2011 MLB Season Discussion

AndrewA wrote:

Question: have you watched replays of the play we're talking about here? Did you see Cousins basically ignore the plate in order to launch himself at Posey (who wasn't as firmly in the base path as people seem to think he was - see here)? That sh*t's not clean regardless - I don't care where the catcher is, you just can't launch yourself into him like that - it's reckless.

And I wonder if you saw the play? It's an upper body collision where Posey rolled back on to his ankle. Again, look where Posey's eyes are, where his leg is at. His foot is on the chalk of the third-base line. It's an entirely clean play -- there was no intent to injury anybody here. Posey was blocking the base path, and Cousins (Who is struggling to keep his job, mind you) needed to touch the plate.

What's your definition of a "clean play"? Should Cousins just stop and stand there until Posey either moves, or is tagged out?

Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:

Wanna ban throwing inside while we're at it?

Pitchers can be ejected if the ump feels that they were intentionally trying to hit a batter. Inside throwing is different than intentionally beaning a guy.

Wait, you just argued that intent doesn't matter above.

Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:

Against guys jumping at the warning track?

That's self inflicted, and definitely fine and you know it. Trying to equate an athletic play to intentionally plowing someone is not particularly ingenious.

Posey's injury was self-inflicted. Blocking the plate without your eye on the runner is just as reckless as running in to a wall.

Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:

Or maybe freak accidents happen from time to time.

Freak accidents totally happen - and that's fine. Like Yunel Escobar sliding hard into third and concussing himself on the thirdbaseman's knee earlier this season. Or players colliding hard when going for popflys. There's no intent to injure in those plays.... but there was in the Posey/Cousins collision, and that's the difference.

Again, where is Cousins' intent to injure Posey? His intent was to knock lose the ball.

Even if Cousins feels bad now, he can't deny that he intentionally ran over Posey at top speed when he had a choice not to do so.... he could have tried to slide around him, for example.... I watches Jose Bautista do that brilliantly not too long ago when a catcher was blocking the plate in a similar manner.

So the guy in body armor can sit on the plate and obstruct the base paths?

This is definitely a question of intent -- Cousins did not come in spiking Posey here or something. Clean hit to the upper body to dislodge the ball. Want to see intent? Look up Nyjer Morgan's highlight reel of 2010. Only reason I'm willing to even say he had intent was because olf the frequency of incidents anyhow. Nobody called for a rule change when Morgan took out Brett Hayes and f*cked his shoulder. We're only getting this because Posey's a superstar and his agent went on TV about this.

I've calmed down a bit, being a Posey/Lincecum/Wilson fan. I've been listening to MLB Network on and off today and the panel there, after several viewings in slow mo from every angle conceivable that it was a clean hit and just a very unfortunate incident. What one panelist mentioned and holds true, is one of several great things about baseball is how pure it has stayed from inception. Unlike football which seems to have new rules and conditions each season, or basketball with it's ...this and that. Baseball is pretty much been the same since day one. Yes, DH was introduced. The mound has gone up and down a bit. But beyond those small things it's been more about equipment, players conditioning. Things happen. But too, because of all the equipment, conditioning, muscle building, injuries will occur more unless some adjustment is done...or not. It's a tough call.

Nightmare wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:

Where's the outrage about hard slides in to second and Tsuyoshi Nishioka?

Right here. That was a dirty f*cking play.

No way that was dirty. No way at all. Unfortunate he broke his leg but that's how it sometimes goes playing with the big boys.

First, he slides well away from the base. This isn't "dirty" as it has become standard practice but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Second, he kicks his leg out and up to catch Nishioka. That's f*cking dirty.

I could care less what Gardenhire has to say about anything. The man is a complete moron and his vocabulary is filled entirely with baseball cliches.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Nightmare wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Oreo_Speedwagon wrote:

Where's the outrage about hard slides in to second and Tsuyoshi Nishioka?

Right here. That was a dirty f*cking play.

No way that was dirty. No way at all. Unfortunate he broke his leg but that's how it sometimes goes playing with the big boys.

First, he slides well away from the base. This isn't "dirty" as it has become standard practice but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Second, he kicks his leg out and up to catch Nishioka. That's f*cking dirty.

