Egyptian riots

Rat Boy wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

*edit*

Also Also, Anderson Cooper been jumped by pro-Mubarak dudes.

stevebruskCNN: Anderson said he was punched 10 times in the head as pro-Mubarak mob surrounded him and his crew trying to cover demonstration about 1 hour ago via Mobile Web Retweeted by 100+ people

An American reporter gets the crap kicked out of him by Mubarak's plain clothed police forces and yet American media outlets are still referring to them as "pro-Mubarak protestors?"

Yeah. At least he could say "they appear to be police forces in plain clothes".

I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptian government turns out to be NOT the only one paymaster for the thugs.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptian government turns out to be NOT the only one paymaster for the thugs.

I agree, actually. This occurred to me this morning that there are other parties (the US, perhaps) that have a vested interest in the revolution failing because of chaos.

Thankfully, Western powers don't meddle in the affairs of Middle Eastern nations, so we don't have to worry about this.

My Co-worker wrote:

Heh. Somethingawful has a thread in GBS on the Egypt situation. They're all basically livewatching AJ and saying things like "Oh, sh*t, Pro-Mubarak dude Molotoved himself!"

Me wrote:

That sounds like a game of L4D2.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

If I remember it right, during the Cheju Island uprising, the Korean government deployed flamethrowers against the protesting students.

(but still kept its good standing with the democracy-loving US).

They were just saving those students the effort of immolating themselves.

Oh, Onion. Don't ever change.

link

U.S. Negotiating Mubarak's Severance Package

February 2, 2011 | ISSUE 47•05

CAIRO—In an effort to provide monetary compensation to the Egyptian president for three decades of faithful service, U.S. officials opened negotiations with Hosni Mubarak Tuesday, offering him a severance package worth $20 million upon termination of his employment. "We are all thankful for the hard work and long hours President Mubarak put in over the years, and hope our discussions continue smoothly," said senior U.S. negotiator Frank Wisner, who admitted that the final settlement would have to be considerable, as Mubarak's contract with the U.S. was being terminated 15 years early. "Unfortunately, he no longer reflects our needs in the region at this time, but we would like to end our relationship on the right foot. He deserves to retire in comfort." Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has also reportedly offered to write Mubarak a letter of recommendation in case he wishes to apply for any dictatorship jobs with U.S. allies in the future.

You know what makes me positive about the events in Egypt? Stuff like this.

It's a people determined, and united. I hope the rest of the world learns the lesson they are teaching.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

You know what makes me positive about the events in Egypt? Stuff like this.

It's a people determined, and united. I hope the rest of the world learns the lesson they are teaching.

When I was in Korea in 1986, I witnessed a street demonstration that very much challenged my understanding of our media relationship with our allies.

It was in front of the gates of Yonsei University, which served, in many ways, as the epicenter of the pro-democracy movement. Students were chanting in almost military precision. The riot police showed up in their darth vader suits and shields. They poured out of their armored buses and formed a Roman style shield wall. Almost immediately, they popped teargas and advanced into the crowd.

The students moved away to avoid contact and each time reformed behind the policemen. Each time they did, the police would form a wedge and confront again. Occasionally, a student would be too slow getting away and get beaten to a bloody pulp. This went on for about 45 minutes. The air was yellow with a persistent tear gas powder. It got on everything and was everywhere.

It was the height of summer and the temperature was approaching 100 degrees with about 80% humidity. It was also in the middle of Seoul's legendary afternoon rush hour. After about another 45 minutes of this, the riot policemen were spent. They were out of tear gas and water. The heat was getting to them. After a couple of them passed out from heat exhaustion, they stopped confronting and formed a square.

Amazingly, the students got a student leader to go talk to the police regarding terms of surrender. The police grabbed him, beat him to a bloody pulp and put him in cuffs. At this, the students started throwing rocks. After about 15 minutes though, they sent another negotiator which the police beat again to a bloody pulp and put in cuffs. Again the students responded with rocks. After another 15 minutes, the students sent one more negotiator. This time the police surrendered.

