Hopefully, although its hard to be optimistic anymore, you guys will get to see me come back and talk about how things are getting better. I want control of my mind.
Bump.
Just checking on teh Zed man. You're on my xbox friends list, and it says you haven't logged on since 10/31. You were playing Fable III before that, so just checking on you.
Zedian wrote:Hopefully, although its hard to be optimistic anymore, you guys will get to see me come back and talk about how things are getting better. I want control of my mind.
Bump.
Just checking on teh Zed man. You're on my xbox friends list, and it says you haven't logged on since 10/31. You were playing Fable III before that, so just checking on you.
I didn't realize that game was so dangerous. Thanks for the warning.
Continued thoughts and best wishes for you, Zed. Might not do any direct help, but it doesn't hurt me to try!
Quick comment about medication. I don't have experience with medication. I have heard, however, that if it's a case of depression arising as you get older, it is often helpful to think of medication as returning you to your "real" self from back then. Or at least getting closer to that self. Rather than thinking of it as it altering who you are now, i.e. I'm not myself if I take medication. Perhaps you're much closer to who you really are, the person you remember from before the illness hit, even if there are some side effects or it doesn't "fix" things 100%.
All of this is based off a great Speaking of Faith episode with Parker Palmer I've listened to over and over. But I won't recommend it or link it here, because it's actually about having come out of depression mostly or all the way. It probably wouldn't be very helpful for someone in the midst of depression.
Hi Zedian, and welcome to the club.
I too suffer from chronic clinical depression and at have written pretty much the post you've written on another forum, at around about the same age you are now.
I'm 37 now and I want to tell you so much about how I know exactly how you feel, what you're currently going through and - most importantly - how it can and will get better. I just don't have the time right now. Here's what I can tell you.
- "I dont' want to feel this way any more" is exactly the right place to be in right now. This is where it starts getting better.
- It will get bad before it gets good, but you've just done the hardest thing you will ever have to do to get better. It gets easier from here.
- It may not ever completely go away, but you can in a fairly short space of time get it to where it no longer dominates your life.
- I strongly recommend therapy rather than medication. I was a textbook medication case but have always refused it - determined to understand my own mind and how to live in it, rather than mask it with drugs.
- You won't necessarily find the therapy &/or therapist that works for you first time out. Keep looking. You're looking for a partner to help you explore your mind. Think of it like an RPG and keep trying until you find a party member you can really make progress with.
- As you can see from this thread, there are many of us about. You can always - and I mean always - PM me for advice or to talk about stuff that's going on.
- Sometimes it feels like climbing a mountain and you'll just wish someone would carry you, but they can't. You're going to do this on your own, and you're going to succeed. And let me tell you, the view once you get above that cloud cover is f*cking amazing
All strength to you.
I recommend Zoloft, it's like a nectar from the teat of a goddess.
I recommend Zoloft, it's like a nectar from the teat of a goddess.
I came here to post this as well. That shit has saved my life.
I started out as a depressed person who thought he was "just being a puss" and "needed to snap out of it." My wife eventually demanded I go to a psychologist, so I reluctantly did. (I've gone to a couple in the past, but they sucked... more on that in a min.) After a while of going to see my psych, she eventually said that I should try some medication. "Nah," I said, "That's what people do when they're weak, and that's not me." After more time of not getting better, I finally agreed to give it a try. Holy crap, what a difference. Can you remember the last time you actually sat back and said "what a great day. I'm glad to be alive and enjoying things."? I hadn't had a day like that since I was, like 20 (I'm 34 now). A few weeks on the magic goddess teat and I was having those somewhat frequently. I'm not in some permanent cloud of bliss, or anything like that. I get happy and sad, and am otherwise... well, normal. That's all I can say, I feel like I "should" feel. I was concerned about medication making me dull, cloudy, or disaffected; I actually feel more now than I ever did, but in a good way.
As for psychologists, make sure you find one who's actually interested in helping people through their expertise; I'd posit that the vast majority of psychologists get into that field to try to discover themselves rather than help people. You don't want one of those, they won't help.
Am I bummed that I'm going to be on medication for the foreseeable future, maybe even the rest of my life? A little, but the pros WAY outweigh the cons. Zed, you've already acknowledged that you need to fix something; that's the hardest and most important step. The rest is details and trial-and-error. I have no doubt you'll find a better place if you continue to want to look.
Out of all the things on here, exercise is one thing that I have done successfully for long periods of time in the past. Often around 4 to 5 days a week, 30-45 minutes each time. Sometimes I even had a trainer.
I'm glad so many of you wrote about medication and especially for the people who have experienced this. I think in a way none of my friends do, it is one of the things they like about me the most, one of the things I like the most. I believe that pattern of unique thinking was encouraged by depression, as well as my music and anything creative. So I told my psychologist about my fears of becoming a robot and losing those parts of me, and he said those are completely good reservations.