I could care less what Gardenhire has to say about anything. The man is a complete moron and his vocabulary is filled entirely with baseball cliches.

It just wasn't dirty. He was well within where you can slide and not be called out for going out of the baselines. If he went that far to avoid a tag, it would be legal. And damn right he tried to trip the guy up, as anyone who played baseball was taught to do if they grew up playing baseball. The result was painful, but to call it dirty is to not understand how the game is played.

Most of the time, that play just results in a bad or no throw, and no injury. I just don't see the runner trying to hurt anyone on that play.

What one panelist mentioned and holds true, is one of several great things about baseball is how pure it has stayed from inception.

lol... I dont have a dog in the race...since honestly both players seemed to be at fault on the play.. but baseball "pure"?? The league that practically encouraged its players to load up on Steroids and then pretended like it didn't exist until it go so ridiculous that if they didn't do something we'd all be watching bodybuilders attempting to still play a form of baseball.

A league that will go out of their way to ensure that Pete Rose never ever gets back into baseball or the hall of fame in any way shape or form but will all but lay out a red carpet for Mark McGwire who cheated the fans out of one of the most historic records in baseball.

TheGameguru wrote:
What one panelist mentioned and holds true, is one of several great things about baseball is how pure it has stayed from inception.

lol... I dont have a dog in the race...since honestly both players seemed to be at fault on the play.. but baseball "pure"?? The league that practically encouraged its players to load up on Steroids and then pretended like it didn't exist until it go so ridiculous that if they didn't do something we'd all be watching bodybuilders attempting to still play a form of baseball.

A league that will go out of their way to ensure that Pete Rose never ever gets back into baseball or the hall of fame in any way shape or form but will all but lay out a red carpet for Mark McGwire who cheated the fans out of one of the most historic records in baseball.

Yep, the same league that has looked the other ways for years as players used amphetamines to get through the grind of a season since the 20's.

I can't agree more with your assessment about baseball encouraging the use of steroids. The only thing I would add is that fans were generally aware of it the entire time. I am positive that fans in St. Louis held an assumption that McGwire was juicing. I certainly did. Steroids were already in the news, and it was just one of several theories on the explosion of power numbers in the 90's.

It's not pure, but the rules have basically stayed the same. It still sickens me that the DH has not been run out of the sport, though.

Jayhawker wrote:

The result was painful, but to call it dirty is to not understand how the game is played.

First off, bite me. I think I know a thing or two about baseball. There's no need to be a condescending prick just because somebody has a different opinion.

As I mentioned, yes, sliding away from the bag, the "takeout" slide, has become standard practice. That doesn't mean I have to like it. It's probably just a coincidence that I feel this way and I'm a fan of a team that rarely tries to break-up a double play by sliding into a fielder (despite hitting into a lot of double plays).

Tripping a guy, no matter what the intent, is bush leauge.

iaintgotnopants wrote:

Tripping a guy, no matter what the intent, is bush leauge.

Know what's bush league?

A party without guacamole.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

The result was painful, but to call it dirty is to not understand how the game is played.

First off, bite me. I think I know a thing or two about baseball. There's no need to be a condescending prick just because somebody has a different opinion.

As I mentioned, yes, sliding away from the bag, the "takeout" slide, has become standard practice. That doesn't mean I have to like it. It's probably just a coincidence that I feel this way and I'm a fan of a team that rarely tries to break-up a double play by sliding into a fielder (despite hitting into a lot of double plays).

Tripping a guy, no matter what the intent, is bush leauge.

It became "standard practice" about one hundred years ago. And I don't think you have to like it. But if you call it dirty, you are pretending that 99% of ballplayers would not do the same thing. Listen to the broadcasters in the video. No one really believes it was dirty. And there is no way that slide was meant to hurt anyone.

Calling me names really doesn't alter the fact that what you are trying to say isn't a reflection of reality.

And what team are you fan of, since your manager seems to be in favor of just those kinds of plays?

Jayhawker wrote:

It became "standard practice" about one hundred years ago. And I don't think you have to like it. But if you call it dirty, you are pretending that 99% of ballplayers would not do the same thing.

As I have said three times now, the slide itself isn't dirty. I still don't like that people slide away from the bag but that's not dirty.