I was convinced that there was going to be a massacre. I certainly don't think there would have been any sort of control of the mob in the United States for instance. What happened then was truly remarkable. The students watched as the police piled their riot gear into a pile and got onto their bus. The students even gave them cans of soda and cups of water. I even witnessed students and policemen giving one another the repeated Korean bow.

The next day, I read in the English language press that a group of violent, anti-government, communist inspired demonstrators confronted policemen at Yonsei University.

epilogue: Nearly 20 years later, I met a girl at Starbucks in Columbia, Maryland. She was a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who thought that we would get along. It turns out she was at that demonstration. She was in her freshman year at the school of nursing. Nearly 20 years to the day, I married that girl.

And that, kids, is how I met your mother.

Seriously cool story Paleo.

That's one thing about being alive today though, it's hard to spin events. Without Twitter and Al Jazeera what would the news look like to people outside of Egypt? I'm willing to bet it would be something along the lines of 'Violent Muslim protesters are attempting to oust our democratically elected ally Hosni Mubarak in order to install an anti-American Islamist government.'

While you need to be careful of what you believe on Twitter, and bear in mind that Al Jazeera does have an agenda* considering the sources carefully means that it's much harder to muddy the waters.

*AL Jazeera tends to be anti-developed world and pro-developing world station. It's on the side of the 'Little Guys' but is at least open about its biases.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Seriously cool story Paleo.

That's one thing about being alive today though, it's hard to spin events. Without Twitter and Al Jazeera what would the news look like to people outside of Egypt? I'm willing to bet it would be something along the lines of 'Violent Muslim protesters are attempting to oust our democratically elected ally Hosni Mubarak in order to install an anti-American Islamist government.'

While you need to be careful of what you believe on Twitter, and bear in mind that Al Jazeera does have an agenda* considering the sources carefully means that it's much harder to muddy the waters.

*AL Jazeera tends to be anti-developed world and pro-developing world station. It's on the side of the 'Little Guys' but is at least open about its biases.

Agreed.

I think that the existence of competing media make it difficult for ours to maintain what some would call a "colonial bias". There was a time after that demonstration that I saw everything in the American press through a deeply skeptical lens.

I've always been deeply skeptical of the media, but that comes from growing up in a country with state controlled television and radio.

*edit*

Army has bailed.

4:06pm The tanks that were guarding the over-pass are now gone and most of the soldiers have pulled back from the battle lines. Tense stand off now between pro-democracy protesters and the Mubarak loyalists.

3:59pm Pro-democracy protesters have pushed forward their barricades about 20 metres and have taken over the 6th of October bridge and are moving towards Ramsey street.

3:45pm The Arabic Network for Human Rights Information, said that security forces went into two human rights groups, Hisham Mubarak and the Egyptian center for social and economic rights, detained their employees and arrested two employees at the one organisation.

Paleo, that's a "cool story, bro" that actually turned out to be a cool story.

OT, here are some very interesting pictures of the demonstrations, riots, or whatever you want to call them.

what's the story on these pro mubarak guys? I thought they were just prisoners that Mubarak released, armed, and set after the riots. Are they legitimate?

Minarchist wrote:

Paleo, that's a "cool story, bro" that actually turned out to be a cool story.

Yeah, I rolled a save against saying that. It was a near thing.

*edit*

And those pics are freaking amazing.

Seth wrote:

what's the story on these pro mubarak guys? I thought they were just prisoners that Mubarak released, armed, and set after the riots. Are they legitimate?

What I saw floating around yesterday was that there were people being paid the equivalent of $8.50 and a pack of cigarettes to counter protest.

Also, in any dictatorship there are people who support the dictator for whatever reason, so I'm sure some are legit.

There were reports that some of the looters were criminals that the regime released and armed, but I haven't seen anything definitive there.

MrDevil909 pointed out that the protesters managed to capture some of the pro-mubarak guys, and found they were carrying police IDs.
IMAGE(http://i.imgur.com/7bu89.jpg)

Which is pretty damning.

