Wisconsin State Senate Recalls

MattDaddy wrote:

The part that is disturbing is that the letter said taking a neutral stance was the same as saying no to them. So if business says they want to stay out of this fight because they don't want to take sides and alienate customers, the union will target them as an enemy. This kind of wording is intimidation and threatening. A lot of local businesses felt that way.

I'm trying to view this from the perspective of a business owner, and you're damn right I would find it frustrating. The "you're either with us, or you're against us" mentality can be very trying for people asked to make a stand, because they're essentially being forced to piss off ~half their customer base. Judging from the divisiveness I've read thus far, a pro union sign in a business would turn off probably about as many customers as having an anti union sign would piss off.

So, yeah, as a business owner, being asked to piss off half my customers either way would be annoying.

However...I don't think it's unfair for the unions to go this route. Any business that pays money to the chamber of commerce (and almost all of them do, at least if Wisconsin is anything like Michigan) is already implicitly supporting the anti union bill, aren't they? Doesn't it make sense for the Unions to want to use whatever legal power they have to encourage businesses to show support?

Again, I don't see threats of boycotts as intimidation. *Definitely* threatening...but this isn't the type of fight where Joey's Cafe can pretend to be Switzerland.

edit: sorry, Dimmer. I'll discontinue this derail and maybe make a new topic.

Agree to disagree then.

I find it curious that you seem to overlook these while managing to find the time to post dirty stories about conservative and/or Republican supporters.

Again, after your "catching the Klop" comment, you don't get to complain anymore.

Thank you King Malor for the decree. Are you done harassing me now?

I'm not in Wisconsin, but good look with your recalls! Unfortunately I live in Florida, where our new governor is so hated right now that we'd love to recall him...but sadly there's no laws to do so in Florida yet. It looks like one is going to pass, but it won't take effect until next year.

Thank you King Malor for the decree. Are you done harassing me now?

Your respect is showing again.

More information about the folks who crashed Democrat Fred Clark's meeting.

The Sauk County Republican Party Chair was one of the folks who forced his way into the meeting, and claims that the only instances of inappropriate behavior were instigated by the Democrats.

As a press conference announcing Clark's intention to run against Sen. Luther Olsen, R-Ripon, in an upcoming recall election began, McCumber and other conservatives entered the room - some of them forcefully. They held signs and shouted statements at Clark as he addressed his supporters.

But McCumber said he didn't hear any of that.

"I didn't hear what they said," McCumber said Friday. "I was in the back of the room."

I find it hard to take him at his word, given that he's a Republican activist, and forced his way into the meeting. It wasn't a town hall, or open to the public. This was folks forcing their way into a private meeting with the clear intent to disrupt.

Heh, my mom spent a couple of years growing up in Ripon. We visited the site where her house used to be when we stomped through Wisconsin a few years ago.

the only instances of inappropriate behavior were instigated by the Democrats.

The word 'instigating' is particularly important in this context. It means 'the Democrats gave us an excuse for our bad behavior; it's ALL THEIR FAULT we got disruptive and rowdy at a private meeting."

"Instigated" means he's guilty as f*ck.

Recall campaigns against democrat Senators Spencer Coggs and Mark Miller missed their deadline yesterday. The campaign against Miller was a local effort - the Utah-based recall effort against Senator Miller has until May 4th to file, and I expect will be looking at whether they can use some portion of the already-collected signatures in their effort.

The campaign to recall republican Senator Robert Cowles has said they'll be filing tomorrow, bringing the tally to 6 republicans and 3 democrats. Both of the remaining campaigns to recall republican senators (Mary Lazich and Glenn Grothman) have until Monday to file. As of yesterday, the Lazich campaign estimated it was 3,000 signatures short. No numbers from the Grothman recall, but those are both likely to come down to the wire, and may not have much of a buffer.

There's a longer writeup here for anyone interested, but it's looking like we'll have six or seven republicans and three or four democrats facing recall elections this spring.