The dirty part was the leg whip. In every other sports whipping your legs into another players legs is a penalty.

Jayhawker wrote:

Listen to the broadcasters in the video. No one really believes it was dirty.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to take the word of the broadcasters on the Yankees Entertainment and Sports Network as the end all be all on this matter.

Jayhawker wrote:

Calling me names really doesn't alter the fact that what you are trying to say isn't a reflection of reality.

If you don't want to be called a condescending prick, don't be a condescending prick.

Jayhawker wrote:

And what team are you fan of, since your manager seems to be in favor of just those kinds of plays?

The manager that I previously called a moron? He may be a fan of them but his team doesn't do them often. I can't remember the last time I saw a Twins player slide that far off the base.

Nightmare wrote:

Edit: Redacted rant upon reflection.

I wish I had taken your lead.

TheGameguru wrote:
What one panelist mentioned and holds true, is one of several great things about baseball is how pure it has stayed from inception.

lol... I dont have a dog in the race...since honestly both players seemed to be at fault on the play.. but baseball "pure"?? The league that practically encouraged its players to load up on Steroids and then pretended like it didn't exist until it go so ridiculous that if they didn't do something we'd all be watching bodybuilders attempting to still play a form of baseball.

A league that will go out of their way to ensure that Pete Rose never ever gets back into baseball or the hall of fame in any way shape or form but will all but lay out a red carpet for Mark McGwire who cheated the fans out of one of the most historic records in baseball.

I'm talking about the game, not greedy, corruptible people. And a bull headed commissioner regarding Rose...etc. Get it? The Game, not the politics, drugs etc. THE GAME, eh.

I'm kind of disappointed with the turn all this took, so I'll keep it short, mainly because everyone's right and everyone's wrong.

Cousins isn't obligated to take the cleaner path. It's definitely there, but Posey was blocking(although he simply needed to catch the ball to be clear on that count) and even though the hit by Cousins is totally legal, that doesn't make it good sportsmanship to launch yourself violently at speed into the catcher the way he did. And I say that having done something similar playing *little league*. Yes, I have cleaned the clock of a catcher blocking the path stealing home.

The hit on Nishiyoma was dirty, period. He dropped to slide into a base where he'd already been base tagged out, and then swept the leg like he was a proud member of the Cobra Kai dojo or some garbage. So, again: Legal? Probably. Sportsmanlike? Absolutely not.

TL;DR: Just because it's legal doesn't mean you should do it, and just because you can do it doesn't make you a good sport.

AnimeJ wrote:

TL;DR: Just because it's legal doesn't mean you should do it, and just because you can do it doesn't make you a good sport.

It is how every Major League manager would expect his player would expect his players to act. It's how every major league player was trained to play from little league on. At this point, it's not even if it is legal. And it can't be dirty, since by definition that would require it to be something out of the ordinary.

I will say that I read an interesting take from LaRussa on the Posey play.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseb...

"I would potentially be in favor of changing the rule, but it's a change that should be looked at from both sides," the Cardinals' skipper began. "The analogy I kept thinking about is that home plate should be like first base. You step on the bag because the first baseman is not blocking the bag. If the first baseman is you way, what are you going to do?

"You see just as many catchers where you have collisions where the runner will seek to dislodge the ball, no matter where the catcher is positioned, as you do the catcher who is blocking the plate," La Russa added. "So, I would be in favor of discussing that rule where the catcher always gives the runner something to slide to. And you teach the baserunner - I don't want any of our baserunners running into the catcher. If the catcher is waiting for you, he's got all that equipment and he can hurt you. Then pretty soon, if the catcher is blocking you make an awkward slide, you hurt a wrist, a shoulder, hurt your knee.

"It's not worth the consequences of you getting busted up," the manager continued. "So, you take the part of the plate that the catcher gives you. If you beat the throw to the plate, you're safe. If the ball beats you you're out. That's what I mean. You can't go out there to collide with the catcher. The catcher blocks the plate - and a lot of guys do it, some more than others - then there should be some consequence. You give the guy the plate, or (he's) safe. If a guy goes out of the way (to hit the catcher) and busts the rule, then (he's) out. The only play you have a problem with is if it takes the catcher toward the third-base line. That becomes one of those judgment calls."

