This is Not the Boogle Memorial Dating Advice/Tips Thread, No

*Legion* wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

1) I feel like I'd be a creeper even if she is legal.

But... but... oww.... my brain, ow!

Oh sure, it's your brain that's in pain.

Luggage wrote:

I am too old and too cynical to "go looking" for a girl.

I don't think you're too old and cynical, you're just fresh out of a long term relationship so you're worn. Give it time, enjoy being single and when the time is right, get back in the game.

Luggage wrote:

Let me please clear up the "has been hurt" assumption, which was also made in the last thread. I've never been broken up with, I always ended my relationships. Sometimes because they thought, they could go window-shop while keeping me on retainer, sometimes because I simply realized that except for regular pole vaulting, we wouldn't have a lot to share.

I don't think it really clears anything up. I didn't say you got dumped. If you're going to claim you were never hurt, I'd say you're in denial.

Nothing else you've said changes the context of my comment. If you haven't figured out the who, why, and what of who you are on a non-professional level, that says a lot more about you than it does women. It says you've made a decision to focus on your career rather than personal life, which is fine, but then you can hardly blame an entire gender for the balance of your own priorities.

I can't really fairly address the next paragraph, because I simply disagree with most of it. But if your complaint is that you can't be expected to have figured everything out, and you wish women would be more understanding of that, did it ever occur to you that they're probably figuring things out for themselves as well, and deserve an equal amount of understanding?

If physically forward, but otherwise uninteresting, guys are having more success with "the ladies" you're attracted to, it also still says a lot more about who you're attracted to than it does women in general (the ones you can't have and want, versus the ones you can have and don't).

You're too old and cynical to go looking, unwilling to consider personal change or putting yourself out there, but somehow want the exact type of woman you find attractive (who you've pointed out seem to be attracted to another type of guy) to come knocking at your door? That seems a bit out of sync.

MrDeVil909 wrote:
Luggage wrote:

I am too old and too cynical to "go looking" for a girl.

I don't think you're too old and cynical, you're just fresh out of a long term relationship so you're worn. Give it time, enjoy being single and when the time is right, get back in the game.

I don't know how I'm coming across, but I agree. Five years ago I dated a girl who absolutely destroyed me. In the process of recovering from that, I committed every comically inept error in dating that you can imagine. Possibly some you can't, and I add to that list on a weekly basis. That involved my figuring a lot of stuff out, like how to live with myself, be happy alone, social etiquette, what I wanted, who I wanted, but even with failure after failure it never occurred to me that "women" were to blame.

Not that I'm some sort of social butterfly now, but I'm content with who I am, and I think it's one of the main reasons I have any success at all with women, even if my personal quirks can still be off-putting.

I just think you need to figure a lot of things out for yourself, and maybe let up on the lady-hate.

Oh man, I just remembered one incident where a girl I went out with a few times told me she just wanted to be friends, and I (drunkenly) agreed that it was a good idea, but we should fool around one last time.

It's been three years and she still won't talk to me.

Oh a more personal note, a friend of mine is leaving town and was having a going away get together at a local bar. I popped in early hoping I could just wish her well and leave (it was late, and I had to work the next day.) The friend I was there to see ended up being late, so I grabbed a beer and started reading a book I brought with me (yes, I'm that guy.)

I ended up getting knocked in the head with a pool cue by a gentleman who didn't realize I was there. Which wasn't fun, but he apologized and replaced my beer, and in the process I started chatting with a group of people when I realized we were all there to see the same person.

One of those girls was someone who remembered me from a party I attended at her apartment. I didn't remember her, unfortunately, because I was immensely drunk, and I was only acquainted with her roommate at the time. So for all intents and purposes, I was meeting this girl for the first time. We talked for a bit, and she mentioned a female friend of hers was visiting, and introduced me. We talked some more, then I apologized for being tired, and that I was going to head out, and she invited me out to dinner on Saturday with herself and the visiting friend. She forgot her phone, but gave me her number.

I'm not worried, or nervous, or slapping myself on the back, but I thought it was interesting. Obviously she remembered me, and even though we didn't talk that long last night I must have made some impression. But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

unntrlaffinity wrote:

I don't think it really clears anything up. I didn't say you got dumped. If you're going to claim you were never hurt, I'd say you're in denial.

