New Nintendo console to be announced at E3.

LarryC wrote:

They've even gone so far as to whore their first party IPs to third parties willing to work with them,

Yeah Metroid Other M got mixed reviews at best. It's metacritic score is the lowest of any of the more recent games (Prime and forward), yes even lower than Prime Hunters and Prime Pinball.

It's at the bottom of my Metroid game rankings. I'd rather play Metroid 2 on my GBA with no map than play it again.

Next time they try that they should be more careful about who they let touch their IPs. Not sure what they expected from the DOA guys... certainly not the strong female lead that Samus has been for years, instead they got some silly subservient girl who looked pretty. Hell I'm surprised there wasn't an unlockable Zero Suit playthrough with jiggle physics and everything.

Stele:

That's my point. They're giving away the barn and yet no one comes. You can't blame them for third party behavior at that point.

The main reason third parties don't make Wii games is that almost nobody makes console exclusives anymore. It's not economical to make a game and only release it on one system. Because of the disparity between the Wii and the other consoles, both in power and control scheme, Wii games by their nature have to be exclusives. Even when cross-platform games are released on the Wii, the Wii version is usually significantly different. I'd bet that the Wii actually gets more exclusive third party titles than any other system, they just don't get all those cross-platform titles to pad out their library.

0kelvin wrote:

The main reason third parties don't make Wii games is that almost nobody makes console exclusives anymore. It's not economical to make a game and only release it on one system. Because of the disparity between the Wii and the other consoles, both in power and control scheme, Wii games by their nature have to be exclusives. Even when cross-platform games are released on the Wii, the Wii version is usually significantly different. I'd bet that the Wii actually gets more exclusive third party titles than any other system, they just don't get all those cross-platform titles to pad out their library.

Continuing from that, I'd be interested to see where the cost is in making a game for a typical 360/PS3 game, and a Wii game. It would seem that 'better' graphics on the 360/PS3 would cost more to make, and the Wii less to make, which would affect how easily a project can get a return, but that ignores the other areas of production which may have a different weighting between 360/PS3/Wii.

That said you do have big companies like Activision who aren't interested in small projects, but fewer large projects that they can boost up to massive profits, and I'm sure other studios often think along similar lines.

Okelvin:

The point of a cross-platform game is to generate more sales. By having ridiculously large sales across multiple titles in multiple genres, Nintendo proves that titles on their console can generate the same kind of sales cross-platform titles can have over multiple platforms, for smaller costs in texture work and middleware.

Thus, that reason is not reasonable.

I wouldn't be too convinced that the cost savings for lower resolution texture maps (or the lack of normal/displacement/specular/etc) are that great, seeing as they need to be made in the first place. The texture artist is going through most of the same process for what they're mapping, but the end output is just lower resolution. It's also just one aspect of making the game, the game still has to be designed, levels made, sound recorded, QA, etc. Texture resolution is one difference between the consoles, but I don't think it alone will cause significant cost savings

Scratched wrote:

I wouldn't be too convinced that the cost savings for lower resolution texture maps (or the lack of normal/displacement/specular/etc) are that great, seeing as they need to be made in the first place. The texture artist is going through most of the same process for what they're mapping, but the end output is just lower resolution. It's also just one aspect of making the game, the game still has to be designed, levels made, sound recorded, QA, etc. Texture resolution is one difference between the consoles, but I don't think it alone will cause significant cost savings

Texture work for a 1280x720 image requires literally twice as many pixels as that of a 640x360 image. Essentially, this means that your artist is making a world that's twice as large, plus all the added visual effects. Cost savings are easy to estimate. Find the percentage of texture artists and effects artists working on a normal game and slash that workforce in half. Multiply by overall development time. It won't be an exact estimate, of course, but it's a sound guesstimate. There are market estimates from more authoritative sources. Some say that a Wii game takes anywhere from 25% to 50% of the cost of a normal game, but that might just be those third parties low-balling the Wii games.

Really? I'd like to see sources. I'm googling right now, but trying to find 'normal' budgets, i.e. not big blockbusters, and proper sources rather than "I heard..." is hard. So far the "I heard..." for Zelda TP is $10-20m, so not too far from what I'd expect most 360/PS3 budgets. For comparison, Gears of War 1 cost $10m according to Epic.

edit: in fact, I've seen that 25-50% figure as well: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_...
Figures I've seen around, mostly from Ubisoft:
Cost of a PS3/360 game - $18-28m, Big title - at least $40m+
Cost of PS2/Xbox game - $3-10m
Cost of Wii game $7.8-$9m
DS game - $785,000-$1.57m

Also this:

In 2005 Japanese development reports from CESA (Computer Entertainment Supplier's Association) compiled the average cost of developing a videogame on respective systems.[18] The breakdown was as follows:

Platform - average development cost / number of titles used for calculation

Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million) / 13 titles
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634) / 194 titles
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 11 titles
PlayStation Portable - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 6 titles
PlayStation - 80 million yen ($731,429) / 1 title
Game Boy Advance - 53 million yen ($484,571) / 47 titles
DS - 37 million yen ($338,286) / 3 titles
Dreamcast - 25 million yen ($228,571) / 2 titles

In short, the current top hardware is F***ing expensive to develop for, and whatever the Wii2 is might be joining the club. No wonder there's such movement to other platforms.