Dan Baltes, the man from Utah who started the recall drives against the Wisconsin Democratic state senators with his American Recall Coalition, may not be who you may think he is.

His real name isn't Dan Baltes. It's Daniel Arthur Elliott. He took his third wife's last name after they married about 3 ½ years ago. He said he wanted to distance himself from an ex-girlfriend and an ex-wife.

"It was done to put myself off the radar and now I'm on the radar," he told the Deseret News.

And now that he's on the grid, so are the 10 years he spent in the Idaho prison system from the mid '80s to mid '90s for grand theft, forgery and writing bad checks. So is a domestic violence complaint and protective order issued against him in Colorado a decade ago.

And he appears not to have left the bad behavior in the past. Dan Baltes was accused last week of forging his brother's signature on a recall petition in Arizona, as well as facing claims by the Greater Phoenix Tea Party of running a scam where Dan Baltes promised to get Glenn Beck to speak in exchange for VIP tickets costing $350 per person, but never delivered (or refunded the money).

What business does a man from Utah have trying to petition for things in other states? Just one more problem in this farce we call a "Republic".

To their credit, the Wisconsin-based effort to recall Senator Mark Miller has elected not to combine forces with Mr. Baltes.

Jeff Horn of DeForest, the lead organizer of the local recall effort, said the local effort came up 268 signatures short of the 20,352 needed to trigger a recall election. The group's 60-day window to collect signatures ran out Tuesday.

The group could legally merge its signatures with a still-open effort to recall Miller by the American Recall Coalition, an offshoot of Americans Against Immigration Amnesty in Salt Lake City. That group has until Wednesday to meet the signature deadline.

But Horn said he's become increasingly suspicious of the motives of the Utah group's leader, Dan Baltes, and wants nothing to do with him or his organization.

Great to see folks putting principles above partisanship.

What business does a man from Utah have trying to petition for things in other states? Just one more problem in this farce we call a "Republic".

First Amendment, last I checked.

Robear wrote:
What business does a man from Utah have trying to petition for things in other states? Just one more problem in this farce we call a "Republic".

First Amendment, last I checked. :-)

True, but for someone who is apparently catering to a party that espouses smaller, state-focused government, he sure is widening his focus. Not that I personally find his actions a detriment to the idea of an American Republic, but it certainly speaks to the hypocrisy of some conservatives. If you want a smaller, state-run government, then worry about your own state and let the others do as they please. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

WipEout wrote:

True, but for someone who is apparently catering to a party that espouses smaller, state-focused government, he sure is widening his focus. Not that I personally find his actions a detriment to the idea of an American Republic, but it certainly speaks to the hypocrisy of some conservatives. If you want a smaller, state-run government, then worry about your own state and let the others do as they please. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

The double irony/hypocrisy being that some years ago, Utah passed a proposition to make citizen bill petitions. The fear mongered? That Californians were signing, and getting stricter environmental regulations before the legislature.

True, but for someone who is apparently catering to a party that espouses smaller, state-focused government, he sure is widening his focus. Not that I personally find his actions a detriment to the idea of an American Republic, but it certainly speaks to the hypocrisy of some conservatives. If you want a smaller, state-run government, then worry about your own state and let the others do as they please. That's kind of the point, isn't it?

I agree entirely, but we can't prevent him from speaking out just because he's a hypocritical idiot. FoxNews even has Bush instead of Obama on their front page today, but hey, free speech.

I don't have a problem with Mr. Baltes being involved with Wisconsin recall efforts, though it does undermine the falsehood that Wisconsinites were mad at the legislature generally (as does the fact that only three of the Democratic recall efforts hit enough signatures to trigger recall elections).

Like Robear says, it's a free speech issue.

That said, I will laugh in the face of the next GOP advocate to try the "out of state agitators" line about our protests on me.