Oh yeah, and the police.

I'm sure it's a mix of all the stories though.

Yeah, no doubt they're getting paid on the pro-Mubarak side. You don't have supporters in a regime like that without greasing some palms.

Did anyone else notice that there's a pretty good mix of women in with the men on the Anti-M side, and a good age spread, whereas the pro-M side is pretty much all young males?

My take on this?

Deja-f*cking-vu

At least Egyptians have forced the guy to *decline* running again this year. I don't know if I would take the bait thou.

Minarchist wrote:

Yeah, no doubt they're getting paid on the pro-Mubarak side. You don't have supporters in a regime like that without greasing some palms.

Did anyone else notice that there's a pretty good mix of women in with the men on the Anti-M side, and a good age spread, whereas the pro-M side is pretty much all young males?

Re: the police still fomenting violence - If you've been complicit in the pro-torture regime, you pretty much don't want an anti-torture group coming in and looking up every little Himmler's address.

Tanglebones wrote:

Re: the police still fomenting violence - If you've been complicit in the pro-torture regime, you pretty much don't want an anti-torture group coming in and looking up every little Himmler's address.

Yeah, I was just reading postulation on that. It's not necessarily that Mubarak has told the police to disguise themselves and foment violence; it's quite likely they're doing it of their own accord. They most certainly have a dog in that hunt.

In other news, it's starting up in Yemen now. Any takers on who's next? My money's on Jordan.

Minarchist wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:

Re: the police still fomenting violence - If you've been complicit in the pro-torture regime, you pretty much don't want an anti-torture group coming in and looking up every little Himmler's address.

Yeah, I was just reading postulation on that. It's not necessarily that Mubarak has told the police to disguise themselves and foment violence; it's quite likely they're doing it of their own accord. They most certainly have a dog in that hunt.

In other news, it's starting up in Yemen now. Any takers on who's next? My money's on Jordan.

That's probably the safe bet, but I'm going to say Syria gets it next.

I gotta say, Al Jazeera has been doing some seriously good journalism on this whole event. NPR and BBC aren't even in the same ballpark, and the rest of the Western media seems completely disconnected from any reality whatsoever.

The US government may hate AJ simply because they tell the truth.

Malor wrote:

I gotta say, Al Jazeera has been doing some seriously good journalism on this whole event. NPR and BBC aren't even in the same ballpark, and the rest of the Western media seems completely disconnected from any reality whatsoever.

Though props to Christiane Amanpour and Anderson Cooper for at least being over there.

Tanglebones wrote:
Malor wrote:

I gotta say, Al Jazeera has been doing some seriously good journalism on this whole event. NPR and BBC aren't even in the same ballpark, and the rest of the Western media seems completely disconnected from any reality whatsoever.

Though props to Christiane Amanpour and Anderson Cooper for at least being over there.

Brian Williams is there too. I noticed that while flipping around last night.

Not that he'd go anywhere near any violence, but ...

Malor wrote:

I gotta say, Al Jazeera has been doing some seriously good journalism on this whole event. NPR and BBC aren't even in the same ballpark, and the rest of the Western media seems completely disconnected from any reality whatsoever.

The US government may hate AJ simply because they tell the truth.

Yeah. It's been a bit eye-opening. The failure of Western media forced me to download the Al Jazeera app on my iPhone. And now that may be where I watch news for some time. Sorry, Western Media. Try better next time.

EDIT: They were reporting this morning that Iraqis staying in Egypt were leaving last night for Bagdad. That was the first bit of news in all this where I kind of laughed. You know your country is dangerous when people flee for the warm, safe embrace of Bagdad.

Here's a writeup about the protests by one of my friend's friends in Cairo. She lost contact with another friend, but this one has managed to not get nabbed.

Edit: Screw it, I'm posting the whole thing:

I don’t know how to start writing this. I have been battling fatigue for not sleeping properly for the past 10 days, moving from one’s friend house to another friend’s house, almost never spending a night in my home, facing a very well funded and well organized ruthless regime that views me as nothing but an annoying bug that its time to squash will come. The situation here is bleak to say the least.

