This is Not the Boogle Memorial Dating Advice/Tips Thread, No

LouZiffer wrote:

I was taught that a lot of the time when people say "but", you can safely throw everything immediately before the "but" out the window.

(Note: Does not work with "butt", as in the example "finger -> butt".)

I shall attempt to prove you wrong.

Spoiler:

You enjoy my finger in your butt... where's my ring?

My boyfriend and I's first date was Taco Bell...he paid.

And I agree about the generalizations. While I'm like most women in a lot of ways...I'm very different from most women in a lot of ways as well, so generalizations are pretty useless when looking at people as potential dates.

As for having preferences such as for weight, I would like to upset at you and call you wrong, however, I find I have the strong physical preferences myself. I have a huge draw towards a certain type of man. I have tried to date other types and that magical lust element just wasn't there. While I could still like spending time with them, I felt more friendship feelings than attraction. I thought it would come with time, but it really didn't. That physical connection can make it a lot easier to get through rougher times.

One thing to remember, though, is that people change, age, bald, and often gain/lose weight. That 23 year old hottie might look a bit different at 45 after three children, so there does need to be more to the attraction than just purely physical....will you still want that person when the shiny wears off?

Sometimes I read this thread and wonder if I'm doing it wrong, but I like my woman; She likes me and we get along well. I find, by the standards of this thread, that it seems weird that I've made a special trip out to *sleep* with her (as in REM state, not sex) simply because we like being with each other.

SuperDave wrote:
LouZiffer wrote:

I was taught that a lot of the time when people say "but", you can safely throw everything immediately before the "but" out the window.

(Note: Does not work with "butt", as in the example "finger -> butt".)

I shall attempt to prove you wrong.

Spoiler:

You enjoy my finger in your butt... where's my ring?

Damn you, SuperDave!

Nosferatu wrote:

Sometimes I read this thread and wonder if I'm doing it wrong, but I like my woman; She likes me and we get along well. I find, by the standards of this thread, that it seems weird that I've made a special trip out to *sleep* with her (as in REM state, not sex) simply because we like being with each other.

Oh hell no

I've had girls ask me that, but no, if you're in my bed you gonna get fondled, damn it!

One girl ended up scratching me...

unntrlaffinity wrote:

I had lunch with a girl I met via online dating, and it was fun, but she's a more full-figured lady than I'm usually attracted to. Which I know is a touchy subject, but I do find it bizarre that people accept dating discrimination/preferences on the basis of religion, height, income, fashion, eye/hair color, and even ethnicity, but weight tends to bring in accusations of being shallow. I'm a fairly skinny dude, so I don't think it's a shocking preference (it's not like there have never been exceptions, and I don't reject any girl that isn't an emaciated heroin junkie), but there it is.

I used to worry that I was shallow since I was typically not attracted to overweight girls, but my ex was like 5'1" and around 150lbs. or so. However, she still seemed very sexy to me because she tried to work out a lot, so yeah, she had a chubby tummy, but it was a toned chubby tummy and therefore I still found her midriff to be sexy.

But that doesn't happen often. I've seen other girls that had even less padding than she had, but because they clearly don't work out I just don't have as much attraction. As a result, I think the biggest reason I can't find myself being attracted to a lot of overweight women is because they aren't fit rather than they are overweight. If dating sites are to be believed, this also causes them to seriously overcompensate (I REALLY hate how big an emphasis women have over beauty on the inside, because if you're fat on the outside than your actual insides are still going to look pretty gross, and that's unhealthy).

I don't just worry about coming off as shallow, though, but as being a hypocrite since I myself am overweight. Looking in the mirror, though, I've begun to notice that I don't have the same sort of "fat build" other overweight people I've known have. Like my ex, I can see where I actually have muscle definition and toning. So I at least feel good about that, and in the end that's what I look for in a partner. I want to know that they want to keep healthy as well, at the very least so I have someone that can help me work hard to lose weight and achieve my goal of being healthier.