Looks like we'll have consolidated recall elections in July. (The GAB filed for an extension to the statutory 30 days after receipt of signatures, citing the extraordinary circumstances of the recall effort).

General Accounting Board[/url]]Under state law, the G.A.B. normally has 31 days after a recall petition is offered for filing to determine its sufficiency. The G. A.B. asked for an extension due to the unprecedented number of petitions which have been offered for filing, and to make it possible to hold many of the recall elections on the same day. If there are legal challenges to the Board’s decisions on petition sufficiency, that could delay when recall elections are held. A ninth petition filed April 28, and any future petitions offered for filing, are not covered by the court order, and will be reviewed on their own schedule.

Since the recall efforts for Grothman and Lazich have fallen short, we should have six Republicans and three Democrats subject to recall elections.

Edit to add: while it's not a State Senate seat, it's noteworthy that in a special election yesterday Steve Doyle (Democrat) took back a seat which had been held by Republicans since 1994.

How will that potentially affect the balance in the state house?

The senate is current 19-14 in favor of the Republicans. Best case scenario for Democrats (winning all recall elections) would make it 20-13 in their favor. Best case for GOP would make it 22-11. The likely outcome is that it will stay the same or move 1 in either direction.

Since yesterday's assembly elections were mentioned, here are the stats:

GOP wins back 2 of the 3 seats opened up by members being appointed to other positions in the Walker administration.

Republicans held on to the 60th and 83rd districts in southeastern Wisconsin. Democrats grabbed the 94th District in western Wisconsin, a seat held by Republicans for 16 years.

Republican Duey Stroebel of the Town of Cedarburg overwhelmingly defeated the challenge of Democrat Rick Aaron in the 60th District by a 3-to-1 margin.

Dave Craig, an aide to U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and the Republican candidate for the 83rd District, beat Democratic challenger James Brownlow in the 83rd District.

Craig, of Big Bend, won 74% of the vote.

In the 94th District, Democrat Steve Doyle won over Republican challenger John Lautz.

Doyle, of Onalaska, gained 54% of the vote. He is the La Crosse County Board chairman and an attorney in private practice.

Lautz, of West Salem, is owner of Lautz Custom Builders Inc. He received 46%.

Professor caught using class time to get students to sign petition against Hopper:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/121219644.html

I heard a good portion of the audio. He tells students to sign anyways, even if they are not in the district (this is illegal according to discussions I have heard). He also makes a number of false statements about the budget repair bill including things like "it does not exempt Police and Firefighters" and "It makes joining a union illegal".

Well, there's also the Republicans who accepted dead people's signatures. I'm sure a few cases occur on both sides, but overall the process seems to have gone well.

MattDaddy wrote:

Professor caught using class time to get students to sign petition against Hopper:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/121219644.html

I heard a good portion of the audio. He tells students to sign anyways, even if they are not in the district (this is illegal according to discussions I have heard). He also makes a number of false statements about the budget repair bill including things like "it does not exempt Police and Firefighters" and "It makes joining a union illegal".

Ugh. What is the deal in Wisconsin? I think this is a pretty sterling example of some real dirt from the Unions.

They should file charges against that guy. It's just not acceptable to pull sh*t like that.

Regarding the professor - I totally agree that was inappropriate and an abuse of power. He should face disciplinary action, and if what he did broke the law, he should be prosecuted. I don't think that reflects on the broader effort to recall Hopper, let alone the other State Senators who will be facing recall, any more than shenanigans like dead people signing the Wirch recall petition.

Regarding the assembly elections, as a possible bellwether for the upcoming recall elections - I'm not sure I'd be reassured by those results, if I were a Republican. The guys Walker appointed from the Assembly were felt to be from "safe" districts. The Democrats couldn't even find someone to run against Gottlieb this past fall, for goodness' sake.