It didn’t start out that way. On Tuesday Jan 25 it all started peacefully, and against all odds, we succeeded to gather hundreds of thousands and get them into Tahrir Square, despite being attacked by Anti-Riot Police who are using sticks, tear gas and rubber bullets against us. We managed to break all of their barricades and situated ourselves in Tahrir. The government responded by shutting down all cell communication in Tahrir square, a move which purpose was understood later when after midnight they went in with all of their might and attacked the protesters and evacuated the Square. The next day we were back at it again, and the day after. Then came Friday and we braved their communication blackout, their thugs, their tear gas and their bullets and we retook the square. We have been fighting to keep it ever since.

That night the government announced a military curfew, which kept getting shorter by the day, until it became from 8 am to 3 pm. People couldn’t go to work, gas was running out quickly and so were essential goods and money, since the banks were not allowed to operate and people were not able to collect their salary. The internet continued to be blocked, which affected all businesses in Egypt and will cause an economic meltdown the moment they allow the banks to operate again. We were being collectively punished for daring to say that we deserve democracy and rights, and to keep it up, they withdrew the police, and then sent them out dressed as civilians to terrorize our neighborhoods. I was shot at twice that day, one of which with a semi-automatic by a dude in a car that we the people took joy in pummeling. The government announced that all prisons were breached, and that the prisoners somehow managed to get weapons and do nothing but randomly attack people. One day we had organized thugs in uniforms firing at us and the next day they disappeared and were replaced by organized thugs without uniforms firing at us. Somehow the people never made the connection.

Despite it all, we braved it. We believed we are doing what’s right and were encouraged by all those around us who couldn’t believe what was happening to their country. What he did galvanized the people, and on Tuesday, despite shutting down all major roads leading into Cairo, we managed to get over 2 million protesters in Cairo alone and 3 million all over Egypt to come out and demand Mubarak’s departure. Those are people who stood up to the regime’s ruthlessness and anger and declared that they were free, and were refusing to live in the Mubarak dictatorship for one more day. That night, he showed up on TV, and gave a very emotional speech about how he intends to step down at the end of his term and how he wants to die in Egypt, the country he loved and served. To me, and to everyone else at the protests this wasn’t nearly enough, for we wanted him gone now. Others started asking that we give him a chance, and that change takes time and other such poppycock. Hell, some people and family members cried when they saw his speech. People felt sorry for him for failing to be our dictator for the rest of his life and inheriting us to his Son. It was an amalgam of Stockholm syndrome coupled with slave mentality in a malevolent combination that we never saw before. And the Regime capitalized on it today.

Today, they brought back the internet, and started having people calling on TV and writing on facebook on how they support Mubarak and his call for stability and peacefull change in 8 months. They hung on to the words of the newly appointed government would never harm the protesters, whom they believe to be good patriotic youth who have a few bad apples amongst them. We started getting calls asking people to stop protesting because “we got what we wanted” and “we need the country to start working again”. People were complaining that they miss their lives. That they miss going out at night, and ordering Home Delivery. That they need us to stop so they can resume whatever existence they had before all of this. All was forgiven, the past week never happened and it’s time for Unity under Mubarak’s rule right now.

To all of those people I say: NEVER! I am sorry that your lives and businesses are disrupted, but this wasn’t caused by the Protesters. The Protesters aren’t the ones who shut down the internet that has paralyzed your businesses and banks: The government did. The Protesters weren’t the ones who initiated the military curfew that limited your movement and allowed goods to disappear off market shelves and gas to disappear: The government did. The Protesters weren’t the ones who ordered the police to withdraw and claimed the prisons were breached and unleashed thugs that terrorized your neighborhoods: The government did. The same government that you wish to give a second chance to, as if 30 years of dictatorship and utter failure in every sector of government wasn’t enough for you. The Slaves were ready to forgive their master, and blame his cruelty on those who dared to defy him in order to ensure a better Egypt for all of its citizens and their children. After all, he gave us his word, and it’s not like he ever broke his promises for reform before or anything.

