WOW GWJ ALLIANCE GUILD Primer for CATA- (please members only post) UPDATED 11/30

ELewis17 wrote:
Reaper81 wrote:

...those that work harder towards a goal are appropriately rewarded for their hard work.

I'm 100% for a loot system that strives to accomplish this.

See, I have a problem with the word "work" in here. World of Warcraft shouldn't be work. People shouldn't be rewarded for "working hard," they should be encouraged to take a break.

Anyway, it's a fundamental philosophical disagreement I have with points-based loot systems of any kind. I honestly don't believe that just because I show up for every raid and I'm there when every boss is downed that I have a more of a right to loot than anyone else. Loot is the icing. The cake is actually being there for the raid, learning the encounters and beating them with your friends.

Just know that I'll participate without complaint in any system that's set up. Plus I think I should stop kicking this horse. It's not getting up.

Just know that I'll participate without complaint in any system that's set up.

Thanks -- whatever decision is made, we hope folks will try to take this approach see how things work out with an open mind. We really do have a unique guild and in all these decisions we are looking for solutions that can help preserve and promote what we think is a great guild dynamic to have, even if times it is a bit complicated to make sure choices work as well as possible for all types of players.

Also, I'm optimistic that if we do choose to use EPGP for 10 man progression raids, folks who have reservations now might find themselves pleasantly surprised by how well it works. As I mentioned before, I was similarly skeptical that a points system could feel fair for all types of players before we started using it for 25 man progression content a year and a half ago, but my position changed dramatically after seeing it in action.

(Which is to say, new and casual players still got geared up just as fast, but the hardcore players were no longer in a position where they could not get any loot for weeks on end and still miss out on a useful drop that had eluded them through many months of concentrated effort to build a team capable of getting those new and casual players involved in the content being run.)

People shouldn't be rewarded for "working hard," they should be encouraged to take a break

There are many different definitions of the term "work". When we say "work" we imply putting forth effort to accomplish goals. Everything requires work of some sort, it's the different ways you apply it that make the difference. You can go sit in a cubicle and analyze number or stand in a factory and mindlessly assemble things and that would be considered work that must be done in order to make a living. The work that we talk about is learning your class, checking out strategies, or actually going in and having fun downing bosses and accomplishing goals. You don't like the term "work"? Call it effort. If you don't want to put forth the "effort" with 9 or 24 other people to progress and accomplish things, I don't think raiding is for you. Really, this is an environment for fun. People will be rewarded for putting forth "effort" or "working hard" to help us accomplish what we want to have fun.

I'm going to be blunt here. We're really starting to nitpick things like how people phrase things and move away from the underlying point of this discussion. This was a thread for people to give an overall opinion on how they view the guild and where they think the guild should go from here. Whatever loot system we use, people who understand that it will require effort to progress through raids and dedicate time will be rewarded moreso than people who are casual or prioritize guild raids and progression lower on their value system. The tradeoff to less raiding is more time in your RL to do stuff you think is more important, which is fine and your prerogative. But understand that the guild doesn't stand still and wait for anyone, if you raid more you'll be rewarded more, like anything in life, the more effort you put in the more benefits you will reap.

Does this mean when you do raid you won't be rewarded? No, it tends to all even out. If you have a problem with understanding that you won't be decked out in the highest level tier the first run for you, then raiding with us isn't the best idea. GWJ raids are here to 1. Have a good time. Come prepared, be a team player and listen to instructions and you'll have a good time. 2. Accomplish our goals. Our goal is to progress, learn and help others achieve what we have and more. This will include difficult learning curves and the good possibility you will walk out with no loot and some lost gold. It happens, but if everyone remains dedicated, we will achieve said goals. 3. Get people geared/rewarded for effort. You won't get gear every run, and there might be stretches where it seems you get skunked for a couple/few runs. We can't prevent it happening, but if there's any guild that does their best to make sure everyone is eventually rewarded for their effort, it's this one.