Last gen I had a Gamecube and Xbox. This gen I have a 360 and a Wii.

Microsoft owns me right now becasue of Xbox Live and it is the best console for sports games. I have an "inability" to enjoy the waggle controls of the Wii, so it gets very little love from me. But my daughter is a huge Nintendo fan. so we have both becasue it suits each of our needs.

If Nintendo basically releases a beefed console with a 360-like controller in addition to the Wiimote, and then creates a dynamic inline system, I could happily go back to my preference of being one console home. I don't need any of the Microsoft exclusives. But if EA and 2K could release great versions of their sports games on the Nintendo console, I could probably be completely happy there.

If the controller is gimmicky, the online service rudimentary, and publishers continue to release gimped versions of their sports games (Tiger woods kind of excluded), then it will be two consoles for the next gen again for me. Nintendo will have great versions of Mario, Zelda, as well as the Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing titles. Microsoft will have great online services and be a great platform for sports and action games, as well as RPGs and Kinect stuff.

I'm not too worried about what Nintendo releases. It will be fun. I'm just curious if I can go back to a one console home. It would have to pump out great Netflix, ESPN, friends lists, and much more convenient downloadable games and content system. But either way, there is no doubt we will have whatever Nintendo puts out. I'm hoping for some standard controllers, but even lacking that will not be a deal breaker.

But I also don't think there is a need for newer consoles yet. But then, consumer need was never the impetus for a new gen. It's just a part of the chess game that the hardware companies play to maximize market share. So I will ride along with whatever they do.

LarryC wrote:

hbi2k:

I don't think it's right to put the onus on Nintendo about courting third parties. (etc.)

I don't care whose fault it is that Nintendo's systems generally lack good third party support compared to the competition. That's not my problem. Blame Nintendo, blame third parties, blame the phases of the moon, I'm still going to assume that any Nintendo system is going to lack that support and make my console-buying decisions accordingly until/unless I have sufficient reason to believe that things are going to be different this time. (And no, Reggie making promises at his E3 speech doesn't count as "sufficient reason.")

Hey, maybe things WILL be different this time. No one would be more overjoyed than me, because I'd love to be able to play my Bioshocks and Portals alongside my Mario Galaxies on the same system. But if that's the case, I'm more than willing to wait until a year or two after the system launches when I can see for myself that things are different rather than taking it on faith.

hbi2k:

Don't mistake my intent. I don't believe Reggie, either. Until I see substantial third party support for a Nintendo console, I think it's safer to assume that the support will be little to nonexistent.

Jayhawker wrote:

If Nintendo basically releases a beefed console with a 360-like controller in addition to the Wiimote, and then creates a dynamic inline system, I could happily go back to my preference of being one console home. I don't need any of the Microsoft exclusives. But if EA and 2K could release great versions of their sports games on the Nintendo console, I could probably be completely happy there.

Ironically I have tremendous nostalgia for Nintendo for sporting games. Everything from Tecmo Super Bowl to Blades of Steel to Double Dribble to Madden to NBA Live and NHL 94. Unfortunately they gave up on that market some time ago.

DSGamer wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

If Nintendo basically releases a beefed console with a 360-like controller in addition to the Wiimote, and then creates a dynamic inline system, I could happily go back to my preference of being one console home. I don't need any of the Microsoft exclusives. But if EA and 2K could release great versions of their sports games on the Nintendo console, I could probably be completely happy there.

Ironically I have tremendous nostalgia for Nintendo for sporting games. Everything from Tecmo Super Bowl to Blades of Steel to Double Dribble to Madden to NBA Live and NHL 94. Unfortunately they gave up on that market some time ago.

I was single console during the days of the SNES. But I gave that up for the PC when that became the place for sports games and PC games were leaps and bounds better than the consoles.

I was single console again for the tail end of the Dreamcast, as Sierra blew up their sports games and Sega created 2K sports. After the Dreamcast I bought a Gamecube precisely becasue NF2Ksomething was on it. I had no plans to get an Xbox until my brother started working for Microsoft. PGR2 racing is what lured me in, but it was Xbox Live and Halo and NHL 2Ksomething that hooked me.