And in that regard, I don't think it's shallow at all to want someone who cares about their health. If someone is going to ignore the fact that their weight is a health problem, or keep themselves from doing something about it, then what else will they ignore or just refuse to act on?

Other interesting tidbit my friend and I discussed. I've heard for the past several years that there's this figure stating only around 30% of women ever achieve an orgasm or some such, or at the very least during sex with a male. I have no clue how true this is, but I've known a lot of stereotypes and other such things about girls having trouble getting off.

Well, apparently the primary cause isn't the guy so much as it is the woman having a lack of confidence in bed. I can see this, honestly, as a nervous guy, especially one lacking in confidence, will either ejaculate way too early or won't even get hard at all. Hell, I've experienced such issues. I don't know if this is common sense, but it just seemed like food for thought.

It also reminded me of a discussion with a woman I had today who had told me of her first time in order to try and give me advice for in case I ever ended up getting it on with a virgin (something I am fearful of ever doing). One of the things she mentioned is that her first boyfriend never really made her feel pretty, and it really effected the experience for her. So I think in the bedroom it would probably help both man and woman along to just take a moment to admire the woman and let her know that she's very, very attractive.

Unless it has already reached the point where the two of you are like animals. At which point, no assistance needed. But if it's a more romantic dance of the hibbidy dibbidy, then I think it would very much work better.

Nosferatu wrote:

Sometimes I read this thread and wonder if I'm doing it wrong, but I like my woman; She likes me and we get along well. I find, by the standards of this thread, that it seems weird that I've made a special trip out to *sleep* with her (as in REM state, not sex) simply because we like being with each other.

I'm of the opinion that this is fine as well. As I've said, I'm not really out for the sexing, though biological urges are bound to make me want it. However, I am completely fine with just having a girl come over and sleeping side by side.

But that's always going to depend on the people in the relationship and what they're looking for.

peacensunshine wrote:

One thing to remember, though, is that people change, age, bald, and often gain/lose weight. That 23 year old hottie might look a bit different at 45 after three children, so there does need to be more to the attraction than just purely physical....will you still want that person when the shiny wears off?

I agree with this 100%! Physical appearance will change. Possibly even before it does, you're going to get tired of each other if you don't communicate and let your sex life grow and mature along with you. One major thing that helps is striving for total openness between the two of you about what gets you going (which can also grow or change over time). Wild fantasies or whatever. That level of intimacy and trust wins over good looks any day, in my opinion.

EDIT (Kept thinking after posting): As far as marriage or similarly committed relationships are concerned I think that one's sex life shouldn't be solely about satisfying physical urges anymore after the first few years (if that). It's about sharing things with your partner that no one else shares. It's about being vulnerable and trusting in ways that take time to develop. It should get better over time. I think a lot of couples may secretly harbor disappointment when it doesn't.

For anyone who feels that way: If you're not continuing to work at deepening that trust and level of contact, then my advice is to think about it and share your thoughts with your partner. Take a chance on them. Trust them to understand and share back. That's (hopefully) one reason why you're in your relationship anyway!

Stengah wrote:

Lactose intolerant people?

Usually like ice cream just fine in my experience, they just don't like what it does to them later.

boogle wrote:

When I think eating pie I think waffle house...and that is not classy.

"I like my women like I like my hash browns: covered and chunked."

No, I don't have any idea what that means. I just know it sounds filthy as all getout.

Vargen wrote:

"I like my women like I like my hash browns: covered and chunked."

No, I don't have any idea what that means. I just know it sounds filthy as all getout.

At least they haven't been smothered and scattered.

LouZiffer wrote:
Vargen wrote:

"I like my women like I like my hash browns: covered and chunked."

No, I don't have any idea what that means. I just know it sounds filthy as all getout.

At least they haven't been smothered and scattered.