Nothing else you've said changes the context of my comment. If you haven't figured out the who, why, and what of who you are on a non-professional level, that says a lot more about you than it does women. It says you've made a decision to focus on your career rather than personal life, which is fine, but then you can hardly blame an entire gender for the balance of your own priorities.

I can't really fairly address the next paragraph, because I simply disagree with most of it. But if your complaint is that you can't be expected to have figured everything out, and you wish women would be more understanding of that, did it ever occur to you that they're probably figuring things out for themselves as well, and deserve an equal amount of understanding?

If physically forward, but otherwise uninteresting, guys are having more success with "the ladies" you're attracted to, it also still says a lot more about who you're attracted to than it does women in general (the ones you can't have and want, versus the ones you can have and don't).

You're too old and cynical to go looking, unwilling to consider personal change or putting yourself out there, but somehow want the exact type of woman you find attractive (who you've pointed out seem to be attracted to another type of guy) to come knocking at your door? That seems a bit out of sync.

I don't know how I'm coming across, but I agree. Five years ago I dated a girl who absolutely destroyed me. In the process of recovering from that, I committed every comically inept error in dating that you can imagine. Possibly some you can't, and I add to that list on a weekly basis. That involved my figuring a lot of stuff out, like how to live with myself, be happy alone, social etiquette, what I wanted, who I wanted, but even with failure after failure it never occurred to me that "women" were to blame.

Not that I'm some sort of social butterfly now, but I'm content with who I am, and I think it's one of the main reasons I have any success at all with women, even if my personal quirks can still be off-putting.

I just think you need to figure a lot of things out for yourself, and maybe let up on the lady-hate.

Oh man, I just remembered one incident where a girl I went out with a few times told me she just wanted to be friends, and I (drunkenly) agreed that it was a good idea, but we should fool around one last time.

It's been three years and she still won't talk to me.

The fact you are insisting to read lady-hate and self-loathing between my lines and the way you talk about your experiences show me, that we are operating of two total different sets of empirical evidence. I think, that there are enough people giving advice here and in the old thread, which is motivated by wishful and overly romantic thinking. I won't contribute to that, but merely offer my two cents, which some people may find pessimistic, I call them realistic. A partner will not change your life, he or she will not make you a better person and being in a relationship will not give your existence any grand meaning.

I won't comment on your interpretation of what women I am attracted to and whatnot, since the entire "when do attitude and feminism become a problem for heterosexual dating" tangent is what got the first thread locked in the first place.

Also, I assumed that this thread wasn't purely targeted for people looking for "that special someone". I like to go and meet new people (men and women alike), talk to them and see how life has been treating them. But I would never consider myself being on the dating market or trying to find someone to date. So should we really narrow this thread down to only providing help for those actively looking for long-term relationships?

unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

I would say yes, that is unusual.

Luggage wrote:

The fact you are insisting to read lady-hate and self-loathing between my lines and the way you talk about your experiences show me, that we are operating of two total different sets of empirical evidence. I think, that there are enough people giving advice here and in the old thread, which is motivated by wishful and overly romantic thinking. I won't contribute to that, but merely offer my two cents, which some people may find pessimistic, I call them realistic. A partner will not change your life, he or she will not make you a better person and being in a relationship will not give your existence any grand meaning.

Also I assumed that this thread wasn't purely targeted for people looking for "that special someone". I like to go and meet new people (men and women alike), talk to them and see how life has been treating them. But I would never consider myself being on the dating market or trying to find someone to date. So should we really narrow this thread down to only providing help for those actively looking for long-term relationships?

I don't think we should narrow it down to anything. I just find it surprising that my reading lady-hate into your words is "between the lines".