There are different meds and you might have to try to a few to find out which work for you. I think people who worry that meds might fundamentally change their personality are similar to addicts who worry they won't be creative or have fun without drugs or alcohol. People get stuck in patterns and think changing those patterns will change who they are, but that's not what defines you. Your current situation has had influence in who you are and why you do things, but you can probably do those things better without the negatives that come from struggling with depression. If you have other conditions along with depression (like I have anxiety issues which influenced my depression), the meds can be used to help you out of the depression while you figure the rest out and then the meds can be stopped
I went through some depression myself, not as severe as yours sounds, but bad enough that I finally realized I needed some help.
Getting help from a psychiatrist was the best money I've ever spent on myself. It took awhile to get to the core issues that were dragging me down and I was amazed at how much lighter I felt when I started just getting all that stuff out.
I learned how to cope better when those days hit (and you'll still feel like ten tonnes of crap some days) and even to recognize when they were brewing - so I finally felt I had some choice, some wiggle-room to stop myself from falling into that black hole.
I said no to meds (my psychiatrist said if I felt I wanted/needed them, she'd give them to me, but she preferred not to). I'm glad I didn't take any, but that's me. You should absolutely try them if you feel it would help you.
If ever you feel like chatting, pm me anytime - we're all here for you and most of us know just how bad depression sucks. You aren't alone in this.
Just got back from my regular Saturday session with my psychologist. I've realised that in 5 years I've come from a situation almost identical to the OP, to feeling like I've got this sorted now.
It's still there - and seeing that Lukas Moodysson film last night was a really bad idea - but it doesn't rule me any more.
I decided 5-6 years ago "I don't want to feel like this any more" and now I don't.
Let me say this about the medication. If you won't take anesthetics because they "change your body" and "only mask the pain", then don't try the SSRIs. You won't like them. But for people who don't like pain, anesthetics make the pain go away. Sometimes the side effects are weird, so you try different ones and different dosages until something fits you with very few side issues. (Yeah, I am stretching the metaphor here, but bear with me.)
A lot of people have stereotypes of "what this stuff will do to my mind" which are based on very early meds such as lithium. That stuff affected your entire personality and really dulled you down; I have had friends and relatives on it in the past. It's something to avoid in large doses.
But SSRIs, however they work, target the problem feelings quite well while leaving the rest intact. I can't stress this more. The mood swings will be damped, the cycling thoughts will mostly stop, the OCD repetitions will decline greatly. And there are a number to try to help prevent annoying side effects. The worst I have is a bit of tiredness.
SSRIs are like local anesthetics for your mind pain. It's not like taking opium and spacing out drooling all day. It's like getting a local to prepare you for a minor surgery. You'll be *shocked* at the change in quality of life and the lack of change to your mental abilities when you find the right one.
Another way to look at it is that you can't be at all sure that your depression is making you more creative. What if it's simply damping down the creativity, and you only notice it when the top of a very creative mountain of thought manages to penetrate your dark cloud? It would suck to conclude that that's the best you can do and avoid something that can wash the cloud out of the air entirely.
This is a fascinating thread and I commend all those who are dealing with, have dealt with and providing such good solid advice!
My wife is a therapist and I have to say I'm shocked at the number of poor psychologists / therapists out there- sometimes a whole clinic will be quite poor in quality. My only addition to this thread is make sure you don't assume that all therapists are good at what they do because they have their degree, keep looking until you find one that is excellent and is the right match for you.
All good advice.
I have depression. Only really came to the front for me with the arrival of my two kids. The sleep deprivation was the final straw. I was at work, not wanting to be there, and when I got home to a house full of love, I just wanted to turn back around and go back to work (where I wanted to then come home again).
I realised this 'wasn't right'. I also identify with just about EVERYTHING written here. The Goodger Collective is one of good and true people. Embrace them, they are here to help. This can be a safe place.
Don't be afraid of medication, and don't be afraid to change it too (with medical advice of course). As someone posted, different meds for different brains.
I was on Zoloft for four weeks, and it seriously messed me up. Couldn't clear the sleep fog until noon, felt like a zombie, was taking more coffee than I should to get me out of it, then not being able to sleep because of it, put me straight back to square one. Went back and saw my GP, transitioned to Lovan, and it really feels like I'm not on anything (from a side effect point of view) but it's really taken the edge off the darkness for me.
I'm a Graphic Designer by profession, and it HASN'T taken the edge off my creativity at all. If anything it's helped me get back to my A game, because the apathy has taken a back seat too.
I'm not taking it in isolation either. I see my therapist once a week. the drugs act as a 'stabilising agent' so I can wade through all the crap that's made me this way without sending me suicidal. The way we're approaching it is, medicate, analysye, find solutions, return to normal, then wean off the drugs.
I think anti-depressants only become an issue when people use 'just that' to hopefully cure them.
It's hard living with the Black Dog, but with time I hope to at least stop mine peeing all over the rug (because it does so tie the room together) and I can go back to actually begin to have something approaching 'normal'.