Ohh, the visual!!

ccesarano wrote:

But that doesn't happen often. I've seen other girls that had even less padding than she had, but because they clearly don't work out I just don't have as much attraction. As a result, I think the biggest reason I can't find myself being attracted to a lot of overweight women is because they aren't fit rather than they are overweight. If dating sites are to be believed, this also causes them to seriously overcompensate (I REALLY hate how big an emphasis women have over beauty on the inside, because if you're fat on the outside than your actual insides are still going to look pretty gross, and that's unhealthy).

I don't just worry about coming off as shallow, though, but as being a hypocrite since I myself am overweight. Looking in the mirror, though, I've begun to notice that I don't have the same sort of "fat build" other overweight people I've known have. Like my ex, I can see where I actually have muscle definition and toning. So I at least feel good about that, and in the end that's what I look for in a partner. I want to know that they want to keep healthy as well, at the very least so I have someone that can help me work hard to lose weight and achieve my goal of being healthier.

And in that regard, I don't think it's shallow at all to want someone who cares about their health. If someone is going to ignore the fact that their weight is a health problem, or keep themselves from doing something about it, then what else will they ignore or just refuse to act on?

The trouble is people almost never kick slim-but-unhealthy people out of bed for eating crackers, no matter how many crackers they eat or how much plaque they have in their arteries. So it's not really about being with someone who cares about their health, my guess is it's about how a fat person being concerned about their health cancels out the negative of them being fat. In the end, it might not have anything to do with being fat, it might have to do with the stereotypes that go along with fat people, like being lazy.

+++++

And really, what's the problem with being "shallow"? When we're talking about attraction, we're talking about to some extent superficial physical characteristics that have nothing to do with the contents of a person's character. To acknowledge that isn't to be shallow, it's to be...human. I guess you could say:

--physical attraction being a sufficient condition to want an emotional relationship with someone is to be shallow.

--physical attraction being a necessary condition to want an emotional relationship with someone is to be human.

To go back to something unntrlaffinity asked, it's a touchy subject because we make such a big deal about it. Which is understandable: if we can find an 'objective' reason why we're not attracted to fat people, then we're immune to charges that we've been brainwashed by our culture or we're shallow for buying into the stereotypes. However, there's a danger in going too far the other way that's just as bad: we can wind up concocting elaborate theories for why our subjective tastes are really objective truths instead of just recognizing that it's okay for different people to be attracted to different things.

peacensunshine wrote:

One thing to remember, though, is that people change, age, bald, and often gain/lose weight. That 23 year old hottie might look a bit different at 45 after three children, so there does need to be more to the attraction than just purely physical....will you still want that person when the shiny wears off?

I have no interest in a long-term relationship, so currently anticipating two decades into the future isn't high on my priority list. If I met someone I was absolutely smitten with, that'd be different, and their future physical appearance could be a factor in that future relationship, but one I assume we'd work through like any other obstacle that arose over the next 30 years.

What I find interesting isn't that we make a big deal about weight, since we can make a big deal out of anything. It's that more than any of those other seemingly controversial factors, weight is the single quality I have taken the most flack for when it comes to dating preferences. I don't really give a sh*t about age, or income, or height, or hair/eye color, or a thousand other debatable qualities, but body type and weight are important to me when it comes to having a physical attraction to somebody.

Drinks and the play were good. I found myself actually chatting more with the visiting friend just by chance, instead of the girl who originally invited me out, since we both went to Mexico recently and she went to Brazil and enjoyed the City of Men/City of God movies/tv show. But then the visiting friend gracefully and mercifully excused herself to chat up some other folks at the bar, leaving the girl and I alone for a bit before the show. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was appreciated nonetheless.

I have an extra ticket to see Stars tomorrow, and I figure I'll invite her out to that (the original girl, not the visiting friend.) Not sure if she'll be comfortable leaving the friend to fend for herself while she goes to a show, but I figure it can't hurt to ask.