When you denigrate the dating habits of an entire gender, and accuse them of being shallow and insecure, it comes across as your having very negative feelings about women.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

Yes. It's clearly a trap, and they are going to rob then murder you. /sarcasm

I know most of the people in here are likely guilty of over-thinking things, but unntrlaffinity, you are over-thinking this. Just go, have fun and gather some data with real meat that you can then rehash in your mind ad-infinitum.

unntrlaffinity wrote:
Luggage wrote:

The fact you are insisting to read lady-hate and self-loathing between my lines and the way you talk about your experiences show me, that we are operating of two total different sets of empirical evidence. I think, that there are enough people giving advice here and in the old thread, which is motivated by wishful and overly romantic thinking. I won't contribute to that, but merely offer my two cents, which some people may find pessimistic, I call them realistic. A partner will not change your life, he or she will not make you a better person and being in a relationship will not give your existence any grand meaning.

Also I assumed that this thread wasn't purely targeted for people looking for "that special someone". I like to go and meet new people (men and women alike), talk to them and see how life has been treating them. But I would never consider myself being on the dating market or trying to find someone to date. So should we really narrow this thread down to only providing help for those actively looking for long-term relationships?

I don't think we should narrow it down to anything. I just find it surprising that my reading lady-hate into your words is "between the lines".

When you denigrate the dating habits of an entire gender, and imply they're shallow and insecure, it comes across as your having very negative feelings about women.

So if I take peacensunshine's post in addition to what I've heard from many female acquaintances and friends over the years, as to why the guy has to make the first step and all the rules like "48h before you call" and "only agree to a date when he asks for the third time", my opinion is less valid than yours? Baffling...

Edit:
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That's the line I draw under our conversation, so this thread has a chance of making it to more than three pages before being shut down by the Great Poobah again.

DanyBoy wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

Yes. It's clearly a trap, and they are going to rob then murder you. /sarcasm

I know most of the people in here are likely guilty of over-thinking things, but unntrlaffinity, you are over-thinking this. Just go, have fun and gather some data with real meat that you can then rehash in your mind ad-infinitum.

Then they need a better mark. Us librarians don't make very much. It's $8 and bus fare for those succubi.

Ha, I'm not obsessing. It should actually be a lot of fun, since the restaurant is in my old neighborhood. I just found it interesting.

Luggage: considering in your reply you use her post to immediately paint all women as insecure, then yes, I'd say your opinion is less valid. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think my replies usually have more to do with how a person can evaluate their own behavior, rather than making sweeping generalizations regarding the gender you're attracted to.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Luggage: considering in your reply you use her post to immediately paint all women as insecure, then yes, I'd say your opinion is less valid. Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, but I think my replies usually have more to do with how a person can evaluate their own behavior, rather than making sweeping generalizations regarding the gender you're attracted to.

Well, I think Luggage's posts may have come across as more bitter than he intends, so I'm not going to say they are invalid. At the end of the day, all human beings are messes of insecurity and neuroses.

But since it's mostly men in this thread we can't really address female insecurities, well I think Mimble did as well as anyone can. But the male insecurities that hold so many of us back are something we can help address.

Is it right, and smart that women don't make the move? Nope, but there's nothing we can do about that, we can just help guys make the move.

Or maybe peacensushine can give a guy a pleasant surprise some time, I seem to recall her being very cute from the pic thread.

I think it all comes down to this: just because you aren't having success in dating, that doesn't mean you are necessarily a bad person or that the opposite gender has something wrong with them. We don't like the idea that a good human being could be destined for failure and loneliness, so we make up myths about dating--both negative and positive. Some wonderful human beings just don't have 'game' or 'chemistry'; some jerks do. It's not fair, but life is not fair, and dating is part of life.

Dating is like...well, to go back to a discussion I had a long time ago with the founder of The Escapist about the French Revolution: American Dating is like a Libertarian Economy: there's no social safety net, the default is at-will arrangements, the market is totally free and unregulated etc. Draw from that what you will.

CheezePavilion wrote:

Dating is like...well, to go back to a discussion I had a long time ago with the founder of The Escapist about the French Revolution

Out of curiosity, are all of your relationships founded on or defined by debate?

MrDeVil909 wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

I would say yes, that is unusual.

It sounds like she wants a date, but doesn't want to go on a date alone with someone she only knows a little bit, so she is bringing her friend along in case *you* are a murdering killer.

That, or she is trying to set up a threesome.