Then Mubarak made his move and showed them what useful idiots they all were.

You watched on TV as “Pro-Mubarak Protesters” – thugs who were paid money by NDP members by admission of High NDP officials- started attacking the peaceful unarmed protesters in Tahrir square. They attacked them with sticks, threw stones at them, brought in men riding horses and camels- in what must be the most surreal scene ever shown on TV- and carrying whips to beat up the protesters. And then the Bullets started getting fired and Molotov cocktails started getting thrown at the Anti-Mubarak Protesters as the Army standing idly by, allowing it all to happen and not doing anything about it. Dozens were killed, hundreds injured, and there was no help sent by ambulances. The Police never showed up to stop those attacking because the ones who were captured by the Anti-mubarak people had police ID’s on them. They were the police and they were there to shoot and kill people and even tried to set the Egyptian Museum on Fire. The Aim was clear: Use the clashes as pretext to ban such demonstrations under pretexts of concern for public safety and order, and to prevent disunity amongst the people of Egypt. But their plans ultimately failed, by those resilient brave souls who wouldn’t give up the ground they freed of Egypt, no matter how many live bullets or firebombs were hurled at them. They know, like we all do, that this regime no longer cares to put on a moderate mask. That they have shown their true nature. That Mubarak will never step down, and that he would rather burn Egypt to the ground than even contemplate that possibility.

In the meantime, State-owned and affiliated TV channels were showing coverage of Peaceful Mubarak Protests all over Egypt and showing recorded footage of Tahrir Square protest from the night before and claiming it’s the situation there at the moment. Hundreds of calls by public figures and actors started calling the channels saying that they are with Mubarak, and that he is our Father and we should support him on the road to democracy. A veiled girl with a blurred face went on Mehwer TV claiming to have received funding by Americans to go to the US and took courses on how to bring down the Egyptian government through protests which were taught by Jews. She claimed that AlJazeera is lying, and that the only people in Tahrir square now were Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. State TV started issuing statements on how the people arrested Israelis all over Cairo engaged in creating mayhem and causing chaos. For those of you who are counting this is an American-Israeli-Qatari-Muslim Brotherhood-Iranian-Hamas conspiracy. Imagine that. And MANY PEOPLE BOUGHT IT. I recall telling a friend of mine that the only good thing about what happened today was that it made clear to us who were the idiots amongst our friends. Now we know.

Now, just in case this isn’t clear: This protest is not one made or sustained by the Muslim Brotherhood, it’s one that had people from all social classes and religious background in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood only showed up on Tuesday, and even then they were not the majority of people there by a long shot. We tolerated them there since we won’t say no to fellow Egyptians who wanted to stand with us, but neither the Muslims Brotherhood not any of the Opposition leaders have the ability to turn out one tenth of the numbers of Protesters that were in Tahrir on Tuesday. This is a revolution without leaders. Three Million individuals choosing hope instead of fear and braving death on hourly basis to keep their dream of freedom alive. Imagine that.

The End is near. I have no illusions about this regime or its leader, and how he will pluck us and hunt us down one by one till we are over and done with and 8 months from now will pay people to stage fake protests urging him not to leave power, and he will stay “because he has to acquiesce to the voice of the people”. This is a losing battle and they have all the weapons, but we will continue fighting until we can’t. I am heading to Tahrir right now with supplies for the hundreds injured, knowing that today the attacks will intensify, because they can’t allow us to stay there come Friday, which is supposed to be the game changer. We are bringing everybody out, and we will refuse to be anything else than peaceful. If you are in Egypt, I am calling on all of you to head down to Tahrir today and Friday. It is imperative to show them that the battle for the soul of Egypt isn’t over and done with. I am calling you to bring your friends, to bring medical supplies, to go and see what Mubarak’s guarantees look like in real life. Egypt needs you. Be Heroes.

Al Jazeera footage of Egypt Police vehicle running over protestors.