Mex wrote:
Nosferatu wrote:

Sometimes I read this thread and wonder if I'm doing it wrong, but I like my woman; She likes me and we get along well. I find, by the standards of this thread, that it seems weird that I've made a special trip out to *sleep* with her (as in REM state, not sex) simply because we like being with each other.

Oh hell no

I've had girls ask me that, but no, if you're in my bed you gonna get fondled, damn it!

One girl ended up scratching me...

A friend of mine has a word for this: cuddleslut.

I'm actually the opposite when it comes to weight. While I'm not into obese men, I do like "a little meat on the bones," and am not into that cut look. I don't like seeing veins, sinew, or bones. I can't look at it and not see the inside of a body. I prefer a layer of fat over the muscle. They can be well built...just not veiny and cut. And pudgy doesn't bother me, as long as it isn't too jiggly. Most women I know prefer a leaner man, with cut abs, though.

Don't get me wrong, the "For He-who-shall-not-get-any" happens too. Just there have been other times that honestly I was too damn tired to do more than cuddle and sleep.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

What I find interesting isn't that we make a big deal about weight, since we can make a big deal out of anything. It's that more than any of those other seemingly controversial factors, weight is the single quality I have taken the most flak for when it comes to dating preferences. I don't really give a sh*t about age, or income, or height, or hair/eye color, or a thousand other debatable qualities, but body type and weight are important to me when it comes to having a physical attraction to somebody.

Maybe that's the answer right there--you take the most flak for it because it's the only one of those that is important to you. You don't wind up taking flak for things that are not important to you because if it's not important one way or the other to you, what is there for anyone to give you flak about?

Someone at a party just kept referring to their girlfriend as the cockpit.

CheezePavilion wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

What I find interesting isn't that we make a big deal about weight, since we can make a big deal out of anything. It's that more than any of those other seemingly controversial factors, weight is the single quality I have taken the most flak for when it comes to dating preferences. I don't really give a sh*t about age, or income, or height, or hair/eye color, or a thousand other debatable qualities, but body type and weight are important to me when it comes to having a physical attraction to somebody.

Maybe that's the answer right there--you take the most flak for it because it's the only one of those that is important to you. You don't wind up taking flak for things that are not important to you because if it's not important one way or the other to you, what is there for anyone to give you flak about?

I was more making the case that I shouldn't get flak for expressing an honest preference, period. Any more than if I have a friend who doesn't date black guys (or only dates black guys) or another friend who is obsessed with (natural) redheads. And that in a group discussion, those preferences seem to fly under the radar, while expressing a weight or body type preference is demonized.

I am absolutely willing to have a conversation about why we are attracted to certain qualities, even if we can't always articulate our reasons for those preferences. But I find that when the conversation turns to weight, a reasonable discussion becomes difficult, more so than any of the other qualities I mentioned. That's the thing I find interesting, how sensitive it seems even when compared to what are otherwise innately controversial subjects.

If other folks have had a different experience, where perhaps in their circle weight isn't controversial, but let's say ethnicity is, I'd be curious to hear their perspective as well.

Does that make sense? I feel like I'm just digging myself a hole, actually. Slicing away at an errant ball in the sand trap, quickly making my way towards the earth's molten core where I will be boiled alive.

boogle wrote:

Someone at a party just kept referring to their girlfriend as the cockpit.

That's also the name of a gay bar in Austin.

Edit: I define "flak" as baseless, unjustified criticism. Where there's no discussion, and people come to this weird hive consensus that you're in the wrong.

unntrlaffinity wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

What I find interesting isn't that we make a big deal about weight, since we can make a big deal out of anything. It's that more than any of those other seemingly controversial factors, weight is the single quality I have taken the most flak for when it comes to dating preferences. I don't really give a sh*t about age, or income, or height, or hair/eye color, or a thousand other debatable qualities, but body type and weight are important to me when it comes to having a physical attraction to somebody.