La Russa and his staff instruct catchers to leave a portion of the plate open for the run -- often that's the back tip of the plate. They also instruct their baserunners not to seek a collision with the catcher. La Russa said he's rather have his players slide as if to reach the plate between the catcher's legs than to go in with the shoulder or elbows up to dislodge the ball.

"If you've got a catcher," he said, "you want to keep him (healthy)."

I really respect La Russa and I like what he's saying. But let's finish this up and continue on to baseball.

What a wild weekend. I won't talk about 'my' team, but from watching the MLB network with recaps and games, it had the big bats saying, 'pitcher's rule...what?"

OMG, MLB Network is starting to really put in some time on the Mariner's. Mariner's in the Pacific Northwest 'wilds'. Pitching staff being giving positives by the panel...holy cow!:)

note:...and declare Pineda has the best first pitch strike IN the Majors(!). Not just rookies...MLB.
neato:)

Yeah, Seattle's coming on strong, their pitching is really good lately. I wonder if they can keep it together over the long haul of the season.

Also, Rangers, maybe win a game on the road every so often?

Adam Jones's over the shoulder catch yesterday was pretty damn good: http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/vid...

I love the way that kid plays, but I wish he had the durability to make it through a full season.

(Oh, and his home run was pretty nasty too.)

White Sox sweep the Red Sox! For some reason we always play well in Fenway.

garion333 wrote:

Adam Jones's over the shoulder catch yesterday was pretty damn good: http://baltimore.orioles.mlb.com/vid...

I love the way that kid plays, but I wish he had the durability to make it through a full season.

(Oh, and his home run was pretty nasty too.)

Yes, it was a great play! Another great prospect that has turned to gold that the Mariner's traded away. What's new?

POW!! Mariner's do it to Tampa Bay and Shields. 4 Home runs and 5 zip by the 3rd inning. Felix had this perplexed look on his face that was priceless, while in the dug-out. Like, '...say what! runs? I'm not sure what to think!!...' LOL.

Man, it turns out, this Albert Pujols is pretty good. He now has 4 Hrs in the last three games, including two walk-off dingers in extra innings.

Once Holliday comes back, this offense is going to go through the stratosphere. It's a really, really good now. Hopefully Berkman's wrist improves, too. But that might be wishful thinking. It just seems like the kind of nagging injury that is going to zap his power and overal production for the rest of the year.

When you combine that with Carpenter and Garcia being back in form, Cardinal fans can start thinking about October.

Carlos Marmol...please don't ever shake off your catcher again. Koyie calls for the fastball, Marmol shakes him off, Theriot hits the slider down the line to go into extra innings. Ouch.

mindset.threat wrote:

Carlos Marmol...please don't ever shake off your catcher again. Koyie calls for the fastball, Marmol shakes him off, Theriot hits the slider down the line to go into extra innings. Ouch.

Cubs baseball since 1908 in a nutshell.

mindset.threat wrote:

Carlos Marmol...please don't ever shake off your catcher again. Koyie calls for the fastball, Marmol shakes him off, Theriot hits the slider down the line to go into extra innings. Ouch.

And being that Theriot is a former Cub, and everyone and their mother knew he struggles with the fastball, he still shook off the sign and threw the slider. Nice work dip-sh*t. A ton of talent and an ounce of brains.

Speaking of which (the ounce of brains part), Carlos Zambrano wasn't too happy with the pitch selection either. Might be because it lost him the W Still, he makes a valid point, the Cubs really do belong in Triple A.

Nyjer Morgan discovers the secret to clutch hitting: not knowing what's going on.

And what's this? A trailer for Moneyball.

Was up at Fenway to see the Sox beat up on the Brewers, going back on Sunday with my son.

Rat Boy wrote:

And what's this? A trailer for Moneyball.

As much as I loved the book, like Brad Pitt as an actor, and thought the idea of a movie would be pretty cool, I kind of found that trailer a letdown.

Phillies got a dose of Mariner upsurge with rookies and key vets(and we are NOT talking about Chone Figgins) and one heck of a rotation. Hats off to Jason Vargas for the shut-out. (still need more runs!). Took the series from the hottest team in baseball.