So I have no doubt that Nintendo can be a good sports console. But Microsoft blew way past them last gen, and the Wii was a terrible place for sports games of any depth (except maybe Tiger Woods). But EA and 2K are still tight with Nintendo, so if they come up with an HD console with a quality online system, it could be on again.

But right now the 360 is our DVD player, Netflix streamer, access to ESPN in our non-cable household, music streamer (although Pandora would be nicer than LastFM), and primary game console. That is a heck of a lot for Nintendo to accomplish in one gen. But I am almost certain that we will buy whatever Nintendo puts out regardless. So if they pull it off, great! If not, oh well.

Jayhawker:

I've heard that the absolute best soccer game out today is actually the PES series on Wii because of the cursor-based control system. More strategy, more control, more depth. I've heard similar things about the NHL Wii games.

LarryC wrote:

Jayhawker:

I've heard that the absolute best soccer game out today is actually the PES series on Wii because of the cursor-based control system. More strategy, more control, more depth. I've heard similar things about the NHL Wii games.

You pretty much heard wrong. None of them have reviewed all that well. No one at forums devoted to sports games like Operation Sports are playing them. They might be fun games, but they are not games that sports gaming fans would even consider acceptable.

Tiger Woods is definitely a good game for the Wii. Another one I have not played, but have heard nothing but great things about is MLB Power Pros. But the best sports game in recent years are not only absent from the Wii, they would not even be possible. It can't even get a decent boxing game, and EA would jump on that in a millisecond.

Believe me, I flock to where the good sports games are. I've been playing some form since the mid 70's.

"For those who haven't played PES on Wii before, it's essentially as close to you'll ever come to managing every aspect of a soccer game from a bird's eye view. You have direct control over a ton of movements on the field and can flawlessly control multiple players at one time, providing that the troublesome AI cooperates. By using several grabs, drags and grouping techniques with the remote, it's easy to send one player on a run while passing to another streaking player and making four guys tighten their defense on the opposite side of the ball. The gameplay has great flow, despite the fact that it lacks much of the technological improvements that helped both FIFA and PES on other systems."

That's from the IGN review of PES 2010.

"Be warned, Pro Evolution Soccer 2009 on the Wii is not for those incapable of multi-tasking. Unlike almost every other soccer game on the market, Pro Evo puts you in control of much more than a single bloke on the pitch. While there's no doubt that Pro Evo 2009 on Wii has one of the steepest learning curves on the console, that doesn't stop it from delivering one of the most enjoyable soccer experiences around. "

From the 2009 version, IGN review

" In short, all the things that have traditionally been forced to the periphery by the need to focus on the man with the ball. It's possible to play proper team football in PES and FIFA on PS3 and 360, but PES Wii allowed players to control more of the team at once without having to rely on AI team-mates second-guessing your intentions at exactly the right moment."

"Overall, viewed in a broader context than simply its Wii competition, Pro Evolution Soccer 2009 is still second best to the excellent FIFA 09 on PS3 and 360, but while I certainly wouldn't make it my only football game, it's still sufficiently different that it complements EA's game and transcends the many competitive disadvantages PES 2009 faces on those consoles. Given the learning curve, some will continue to side with EA and Activision's assertion that Wii games shouldn't be made this way, but the difference here is that Konami's wilfully obscure controls unlock things about the sport that a traditional control system cannot, and for that reason PES 2009 for Wii comes strongly recommended."

From Eurogamer, 2009 PES Wii

Gameplay video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvzGg...

Gamespot Summary of 2011 version:

The Good

Complex but rewarding remote and nunchuk controls Realistic and challenging AI.

The Bad

Terrible stadium and crowd graphics Very few new features in game modes Steep learning curve for casual football fans.

"With PES 2011 on the Wii, the Wiimote and Nunchuk controls have been taken to heights never seen in simulation sports. Unlike so many other half-hearted attempts to shoehorn football, hockey, or basketball into the system’s controls, PES feels as if it were built with them in mind. You control each of the player moves – dribbling, passing, shooting, defending, corner kicking, you name it – by pointing, clicking, and flicking. It may not sound appealing, but it sure is interesting. The controls are deep too; among many other options, you can either pull your man around the pitch or point to a spot for him to run or pass the ball. With some deft maneuvering, you can execute sweet give-and-go moves, precise free kicks, and stack your defenders to attack their opponents. Scoring a goal is a little slice of heaven.

The only potential drawback to this revolution is the learning curve. While you’ll be passing and shooting in minutes, learning the full suite of moves is a time-intensive exercise that requires patience and dedication. If the underlying soccer engine weren’t so wonderfully fine-tuned, this learning experience might be a little easier. However, while you’re figuring out how to play, you’ll get your ass kicked by brilliant computer AI and realistic gameplay. Not everyone will take kindly to that, and it’s hard not to wonder if there are many Wii owners out there who are willing to take such a beating – but PES does allow you to use a classic controller for standard controls if you just can’t take it anymore."