Maybe that's the answer right there--you take the most flak for it because it's the only one of those that is important to you. You don't wind up taking flak for things that are not important to you because if it's not important one way or the other to you, what is there for anyone to give you flak about?

I was more making the case that I shouldn't get flak for expressing an honest preference, period. Any more than if I have a friend who doesn't date black guys (or only dates black guys) or another friend who is obsessed with (natural) redheads. And that in a group discussion, those preferences seem to fly under the radar, while expressing a weight or body type preference is demonized.

I am absolutely willing to have a conversation about why we are attracted to certain qualities, even if we can't always articulate our reasons for those preferences. But I find that when the conversation turns to weight, a reasonable discussion becomes difficult, more so than any of the other qualities I mentioned. That's the thing I find interesting, how sensitive it seems even when compared to what are otherwise innately controversial subjects.

If other folks have had a different experience, where perhaps in their circle weight isn't controversial, but let's say ethnicity is, I'd be curious to hear their perspective as well.

Does that make sense? I feel like I'm just digging myself a hole, actually. Slicing away at an errant ball in the sand trap, quickly making my way towards the earth's molten core where I will be boiled alive.

Heh--the golf metaphor makes me think of how Tiger Woods seemed unable to resist cheating on his wife...as long as the woman was white!

No, I get where you're coming from, and here's my guess at an answer: I think it's because weight is more controversial than those subjects; in fact, I'd say those subjects are not controversial--in the sense of that word that matters for purposes of this question--anymore at all. The debate about the color of someone's skin/hair being more important than the contents of their character is pretty much settled: anyone making an argument that someone is inferior on the basis of physical color is pretty much not going to be taken seriously.

Fat, on the other hand, that controversy is still alive and kicking. So when someone in our circle of friends mentions a preference for skin or hair color--and they don't go all John Mayer on us--we feel safe in assuming it's not a matter of racism, because we can't imagine one of our friends being a racist; we give them the benefit of the doubt. With fat though, we can't give people the benefit of the doubt because I know I've been shocked to see what people I otherwise thought I knew have to say on the subject.

So sure it would be as bad if someone in a circle of friends was found out to be a racist as if they were found out to be a fatphobe--in fact, I'd say it would be worse. Why a reasonable discussion becomes more difficult when a body type preference is expressed compared to a skin/hair color preference is because no one is worried that a skin/hair color preference is because of racism, but we can't be as certain a body type preference isn't due to bigotry.

Plus we know racists seem to have no problem having sex with members of the race they supposedly hate--the same guy who filibustered a Civil Rights Act had a kid with his family's black maid. On the other hand, we're still under the delusion that people who *say* they don't find fat people attractive aren't out...having sex with fat people on the downlow. What people are willing to admit to in public is a lot different from what they're actually up to when the club closes.

Conversation has moved on a little since i was last here, but I do want to address the issue of generalisations.

Generalisation is just a useful rule of thumb for the early stages in a relationship.

If you're a wrestling fan and are trying to think of a first date it's natural, and harmless, to think to yourself that, as a rule of thumb, not many women are into wrestling. So you invite her to coffee instead.

During said date you admit to being a wrestling fan, and it turns out she likes it, so you go next time. Or she doesn't and you haven't dragged her to 4 hours of guys hitting each other with chairs because you were scared to generalise.

If you still need to generalise after the second date, maybe you need to rethink your conversation skills.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Most of my dates in the last few years have come through online dating. I always insist on paying on the first date, the conversation usually goes something like.

Me: "It's on me, I'm old fashioned. I always pay for the first date."
Her: "Are you sure? Really, I don't expect that."
Me: "Yes, I'm sure. Tell you what, I will let you pay next time." *laugh*
Her: *laugh* "okay, that sounds fair."
Me: "Awesome, so we will go to {somewhere really expensive}" *laugh*

It gets a nice flow going and it clarifies interest in a follow up. We will usually go Dutch on follow up dates though.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The whole weight thing is a bit of a minefield. I do like a 'womanly' figure and I won't shut down someone who is a little overweight, but it really boils down to the person. I was crazy about my ex, despite her being a little overweight.