ClockworkHouse wrote:
CheezePavilion wrote:

Dating is like...well, to go back to a discussion I had a long time ago with the founder of The Escapist about the French Revolution

Out of curiosity, are all of your relationships founded on or defined by debate? :)

Only the good ones ;- D

You know, the funny thing is, people often accuse me of arguing semantics. I say I'm just good practice for being in a relationship with a woman.

mudbunny wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

I would say yes, that is unusual.

It sounds like she wants a date, but doesn't want to go on a date alone with someone she only knows a little bit, so she is bringing her friend along in case *you* are a murdering killer.

That, or she is trying to set up a threesome.

I agree, so there are either good consequences, or great ones.

CheezePavilion wrote:

American Dating is like a Libertarian Economy: there's no social safety net, the default is at-will arrangements, the market is totally free and unregulated.

I really like this.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Well, I think Luggage's posts may have come across as more bitter than he intends, so I'm not going to say they are invalid. At the end of the day, all human beings are messes of insecurity and neuroses.

To be fair, I did say less valid, not invalid.

mudbunny wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

But who invites a guy they just met out for dinner with herself and a friend? Is that unusual?

I would say yes, that is unusual.

It sounds like she wants a date, but doesn't want to go on a date alone with someone she only knows a little bit, so she is bringing her friend along in case *you* are a murdering killer.

That, or she is trying to set up a threesome.

Don't tease me that way.

I'm also surprised that based on a ten to fifteen minute conversation where I don't recall being particularly charming and was exhausted, an almost stranger would ask another almost stranger if they'd like to hang out. Especially if the first impression I made was blacking out on her sofa ten months ago.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

To be fair, I did say less valid, not invalid.

Oh, right. Misread on my part. It's late here.

*Legion* wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

1) I feel like I'd be a creeper even if she is legal.

But... but... oww.... my brain, ow!

You know, if guys in their mid-20s didn't date people ~5 years younger than them, I wouldn't exist! Think about THAT, selfish a-hole! :P

So you're saying that I should NOT try getting with this girl so I can prevent creating another you as best as I can?

Luggage wrote:

But try looking at the "ignorance is bliss" fraction of guys out there. A lot of them seem to be doing quite well with the ladies, which I think is partially because it's a damn luxury to not be concerned about the way you come off, if you are stimulating a woman's mind enough or whether you should try to make eye contact now or wait until her girlfriends have left to get a new round of drinks.

I can't quite find the point you're trying to make overall, though at this point it sounds more like a defensive against unntrlaffinity (f*ck that screen name to Hell). This statement here, however, I can agree with as it is pretty much along the lines of "don't over think it". The most success I've ever had was when I wasn't thinking about relationships and such at all, really, and instead just went with the flow.

It's hard for intellectual types not to think, but if we can train ourselves not to make plans and try and act on them, more power.

In terms of the rest of the argument, I think the problem is that the words written carry a very cynical undertone that do suggest a lower opinion of women. It may not come off as such, and I know I myself have a lot of theories on male/female behavior that can look pretty darn sexist. But it doesn't come off so well.

Plus, referencing that you have ended relationships while the girls you were with happened to be window shopping still suggests that you've gotten together with the wrong sorts of women. However, that builds into what unntrlaffinity was saying about people growing and changing, and figuring out who they are and what they want. Hell, even what CheezePavillion linked relates to that. If a girl is window shopping while in a relationship, clearly she isn't dating for the right reasons. Or maybe better to say, her reasons aren't related to romance and love, but potentially comfort or regular sex.

Still, as you mention a lot of girls you know being along the lines of peacensunshine, I've known girls that are more assertive. I've also known girls that get frustrated because the other guy won't make a move and thus they assume he's not interested, even though she's given no clear signs.

I think the best thing to take away is that both sides ought to be assertive, but given my theories on male/female behavior the woman will usually lean towards the less assertive, more subtle hints realm for many of the reasons peacensunshine listed. They want a guy that is decisive and confident, and if he's not willing to put himself out there then he doesn't have traits that she is looking for (or, more accurately, thinks she is looking for).

In personal news, after my totally awesome interview today and round of exercise I went out to lunch with my grandmom. Now, back on Halloween week my niece had a lovely little Kindergarten Halloween parade. While there my grandmom got into a conversation with a young woman that I thought I recognized from my high school art class. After some conversation with my grandmom I was pretty sure it was her.

