Council and the GWJ Paper Pushers going to be on the same server?

Vector wrote:

Are the Gray Council and the GWJ Paper Pushers going to be on the same server?

Almost certainly. Once the game gets closer to launch, we'll have the opportunity to link the two guilds together as rivals - this should drop us all on the same server.

Excellent.

Note, I'm going to be a freelancer to start. Big part of that is my schedule is completely up in that air.

Tanglebones wrote:
Vector wrote:

Are the Gray Council and the GWJ Paper Pushers going to be on the same server?

Almost certainly. Once the game gets closer to launch, we'll have the opportunity to link the two guilds together as rivals - this should drop us all on the same server.

If we have to drop servers and recreate guilds to be on the same server, we will. I'm hoping it won't come to that and that we'll have plenty of opportunity to plan to do things properly.

fangblackbone wrote:

Blimpie has been around here for a while.

Okay cool. I figured he was a Goodjer, but there's so many I have difficulty keeping track.

SpyNavy wrote:

Is there a link for signup?

http://www.swtor.com/guilds/33401/gr...

Remember only able to sign up for 1 guild. Best to pick what your primary faction will b. I know people will do both ehen game starts

SpyNavy wrote:

Is there a link for signup?

Guess I'm a little late to the party here, but I don't follow the whole mmo thread at all as this is the first subscription based mmo I've ever done.

GWJ is also the only gaming forum I ever visit so I'm not entirely thrilled with having to use a different one for just one game. I also, to a certain extent, agree with Hypatian about the openness of a forum. If I just happened to come across the Eldian forum and saw that it was blocked and you couldn't read anything without being approved, I would immediately move on.

I'm not too sure how I feel about moving... well yes I am, I would prefer not to, but I'm not the kind of person that would hold it up if everyone else wanted to go. I also wouldn't want everyone to stay for a few people that didn't want to go because then it would just be awkward and the guild would definitely fall apart. I fully plan on playing this game for a long time and see it as the one game that could pull me away from TF2, but I play a more relaxed style and am not that comfortable joining an established guild of people that have their more serious play style.

Seeing as how it seems to be a foregone conclusion that everyone is moving, I guess it becomes more of a personal choice now. Do I want to go where everyone else is, or do I stay with the few people that I will likely be playing most of the time with anyways and keep the awesome Goodjer Consortium name that I came up with

ukickmydog wrote:

Guess I'm a little late to the party here, but I don't follow the whole mmo thread at all as this is the first subscription based mmo I've ever done.

GWJ is also the only gaming forum I ever visit so I'm not entirely thrilled with having to use a different one for just one game. I also, to a certain extent, agree with Hypatian about the openness of a forum. If I just happened to come across the Eldian forum and saw that it was blocked and you couldn't read anything without being approved, I would immediately move on.

I'm not too sure how I feel about moving... well yes I am, I would prefer not to, but I'm not the kind of person that would hold it up if everyone else wanted to go. I also wouldn't want everyone to stay for a few people that didn't want to go because then it would just be awkward and the guild would definitely fall apart. I fully plan on playing this game for a long time and see it as the one game that could pull me away from TF2, but I play a more relaxed style and am not that comfortable joining an established guild of people that have their more serious play style.

Another reminder on this:

The use of the other website shouldnt be an issue. While it will be possible for you to miss out on some conversations held on that side you dont NEED to go there. Others can correct me if i'm wrong, but for LotRO they have GWJrs who never use their website.

The fact it's not laid out or structured the same as GWJ (in fact GWJ is an abnormality in this regard when it comes to guild sites) shouldnt matter because we'll still be going here just like we do now.

Seeing as how it seems to be a foregone conclusion that everyone is moving, I guess it becomes more of a personal choice now. Do I want to go where everyone else is, or do I stay with the few people that I will likely be playing most of the time with anyways and keep the awesome Goodjer Consortium name that I came up with :)

Not a forgone conclusion. If there's a significant number that dont want to move we wont because it defeats the purpose of the merger.

ukickmydog wrote:

Guess I'm a little late to the party here, but I don't follow the whole mmo thread at all as this is the first subscription based mmo I've ever done.

GWJ is also the only gaming forum I ever visit so I'm not entirely thrilled with having to use a different one for just one game. I also, to a certain extent, agree with Hypatian about the openness of a forum. If I just happened to come across the Eldian forum and saw that it was blocked and you couldn't read anything without being approved, I would immediately move on.

I'm not too sure how I feel about moving... well yes I am, I would prefer not to, but I'm not the kind of person that would hold it up if everyone else wanted to go. I also wouldn't want everyone to stay for a few people that didn't want to go because then it would just be awkward and the guild would definitely fall apart. I fully plan on playing this game for a long time and see it as the one game that could pull me away from TF2, but I play a more relaxed style and am not that comfortable joining an established guild of people that have their more serious play style.

Seeing as how it seems to be a foregone conclusion that everyone is moving, I guess it becomes more of a personal choice now. Do I want to go where everyone else is, or do I stay with the few people that I will likely be playing most of the time with anyways and keep the awesome Goodjer Consortium name that I came up with :)

Bother all that! You can join my one man guild! We can travel the galaxy as a tandem, destroying all that's evil and annoying (ie: supie).

It helps that I am in the same boat as you. I have never been a part of a subscription MMO (with a brief, most single player, excursion into WoW) nor am I at all willing to go to another forum.

Just to emphasize ranlin's point, registering and using the eldain forums will be entirely optional. The only possible exception to that might be end game scheduling.

Currently, eldain does have a number of goodger who rarely if ever visit those forums.

Finally, all of the officers would communicate important information via both forums as well as in game.

Whoa, we're moving? I just found this thread today... and we're already leaving? Why can't we just have 1 large SWTOR thread so I don't have to keep on running around to find out what's new with the community?