Are they a person I like being around, to the point that extra weight doesn't bug me? That's fine. But I'm not going to pretend to be attracted to someone I'm not. And sorry if this makes me sound bad, but is someone is really overweight, that is very unattractive to me.

CheezePavilion wrote:

Stuff.

I accept and approve your thesis, sir.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Are they a person I like being around, to the point that extra weight doesn't bug me? That's fine. But I'm not going to pretend to be attracted to someone I'm not. And sorry if this makes me sound bad, but is someone is really overweight, that is very unattractive to me.

I've actually had that conversation, regarding paying on the first date. And have a similar feelings on attraction.

Maybe some specific opinions and preferences should not be shared publicly when a simple, 'I wasn't attracted to her,' or a 'she wasn't my type,' will do, as it does make you sound like a jerk...justified or not.

I know, I'd never answer an OKCupid ad or something if the guys profile required HWP or said something like "no fatties." I generally think I'm HWP...but, maybe his definition of HWP is not the same as mine and he obviously finds body type very, very, important and I might not be the type. I just think it sounds rude...honest or not. I know it logically doesn't make sense...but this whole thread has had me rethinking a lot of my assumptions.

I always get jumped on for the "I won't date a man more than a year or two older than me." My friends think this is shallow.

peacensunshine wrote:

Maybe some specific opinions and preferences should not be shared publicly when a simple, 'I wasn't attracted to her,' or a 'she wasn't my type,' will do, as it does make you sound like a jerk...justified or not.

Good point. No need to be too specific as to why you aren't attracted to someone.

unntrlaffinity wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Stuff.

I accept and approve your thesis, sir.

Glad to be of service.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

The whole weight thing is a bit of a minefield.

It certainly is.

CheezePavilion wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

The whole weight thing is a bit of a minefield.

It certainly is.

That Jersey Shore link is hilarious. I have to try see that show sometime.

peacensunshine wrote:

Maybe some specific opinions and preferences should not be shared publicly when a simple, 'I wasn't attracted to her,' or a 'she wasn't my type,' will do, as it does make you sound like a jerk...justified or not.

I know, I'd never answer an OKCupid ad or something if the guys profile required HWP or said something like "no fatties." I generally think I'm HWP...but, maybe his definition of HWP is not the same as mine and he obviously finds body type very, very, important and I might not be the type. I just think it sounds rude...honest or not. I know it logically doesn't make sense...but this whole thread has had me rethinking a lot of my assumptions.

I always get jumped on for the "I won't date a man more than a year or two older than me." My friends think this is shallow.

That's interesting about the age thing. I don't see why it'd be considered shallow, because age can have a direct impact on life experience or interests. And, let's face it, your future years. I used to have a 4 year rule, in either direction, because I rationalized that if you couldn't have gone to high school with a person, your experiences and general world view are likely to be very different. Although I have dated a woman 9 years older with whom I'm still friends, and I still think she's fantastic. So I can't say I have a hard and fast age rule myself, but half your age plus seven (or half their age plus seven) as the youngest age you should date seems like a good rule of thumb from a practical standpoint.

I used to have a joke in my online profile indicating that girls should contact me if they were roommates with the emaciated, bipolar, gutter punk princess of my dreams. I removed it for exactly the reasons you mentioned. One girl I went out with and very briefly was serious with told me she almost didn't message me because she thought I only dated skinny girls, and she was worried I didn't find her attractive. And I was baffled she didn't consider herself skinny, because she was athletic and worked out constantly. After I removed it, I got a lot more messages. I just figured it'd obviously come across as a joke, because generally emaciation, bipolar disorder, or gutter punkness aren't commonly viewed as prime qualities in a potential match. Not so.