So my grandmom talks to the young woman later, whom she knows from a local grocery store, and it turns out that, yes, it was the same person, they just weren't sure that I was...well, me. Turns out she is a single mom and all that, yatta yatta, and when my grandmom told me some of this during lunch today I decided to write down my e-mail so she could give it to her, and pondered outloud if maybe she and my sister could set up playdates for their kids and my sister can FINALLY have a single-mom friend that's employed and not a lazy layabout. Y'know, a positive influence.

Knowing my grandmom, she'll relate that to the girl when she gives her my e-mail (which didn't even occur to me until after I dropped my grandmom off at her home). So uh, yeah. I feel like I got three job interviews and am just waiting to see which one hires me.

I don't feel I represent all females. This has just been my experience and perspective. I'm sure there are plenty of assertive females that would prefer to be the chooser and this probably does open up a larger pool of options. I also don't play specific games like "I have to wait 48 hours to call or don't accept at date for that night, etc., and find that kind of silly, especially for for someone at my age. I just, in general, don't put forth a lot of effort at the beginning stages until I know he is serious. In my experiences, if a man is interested in me, he usually lets me know pretty clearly.

And, there are probably a lot of men who don't want a woman that is that passive about it and would rather be with someone who would meet him halfway. I can totally see that. I'm just really independent and don't feel like I NEED a man, so why bother pursuing one? Drives my boyfriend nuts.

peacensunshine wrote:

And, there are probably a lot of men who don't want a woman that is that passive about it and would rather be with someone who would meet him halfway. I can totally see that. I'm just really independent and don't feel like I NEED a man, so why bother pursuing one?

See, something about this really bothers me, and I think a lot of it is rooted in the concept of meeting someone halfway and viewing yourself as independent.

Now, with your own words, saying you are independent and thus don't need a man would suggest that you would be single, but you follow up mentioning your boyfriend. In which case, why would you date him if your perspective of independence is to not need a man? And if that's not your intended meaning, then what does independence have to do with dating or pursuing a relationship?

This is the thing that gets me about people being independent. Just because you like to be your own person that doesn't have to rely on others doesn't mean you can't also long from the company of others. A boyfriend/husband may "traditionally" be viewed as a bread winner, but I think we can all agree that love is very different than someone who takes care of you in a financial sense, or most other senses of the word. It is completely possible for two independent adults to be in a relationship and thus be independent together.

What really makes it bothersome is that you say other guys would like a girlfriend that meets them halfway, and you follow that up by the announcement of your independent nature. Coupled together, it sounds as if your independence means no compromises with him, which basically sounds like it means disaster for any relationship.

I'm likely reading into this all the wrong way, but it honestly just sounds like an unhealthy basis for dating and being in relationships that will inevitably not be rewarding for the other party. Though to give the benefit of the doubt, you DO mention that you're willing to give later on in a relationship, but that does bring to mind what Luggage said about sh*t tests and all.

Now that I think about it, your description kind of reminds me of the misinterpretation (in my opinion, at least) of passages from the Bible concerning a wife's obedience and such. Not that it follows it, but yours sounds like a stark contrast from what many assume is meant for a woman to obey her husband (as for my own thoughts on the matter, I'm not sure what to think. All I know is man was created to balance, not to be equal, and as such I can only imagine male/female genders were intended to balance. How that works out that women would have to obey is something I haven't figured out yet).

I don't NEED a man. I enjoy my partner immensely, but I could live a full, happy life without a partner. He knew this going in...that I wasn't really looking for a relationship, but he wanted me to try it out and see. So far, it is working very, very, well. I agree that just because someone doesn't have to rely on others it doesn't mean they can't benefit from the company of others. I love my family and my partners and I do NEED some sort of family/social network...I just don't need a romantic partner.