2010 Election Results (warning, PDF)

District 60
Mark Gottlieb (R): 21,896 [99.23%] (ran unopposed)

District 83
Scott Gunderson (R): 22,192 [78.69%]
Aaron Robertson (D): 6,003 [21.28%]

District 94
Mike Huebsch (R): 13,979 [58.85%]
Cheryl Hancock (D): 9,768 [41.12%]

The District 94 margin swung from +17% Republican to +8% Democrat.

I only dug back as far as the 2008 election cycle, but it's also roughly in line with last fall's results.

2008 Election Results (warning, PDF)

District 60
Mark Gottlieb (R): 23,282 [70.29%]
Perry Duman (D): 9,821 [29.65%]

District 83
Scott Gunderson (R): 24,834 [72.97%]
Aaron Robertson (D): 9,182 [26.98%]

District 94
Mike Huebsch (R): 17,719 [54.03%]
Cheryl Hancock (D): 15,054 [45.90%]

Malor wrote:

They should file charges against that guy. It's just not acceptable to pull sh*t like that.

Maybe I'm confused about the nature of this, but what charges would one file against him? He mis-used his position and the time of his students, and should be disciplined or fired perhaps, but he wasn't actually gathering or submitting signatures, was he? I fail to see how this is different from the steaming pile of rhetoric and lies we hear during political rallies, other than that it was done on the college's time.

Kraint wrote:
Malor wrote:

They should file charges against that guy. It's just not acceptable to pull sh*t like that.

Maybe I'm confused about the nature of this, but what charges would one file against him? He mis-used his position and the time of his students, and should be disciplined or fired perhaps, but he wasn't actually gathering or submitting signatures, was he? I fail to see how this is different from the steaming pile of rhetoric and lies we hear during political rallies, other than that it was done on the college's time.

After actually following the link, I think you're right. I could just be ignorant about the law (likely), but it seems more likely any legal ramifications would fall on the university itself as the professor was acting in his official capacity as a representative. The university can discipline him.

The way it works in my head, if my manager urges to get me to sign something political he's breaking company policy. If he's discovered by someone outside the company, it's the company itself that's in trouble, not the manager. At least from a legal standpoint.

Yeah, so legal charges wouldn't make any sense... since I really doubt the university wanted him to be an idiot. But he should be disciplined. And he should feel like an idiot for doing more damage than good.

Wisconsin Democrats believe they'll be able to challenge enough signatures to derail all three recall efforts against their state senators.

Wisconsin State Journal[/url]]Party officials said they would file a challenge Thursday afternoon with the Government Accountability Board seeking to throw out those and thousands of additional signatures because of alleged “widespread and systemic election fraud” in the petition drives against Senators Dave Hansen of Green Bay, Jim Holperin of Conover and Robert Wirch of Pleasant Prairie.

“The overwhelming evidence clearly shows a pervasive pattern of election fraud committed by the shady out-of-state organization hired by Republicans to collect recall petitions,” Senate Majority Leader Mark Miller, D-Monona, said in a statement. “Thousands of Wisconsin citizens fell victim to lies and misinformation spread by the circulators, and the papers submitted by this operation contain a river of omissions and wrong information.”

The Democratic Party said it has collected sworn affidavits from voters who claim to have been misled or who deny signing petitions containing their names. In a statement, the party said it had surveyed petition signers and found numerous instances in which people allege they were misled about the intent of the petition drive, including some who thought they were signing to recall GOP Gov. Scott Walker. Petitions to recall the governor cannot legally be circulated until November.

Calls to Kennedy Enterprises in Colorado Springs, Colo., which was hired by the Republicans to circulate petitions against the three senators, were answered Thursday by a recorded message saying the number had been temporarily disconnected. An email to company president Dan Kennedy wasn’t immediately returned.

I'd be surprised if these challenges held, since my understanding is that all the submissions by both sides had an ample buffer. If the charges that signatures were obtained fraudulently turn out to be true (especially if they're widespread enough to undo a recall effort), I hope the people responsible are prosecuted.

[Edit to update quote, since the article was amended after I posted my first excerpt]