Being vague in certain situations can definitely avoid some uncomfortable conversations. I guess I just feel that among friends I should be able to express myself honestly, without inviting abuse. But obviously there are still some subjects that are taboo, even among the people you're close to. So that's probably good advice.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Being vague in certain situations can definitely avoid some uncomfortable conversations. I guess I just feel that among friends I should be able to express myself honestly, without inviting abuse. But obviously there are still some subjects that are taboo, even among the people you're close to. So that's probably good advice.

And advice I should really learn to use myself cuz I'm not known for my tact.

Other than obviously creepy situations (if someone's underage, for example), I think it's silly to have hard-and-fast age rules. It's something to take into account, but it shouldn't be a dealbreaker in and of itself. If someone has absolutely everything else going for them but is just a little bit older or younger than your normal comfort zone, it's worth taking a chance.

CheezePavilion wrote:

The trouble is people almost never kick slim-but-unhealthy people out of bed for eating crackers, no matter how many crackers they eat or how much plaque they have in their arteries. So it's not really about being with someone who cares about their health, my guess is it's about how a fat person being concerned about their health cancels out the negative of them being fat. In the end, it might not have anything to do with being fat, it might have to do with the stereotypes that go along with fat people, like being lazy.

Actually, that sort of stuff DOES happen to cross my mind when I'm meeting girls and hanging out with them a bit. If they mention going to the gym regularly that's a plus for me, and if they don't seem to exercise regularly and joke about how they can eat whatever they want without getting fat, I just sigh and think "wait until you get pregnant and your body chemistry is totally screwed up". Or even as peacensunshine said, wait until you get older.

Other things that have been an insta-unattraction thing: seeing a hot girl put a cigarette in her mouth kills interest in her (I've actually gotten flack for this one, though). Also, hearing a girl say she doesn't want kids because she doesn't want to ruin her figure is another killer for me, as all of that person's priorities in life are now called into question (it's not only short-sighted, considering, again, looks go with age anyway, but if your appearance is more important than knowing the potential awesome of having kids, then I have to wonder about your priorities. I can understand not wanting to go through what seems like a painful experience, or not being certain you could even be a good parent, or just knowing that now is not a good time and maybe later you will. I've heard those and can understand them. But not wanting kids because you don't want to damage your figure? Please).

I've known some friends that feel the same way, actually. However, the one truth is that these are all superficial traits that, in the end, don't really count. As an example...

peacensunshine wrote:

I'm actually the opposite when it comes to weight. While I'm not into obese men, I do like "a little meat on the bones," and am not into that cut look. I don't like seeing veins, sinew, or bones. I can't look at it and not see the inside of a body. I prefer a layer of fat over the muscle. They can be well built...just not veiny and cut. And pudgy doesn't bother me, as long as it isn't too jiggly. Most women I know prefer a leaner man, with cut abs, though.

I'm completely on board with this. If I can see a girl's bones, my attraction just drops fast and hard. I find Mary Elizabeth Winstead to be a very attractive young actress, but in the one scene of Scott Pilgrim she has just her bra and panties, you can see her rib cage for a shot and all I can think is "Girl you need a cheeseburger or two." Maybe women really are supposed to be that thin, but man it just bothers me if I can make out your skeletal structure.

However, doesn't mean it is a deal-breaker, just as someone who is overweight (like my ex) won't be a deal breaker. The girl at my Bible Study who I'm going to try and talk with more tonight is like a stick, and thus typically a lot thinner than I prefer. However, her personality is cool enough that I'll shrug it off. If I can date someone overweight I can certainly try and date someone that is underweight.

However, to actually speak on the topic rather than spilling out my own perspective, I have noticed that a lot of people seem to just have no care for someone as long as they aren't fat. I've seen guys make a big deal out of a girl in a thong, and when I've looked I've winced and said "Dude, that is one flabby ass". At which point people ask me what the Hell I'm talking about, etc. etc. But it's clear from the picture that the girl doesn't work out, and thus she really isn't all that attractive. Yet I guess because she isn't fat and she happens to wear a thong she's still hot?