As for finances, I currently have a higher degree and make more money than him. Doesn't bother either one of us in the least. We also live in separate houses. And it is true...I did not compromise about what I wanted out of it. He knew this going in. I am actually very giving in the relationship when it comes to day to day giving and compromise a lot in other areas, but I did set the original tone for the relationship, which is that he acts as the pursuer. I don't think I ever consciously set up a "test" for him or anything. If anything, I kept warning him away. I knew he was interested for about four months before we started anything and he had to work hard to convince me to give it a try. He is a very strong person himself and has a more alpha personality. As he WANTED the relationship and I was more neutral about it, he did put forth a lot more effort at the beginning. Now, we are about 50/50 as I am now madly in love with him and want to do everything I can to make him happy. He is an amazing person and I'm SO GLAD he did put forth the effort to get us together.

As I haven't read the bible since I was in junior high, I don't really follow any relationship advice prescribed by scripture (although, I do highly recommend two christian relationship books...The Five Love Languages and Love and Respect.)

Different subject, but something else that bugs me about a lot of women's attitudes about dating is that the kiss of death for a man is him wanting to be in a relationship. Women want men that aren't looking for women as a guy that is looking for a woman appears desperate. Honestly, though, the guys that actually WANT a girlfriend are the ones that will appreciate the relationship the most and be willing to give to make things work, and therefore make the better partners.

Like ccesarano said, a person that doesn't need/really want to be in the relationship is less willing to compromise and this could lead to disaster.

hbi2k wrote:

Those are things to think about when/if it's time to decide whether to ask her out for a second date. They're not reasons not to ask her for a first. Go for it!

Good point. I agree. One of my best friends is married to a former "attention whore" and once she was in a committed relationship, she felt more secure and they have been happily married for 5 years now.

ccesarano wrote:

There are only two problems with her, though. 1) It's well ahead of time for me to make accurate judgments, but based on her behaviors that night and what I've seen of girls up at my College (a geek mecha), she may have enough self-esteem issues that she wants someone to be acknowledging her constantly. Not that she must be the center of attention, but someone must be paying attention and engaging her. But I cannot say this for certain. She could just be incredibly talkative and friendly and happen to have a brain that jumps from one topic to the next. 2) And this is a problem with a couple of the other cute girls from the Bible Study. She looks like she might be like, 18, and all my 25 year old mind can think is "Scott Pilgrim is dating a high schooler".

Those are things to think about when/if it's time to decide whether to ask her out for a second date. They're not reasons not to ask her for a first. Go for it!

As for the whole assertive women / peacesunshine thing, here's how I see it:

If we define the set of romantically unassertive people as U, and the set of romantically assertive people as A, and we assume that U > A, and we further assume that Us are unlikely to hook up with other Us because neither is likely to make the first move on the other, but that As are likely to be able to hook up with either Us or As, then it is in any individual person's best interests romantically to be an A. It's simple math. Gender doesn't enter into it.

If you're honestly happy enough without romance that you don't feel the need to seek it out, that's fine too, and again, gender doesn't enter into it.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Regarding what Mimble says. I have to say, it's happened a few times and having a girl come after me is seriously awesome. *thinks back* Well, most of the time.

Getting chased only sucks when the chaser won't take the hint that you're really, truly not interested. A guy friend of mine in university was being pursued by a girl like this - and she cried her eyes out when he was finally kind of blunt with her about not wanting to date her. He felt so guilty about making her cry, he went out with her anyway, for almost two years.

It didn't work out.

Mimble wrote:
MrDeVil909 wrote:

Regarding what Mimble says. I have to say, it's happened a few times and having a girl come after me is seriously awesome. *thinks back* Well, most of the time.

Getting chased only sucks when the chaser won't take the hint that you're really, truly not interested. A guy friend of mine in university was being pursued by a girl like this - and she cried her eyes out when he was finally kind of blunt with her about not wanting to date her. He felt so guilty about making her cry, he went out with her anyway, for almost two years.

It didn't work out.

Yikes. Two years he will never get back.

And then, when you finally are blunt...they start being hateful.

*Legion* wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

1) I feel like I'd be a creeper even if she is legal.

But... but... oww.... my brain, ow!

You know, if guys in their mid-20s didn't date people ~5 years younger than them, I wouldn't exist! Think about THAT, selfish a-hole! :P

Wait, like would cease to exist? Are you... are you the God of Underage Relationships? Are all those twenty-something people dating high school aged people worshiping you?