We have had a lot of opinions on loot systems, and I really think at this point we have a good idea of the spectrum of ideas on DKP vs Open Rolls. I would suggest we refocus this thread on the other points in the original post. If people haven't had their say on loot, feel free to post, but at this point I don't think anything can be added to sway our decisions one way or another.

PS - If anyone has any hard line stances on not raiding if we use one system or another, please let an officer know so we can note it when setting up raids. I don't anticipate anyone refraining at this point, but the last thing we need is loot drama after we institute any policies regarding raid loot.

Reaper81 wrote:
zeroKFE wrote:

Tool.

>.>
<.<

Tool, you say?

DONE.

"Tool's [i wrote:

forty-six & 2[/i]]
My shadow's
shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding in

My shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.

I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured within

My shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.

I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.

I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

Call me stupid, but i never understood what 46 and 2 stood for.

I'm just happy if something I can use drops. Its all hunter stuff, anyway.

Isn't there a mod that distributes loot via a Peggle shoot off? Throw my vote in for that loot system.

On to raid leaders:
So, a RL is, or isn't necessarily an officer?

So, a RL is, or isn't necessarily an officer?

Not necessarily, but they do have to understand all roles of a boss fight and be prepared to make adjustments or fix problems that occur during a fight.

ELewis17 wrote:

Isn't there a mod that distributes loot via a Peggle shoot off? Throw my vote in for that loot system.

O. M. G. Best Loot System EVER!

Cheeto1016 wrote:
ELewis17 wrote:

Isn't there a mod that distributes loot via a Peggle shoot off? Throw my vote in for that loot system.

O. M. G. Best Loot System EVER!

As long as no one cheats and uses that damn owl, I think it'd be pretty hard to call unfair.

EvilMonkeyFG wrote:
So, a RL is, or isn't necessarily an officer?

Not necessarily, but they do have to understand all roles of a boss fight and be prepared to make adjustments or fix problems that occur during a fight.

Since I'm entering this expansion as a tank I don't think I'd be a particularly effective RL for progression content (not that anyone is asking). Maybe some tanks are great RLs, but I'm WAY too focused on myself during an involved fight. Though I'd like to offer some of my time to the guild in any way I can help. I've quite enjoyed parsing through all the data from the Algalon fights in an attempt to see where we could improve (I know, I'm sick); otherwise I'm willing help with scheduling or whatever else is needed.

ELewis17 wrote:
Cheeto1016 wrote:
ELewis17 wrote:

Isn't there a mod that distributes loot via a Peggle shoot off? Throw my vote in for that loot system.

O. M. G. Best Loot System EVER!

As long as no one cheats and uses that damn owl, I think it'd be pretty hard to call unfair.

EvilMonkeyFG wrote:
So, a RL is, or isn't necessarily an officer?

Not necessarily, but they do have to understand all roles of a boss fight and be prepared to make adjustments or fix problems that occur during a fight.

Since I'm entering this expansion as a tank I don't think I'd be a particularly effective RL for progression content (not that anyone is asking). Maybe some tanks are great RLs, but I'm WAY too focused on myself during an involved fight. Though I'd like to offer some of my time to the guild in any way I can help. I've quite enjoyed parsing through all the data from the Algalon fights in an attempt to see where we could improve (I know, I'm sick); otherwise I'm willing help with scheduling or whatever else is needed.

Sounds like you want to be the guild's city clerk or our newly formed research and development wing. Sure beats my job as the complaints department. There will be more to come on guild officers' roles and probably a restructure of the guild ranks to a more meaningful identity to the rank name, if anyone wants to comment on that.

ranalin wrote:
Reaper81 wrote:
zeroKFE wrote:

Tool.

>.>
<.<

Tool, you say?

DONE.

"Tool's [i wrote:

forty-six & 2[/i]]
My shadow's
shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding in

My shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.

I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured within

My shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.

I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.

I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

Call me stupid, but i never understood what 46 and 2 stood for.

A hypothetical next step in human evolution. (I really believe that Tool is the thinking man's metal.)