From Gamesradar

Oh, snap. All the deets have been leaked. ALL the deets. This makes the leaks right before the PSP Go was announced look like nothing. Amazing.

hbi2k wrote:

Oh, snap. All the deets have been leaked. ALL the deets. This makes the leaks right before the PSP Go was announced look like nothing. Amazing.

That's excellent. I like the Penny Arcade take on the predictions too.

Read somewhere that the name for the new console is going to be Stream. First Wii, now Stream. Hmm. And supposedly it could retail between $350 and $400. Yikes.

Stream of Wii? You heard it here first, and believe me if it is the real name it will be heard everywhere.

Scratched wrote:

Stream of Wii? You heard it here first, and believe me if it is the real name it will be heard everywhere.

Sounds like a winner to me. Other possible names: Wiiner, Wii Wii.

Oh, Nintendo...

Please let this be true.

If that is the codename I think it points to the speculation I had on this console being an iPad like device. The Nintendo Stream could be used as a regular console but you would also be able to stream the games to your controller (with a 6" touch screen) as sort of an iPad and it would be quite powerful as all the guts would be in the console. It seems crazy enough that Nintendo might do it.

Also, people in Japan don't really play consoles that much anymore for a lot of reasons, one of them being the amount of space where they live. This could possibly reinvigorate the console market in Japan as you wouldn't necessarily need a large living room to play crazy high end games.

Monday can't get here fast enough, the amount of speculation is making me go insane. I need to know what this thing is!

BNice wrote:

Monday can't get here fast enough, the amount of speculation is making me go insane. I need to know what this thing is!

Is there supposed to be an announcement Monday that I missed?

BNice wrote:

If that is the codename I think it points to the speculation I had on this console being an iPad like device. The Nintendo Stream could be used as a regular console but you would also be able to stream the games to your controller (with a 6" touch screen) as sort of an iPad and it would be quite powerful as all the guts would be in the console. It seems crazy enough that Nintendo might do it.

Also, people in Japan don't really play consoles that much anymore for a lot of reasons, one of them being the amount of space where they live. This could possibly reinvigorate the console market in Japan as you wouldn't necessarily need a large living room to play crazy high end games.

Monday can't get here fast enough, the amount of speculation is making me go insane. I need to know what this thing is!

The funny thing is that this would make sense as a trend. The NGP has been talked about a lot as a console device. A game that possibly could play versions of console games not that much different. That would be a really cool trend, I think.

Blind_Evil wrote:
BNice wrote:

Monday can't get here fast enough, the amount of speculation is making me go insane. I need to know what this thing is!

Is there supposed to be an announcement Monday that I missed?

This. bwah?
EDIT: Read GoNintendo's end of day thoughts and it mentions that hopefully we'll get something from the investors meeting next week. Is that it?

mrtomaytohead wrote:

EDIT: Read GoNintendo's end of day thoughts and it mentions that hopefully we'll get something from the investors meeting next week. Is that it?

That's it.

DSGamer wrote:
BNice wrote:

If that is the codename I think it points to the speculation I had on this console being an iPad like device. The Nintendo Stream could be used as a regular console but you would also be able to stream the games to your controller (with a 6" touch screen) as sort of an iPad and it would be quite powerful as all the guts would be in the console. It seems crazy enough that Nintendo might do it.

Also, people in Japan don't really play consoles that much anymore for a lot of reasons, one of them being the amount of space where they live. This could possibly reinvigorate the console market in Japan as you wouldn't necessarily need a large living room to play crazy high end games.

Monday can't get here fast enough, the amount of speculation is making me go insane. I need to know what this thing is!

The funny thing is that this would make sense as a trend. The NGP has been talked about a lot as a console device. A game that possibly could play versions of console games not that much different. That would be a really expensive trend, I think.

FTFY.
I can't rule out an interface on the controller (i myself predicted one) but it will not be of the same scale and power as a handheld console... controllers are expensive enough by themselves at the moment... i can't imagine that any console like this would be any more successful than the 4-way adapters for the GBA/Gamecube thing, the videogame memory cards for the Dreamcast or the PSP link to the PS3.

The expense thing is the part I can't wrap my head around totally. They may be moving from Wii games that are cheap to make to 'big console' games with big detailed graphics that are expensive. The counterpoint would be that Wii doesn't really attract too many developers making awesome games, and has a reputation for shovelware, and moving up to the 'big console' level lets them benefit from cross platform development, although the risk would be of homogenisation and being just another console.