I get it now. That's the reason you're so in favor of it. You live only because creepy older people date younger people. It's how you gain power, and the more people who do it the more power you have.

It all makes sense now.

It all makes sense. If you've always been pursued, there wouldn't be a lot of motivation to in turn pursue. Aside from possibly just wanting a change of pace.

And I agree with peacesunshine, there's a lot to be said about not needing a partner. When those individuals who do need a partner end up with someone that shares that need, that's all fine and dandy. But there's a huge difference between needing something, and enjoying, appreciating, or even preferring it. I mean, I could live with only one lung or kidney. But all things being equal, I'd rather keep those suckers close by.

I think once you learn to be happy being alone, you'd be surprised at how often, perhaps counter-intuitively, that you are presented with opportunities to be with someone.

I am at a stage where I don't want to date anyone seriously. If I met someone that made me want to commit, I wouldn't run from it. But I just... haven't. And I'm unwilling to settle or pretend otherwise, even to make someone I care about happy (if it's at the cost of my own happiness.) So when I'm dating someone, if that situation changes, it's normally time to end it. If our needs and goals aren't the same, I'm not going to hold them back from trying to find what they need to be happy elsewhere. But in the meantime, I enjoy the company of friends, and I enjoy dating a girl for as long as we're meeting each other's needs.

Early on when I hadn't dated much, I felt almost obligated to make out with, date, or sleep with any girl who showed interest that I was remotely attracted to, and maybe even some I wasn't. Oh, who are we kidding, I was desperate for every single one. Like someone who's gone hungry most of their life that isn't sure when their next meal will be. Which I think was unfair to both parties, and led to a lot of crossed wires and mixed signals, and a lot of burned bridges. Now I'm very clear up front, and because of that I may let an "opportunity" pass me by, but I'm a lot happier in the long run for it. Even if sometimes a dry spell seems like it'll never end. That way when and if someone does end up hurt, I can at least feel like I did my best to be a stand-up guy. But sometimes things will still go pear-shaped, and that's life.

I'm not sure if that makes me one of those non-compromise people mentioned. I suppose it depends on how you define a relationship.

Edit: I realized the above mathematical formula explained a lot of that with much more brevity, I just didn't get it at first. Nicely done, sir.

You described it really well. I just kind of outgrew needing to be in a relationship out of a fear of being alone or because it was the thing I was supposed to do. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

When I was about 30, I climbed a mountain all alone. I got to the top and there was the most amazing view and I was okay with the fact there was no one to share it with. I liked doing it all by myself. Ever since then, I realized that I like being with me and I really don't care that much whether other people like being with me or not. And, like you said, I have had more quality opportunities since then than I ever did in my early 20s.

It sounds selfish, and maybe it is...but I'm a lot happier being selfish, and honestly, I think I make a BETTER partner. I can be alone..I can entertain myself. He can game/go out/program all he wants and I'm okay with it. When we do get together we really, really enjoy each other....and when we find a game we both like playing together, we really, really, really enjoy each other.

My favorite bit of dating advice is to do what you love and eventually you will find someone else who loves doing the same thing and you will always have that in common. I hear women all the time say that they can't meet quality men. You ask them their hobbies and they really don't have any. Who wants to be with someone that has no interests of their own? That would be a major turn of to me in a man....I wouldn't want him just glomming on to my interests. Be the type of person you would want to date.

hbi2k wrote:

If we define the set of romantically unassertive people as U, and the set of romantically assertive people as A, and we assume that U > A, and we further assume that Us are unlikely to hook up with other Us because neither is likely to make the first move on the other, but that As are likely to be able to hook up with either Us or As, then it is in any individual person's best interests romantically to be an A. It's simple math. Gender doesn't enter into it.

As a mathematician, I approve of this paragraph.

Also, as a U, you have to wait for two things - you have to wait for someone to decide they want a relationship with you, and for that someone to decide they want to make the move. And you never know whether that someone is an A or a U, so you don't know if that move will ever be made or if you'll both just be waiting for the other. As an A you can make the move yourself, and then they just have to decide whether they want the relationship or not.

Just remember, if U wants a relationship, then U needs an A partner, because there can't be a relationship with two of U.