1. Raid Nights - I'd like to set up a standard set of raid nights for folks as we we go forward. Proposal is to have Tuesday and Sunday as guild PVE raid nights. Wednesday can be PVP Battleground night. Monday is newbie / leveling group night.

I think I can work with what you guys are doing now. Now that I've hit 80, I probably won't be on every night. However, I wouldn't mind making something Wednesday night instead of having our 3 GWJ guild nights all in a row. Just an idea.

2. Loot rules- what are we going to do? Pure roll, dkp, or loot council? Open to suggestions here but want to be very clear as to what we are going to do. Whatever we decide, I want to make sure loot is staying in guild for those who contribute to the whole as a guild

. I know there can always be a danger of someone coming in and screwing over someone else but won't %99 of us just let loot go to whoever needs it or abide by the roll result? I'll let more experienced heads decide this one but personally, I was never a huge fan of loot rules. As long as everyone is cool to each other... I don't know. I know how I usually play is that if I'm in a guild-only situation and I win a bunch of stuff that other people need, I spread it out. As long as everyone gets at least one piece of gear a night, everyone is generally happy.

3. Raid leaders- This is a tough job, so whoever we come up with as raid leaders, be nice. Do we put set teams together, and if so, how many? (I don't think I like this idea btw, doesn't allow us all to interact)

I don't like the idea of having squads.

4. Guild achievements- Should we set a night for this? We get lion mounts.

It depends on what it entails. I think having 3 guild-activity nights a week is a lot as it is. It's possible a lot of these achievements will come through our raiding/ leveling nights since we'll be playing with the guild anyway.

5. Officers- Do we have a good structure? Do we need more? Are we meeting the needs of the guild? What do we need the officers to do? Am I a complete tool?

I think you're ok, grinds.

6. Expectations-

... loots? I don't know. My expectations have already been met. I got to 80 and everyone was super helpful in getting me there and now I return the favor/ get myself slightly better geared for cat.

7. Main toon- there is a post for this already, but I will be making a guild roster with toon / forum name and role for people to view.

Rantin: Shaman, healer, rDPS, man about town. One thing though, now that Ranalin re-upped we should probably refer to me as penguin in game. All of Ran's characters start with Ran- so... I guess he stole it.

See the original post for updated info in bold.

Brilliant!

I think the loot system is amazing. It is the best of both worlds, we can have our cake and eat it too!

Everything sounds perfect imo.

I am going to be completely honest, those rules are way, way too complicated for me.

The only bit of clarification I'd bring up: slot specific tier tokens are returning in some form or another. Some reports say they will be needed for all five tier slots, other reports say that legs, gloves, and chests will be buyable with valor points and only helms and shoulders will require a specific tier token. Either way, though, it seems like slot specific tier tokens might fall into a weird middle ground between rare weapon drops and common armor drops, so it might be good to clarify whether they will be distributed by EPGP or by our open/priority loot method.

EDGP will be used on your main to get weapons and trinkets and it will reset every major patch but armor will go to who needs it.

Better?

oilypenguin wrote:

EDGP will be used on your main to get weapons and trinkets and it will reset every major patch.

Better?

I understand that. Not wanting to cause drama, I'll leave my specific concerns out of the thread.

zeroKFE wrote:

...other reports say that legs, gloves, and chests will be buyable with valor points and only helms and shoulders will require a specific tier token.

This is the case, at least for the first tier. The JP/VP vendors are in SW currently.

oilypenguin wrote:

EDGP will be used on your main to get weapons and trinkets and it will reset every major patch but armor will go to who needs it.

Better?