So you're right, I think with a lot of people, no one would care about lazy traits or over-eating if the person isn't overweight. But as soon as you are, all of a sudden all you can see is the fact that they're fat.

Maybe things would be better if most fat people weren't so defensive about it, though. I've gotten into arguments with other fat people because I can't stand their attitude, which is basically to avoid the subject at all costs. My friends and I joke about my weight, but it's in the same vein that we joke about all of our traits. Unfortunately, instead of my being fat meaning I have license to chew someone else out on it, I'm only made to look like a hypocrite.

On the topic of race, that's something that's always seemed iffy to me as well, but only because there are some races I am attracted to and some where sexual attraction doesn't even cross my mind. Or rather, certain racial characteristics. Speaking of generalization, I think a lot of assumptions are made when someone says "I only date blacks" or "I only date Asians", or a refusal to date those groups. In truth every group is diverse, and while I've often thought I'm not really attracted to blacks, there have been a few that I've seen and thought "Wow, she's really cute".

So when discussing physical tastes, you still end up generalizing even if you think you're being very specific. I know when I think of my ideal characteristics, it always comes with a very specific sort of girl in mind. However, I've seen plenty of girls that exhibit those same characteristics without looking anything like my mental image.

On the topic of age, well, I've given my own thoughts on that already I guess. Whenever I see a woman nearing her 30's I think "Hm, she might be a better fit for my brother". When I see women bordering 20's, I wonder if they are too young. But considering this thread's general reaction, I'm crazy for thinking that way at all.

I think something else I've left unsaid is: what would her parents think knowing their 18 or 19 year old daughter is dating a guy that's 25? I may not live in Pennsylvania or the deep south, but there are enough people in South Jersey that keep hunting rifles around that I'm afraid of looking down a barrel one day hearing "You treat her like a lady, y'hear?" It's like, no matter what, because of that age gap I've already made a bad first impression.

On the topic of online dating, I've had zero success. I should either remove my account or just completely rewrite my profile (which I've done plenty of times). I just got no care for it at this point, though.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Conversation has moved on a little since i was last here, but I do want to address the issue of generalisations.

Generalisation is just a useful rule of thumb for the early stages in a relationship.

If you're a wrestling fan and are trying to think of a first date it's natural, and harmless, to think to yourself that, as a rule of thumb, not many women are into wrestling. So you invite her to coffee instead.

During said date you admit to being a wrestling fan, and it turns out she likes it, so you go next time. Or she doesn't and you haven't dragged her to 4 hours of guys hitting each other with chairs because you were scared to generalise.

If you still need to generalise after the second date, maybe you need to rethink your conversation skills.

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Most of my dates in the last few years have come through online dating. I always insist on paying on the first date, the conversation usually goes something like.

Me: "It's on me, I'm old fashioned. I always pay for the first date."
Her: "Are you sure? Really, I don't expect that."
Me: "Yes, I'm sure. Tell you what, I will let you pay next time." *laugh*
Her: *laugh* "okay, that sounds fair."
Me: "Awesome, so we will go to {somewhere really expensive}" *laugh*

It gets a nice flow going and it clarifies interest in a follow up. We will usually go Dutch on follow up dates though.

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The whole weight thing is a bit of a minefield. I do like a 'womanly' figure and I won't shut down someone who is a little overweight, but it really boils down to the person. I was crazy about my ex, despite her being a little overweight.

Are they a person I like being around, to the point that extra weight doesn't bug me? That's fine. But I'm not going to pretend to be attracted to someone I'm not. And sorry if this makes me sound bad, but is someone is really overweight, that is very unattractive to me.

I used to date a woman who was a server, and she told me how she either left the bill right between the couple or handed it to the woman, just to watch her customer's reactions.