Rares (weapons / trinkets) epgp... armors open roll, 1 item per run unless no one else needs. Not sure it is better or not, but it is rewarding those doing progression content for the guild without excluding everyone from all the loot. The intent of this was to keep the rarer items in the guild to help us progress further and have the ability to drag lower geared folks through the content. Effort is rewarded by getting an opportunity at the rare items somewhat quicker than someone who is not able to provide assistance as often.

zeroKFE wrote:

The only bit of clarification I'd bring up: slot specific tier tokens are returning in some form or another. Some reports say they will be needed for all five tier slots, other reports say that legs, gloves, and chests will be buyable with valor points and only helms and shoulders will require a specific tier token. Either way, though, it seems like slot specific tier tokens might fall into a weird middle ground between rare weapon drops and common armor drops, so it might be good to clarify whether they will be distributed by EPGP or by our open/priority loot method.

Didn't read that at all, but we have people that do (thanks folks). I'm not sure how much this will need to be considered, but we can discuss it. I don't want the more casual folks to be shut out of all the shiny stuff.

Reaper81 wrote:

I am going to be completely honest, those rules are way, way too complicated for me.

Pretty much in the same boat - I feel like I failed an exam just reading this thread!

I'm totally new to raiding (bad gear, no experience etc.) and wonder where I'd fit in with all these rules and regulations since I don't entirely understand them.

Mimble wrote:
Reaper81 wrote:

I am going to be completely honest, those rules are way, way too complicated for me.

Pretty much in the same boat - I feel like I failed an exam just reading this thread!

I'm totally new to raiding (bad gear, no experience etc.) and wonder where I'd fit in with all these rules and regulations since I don't entirely understand them.

Basically, there will be two separate means of acquiring loot through GWJ raids:

1. Consistent participation - weapons / trinkets.

2. Random chance through simple participation - all other loot.

tundra wrote:

See the original post for updated info in bold.

I started reading the thread before your change and by the time I got to page three you'd posted your change.

I've never quite experienced the forums "in real time" before.

(keanu)Whoa.(/keanu)

The intent of this was to keep the rarer items in the guild

I think you meant to say this differently. Honestly, if someone uses the guild to get progression items/gear and then jumps guild, I don't see any reason they should ever come back.

I'm totally new to raiding (bad gear, no experience etc.) and wonder where I'd fit in with all these rules and regulations since I don't entirely understand them.

In practice, it should be a lot less confusing. Learn the fights, show up, kill the boss, and loot will get distributed as evenly and fairly as possible amongst the raid.

The wall of text is intended to make very clear how we will handle the rare scenarios that have caused loot drama in the past, and is really just putting things in writing and taking advantage of a tool (EPGP) to help make sure those scenarios also end with loot being given to players as evenly and fairly as possible in a way that is 1) transparent and 2) as simple to understand and manage as possible.

Might I suggest putting the loot rules in a clearly labeled post.

1) So it doesn't get lost here

2) It make it easy for me to link to in the sticky!

zeroKFE wrote:
I'm totally new to raiding (bad gear, no experience etc.) and wonder where I'd fit in with all these rules and regulations since I don't entirely understand them.

In practice, it should be a lot less confusing. Learn the fights, show up, kill the boss, and loot will get distributed as evenly and fairly as possible amongst the raid.

The wall of text is intended to make very clear how we will handle the rare scenarios that have caused loot drama in the past, and is really just putting things in writing and taking advantage of a tool (EPGP) to help make sure those scenarios also end with loot being given to players as evenly and fairly as possible in a way that is 1) transparent and 2) as simple to understand and manage as possible.

Thanks zeroKFE, I was finding the wall of text a little daunting. I'll be happy to just do as I'm told while I'm learning and not be the reason we all get killed. Shiny loot that I actually need is a bonus.

I'll try to compose the wall of text in a better format when I get a chance. Was trying to get the info out there for people to read and digest before we hit expansion.

I was hoping for a count of people who would be up for weekly BG runs. Additionally, season 10 is a week after Cat drops. I am not sure if I will be 85 by December 14(law school and all), but I am hoping to have a team set up for 2, 3, 5 man arena. I know Fed and Elewis expressed interest, anyone else?

Here is what I would like. A 2 person team can have 4 people signed on, allowing "alternates." I would love it if we had 10-15 interested characters so that we could field 2, 3, and 5 man teams.