I'm glad no-one has told you to 'just go and fix yourself' as you were worried in your initial post. The brain is big a ball of twine to try and unravel all by yourself. Find a therapist you feel comfortable with, and hand yourself over to them. It's what they do, and if you're lucky, they do it well.
I've waffled on enough. As the others said, PM if you need it, or post. We're here.
Was just thinking about you, Zedian, and this thread and wondering how things are going.
Was just thinking about you, Zedian, and this thread and wondering how things are going.
+1
Hope everything is as 'OK' as it can be for you. Even if you don't feel up to posting a response, we're still thinking about you. I know I had still have days were the mere thought of doing anything is the biggest chore in the world.
Just a note that it's nice to go to a first therapy appointment, spill your guts for 50 minutes, and have the therapist say "You've really got a lot to be sad about." At least I know I'm not crazy for falling to pieces.
Just a note that it's nice to go to a first therapy appointment, spill your guts for 50 minutes, and have the therapist say "You've really got a lot to be sad about." At least I know I'm not crazy for falling to pieces. :)
ABSOLUTELY this.
I have never felt more relieved than when I kept hearing the therapist exclaim 'my goodness' at every second point I made in that initial appraisal. I never realised how important validation from a complete stranger was, or how much of a relief it was.
Keep at it, the second session is usually the hardest. It's the first time (for me) that the enormity of my depression hit, and it really did feel like someone had pulled the rug out from under me. I spent the week following that second session feeling SO overwhelmed I almost didn't make it to the next one. I told my therapist this, and they agreed that most people stop returning after that second session.
After the elation/relief of the first one, to then be overcome in the second, it's a big dip in the rollercoaster road to recovery.
Hang in there, and best of luck. Therapy is THE BEST thing I've ever done for myself.
I've felt super depressed for over a year but as my shrink says i'm not suffering from depression (the clinical term) but from bereavement. Something that might help you is writing down all of the things that you're not happy with then group them in things you can change, things you cannot change and then fo further and break the list you can change into long, medium and short term changes. You mentioned you have image issues: is that due to weight control or something else? I've found that weight lifting has been super helpful for me. I am not really ready to go out and be social or be with other people (I want to but get cold feet) but going to the gym is something you can do on your own and I bet you feel better after it.
If you go to a shrink make sure you get on with them well enough. It took me four different trips before I found one who I liked. Also, try going try going to a group. That is what I do (mine is for widowers). it is a lot easier for some people to participate if they know they aren't alone. Sitting in an office by yourself and telling someone you don't know things can be a little scary.
Mimble wrote:Was just thinking about you, Zedian, and this thread and wondering how things are going.
+1
Hope everything is as 'OK' as it can be for you. Even if you don't feel up to posting a response, we're still thinking about you. I know I
hadstill have days were the mere thought of doing anything is the biggest chore in the world.
+2
Does any of the research on neuroplasticity indicate that you can, in fact, "fix yourself" ? (barring circumstances like damaged dopamine receptors, or similar medical conditions I see commonly mentioned in these threads) I'm not saying that you should be able to find the way yourself instinctively. That's the role of medical professionals, like everyone says here; But I'd like to advocate that, even though you may not instinctively know how to, you CAN "fix yourself" (but not by yourself).
Gosh, I hope that doesn't sound like I'm ringing in with the "just will yourself out of it" crowd. That's not what I'm intending here. I'm advocating for believing that the human machine is incredible in all of its adaptability, and you are one of those human machines. Believing in your own ability to come out of it, with or without help, just that the possibility is there has to be (read, speculative on may part) part of the equation.
Oh, and I also say, stay away from alcohol. I like it, too much, but about a day and a half after a party, I get depressed. Like clockwork. It takes me about three weeks of abstenance to stop wanting a drink. Society makes this hard to do. I'm not even talking about fall down drunk. I mean four or five drinks over an evening out with friends. Just knowing that depressed individuals commonly turn to the immediate euphoria side effect of alcohol scares me, based on my miniscule micro experience with depression.
The problem is I don't know how to know if I have a good one or not. I don't know how long it should be before I start seeing some change. I know I've met with him 3 times and am going to get some test results next time, but I haven't really gotten any help so far. So it is a bit frustrating.
I hope your psychologist comes through his surgery OK!
I didn't see results right away - those took time because the first few sessions I mostly felt like an idiot for needing to be there. I was trying to appear normal - like I didn't need help at all - and downplaying my problems because they suddenly seemed frivolous somehow. My psychiatrist told me off very nicely and said that the only problems I needed to worry on were mine, and that they were plenty important and serious since they were happening to me and affecting me negatively.
It takes time to really open up and just say all the things you never thought should even be worthy of your notice, never mind worry. It took about two months of regular sessions to finally feel like I was moving forward, but the day I walked out of there feeling kind of happy and hopeful was an amazing day that made all the whining, hiding, crying and fear totally worth it. I felt like I'd just kicked some major butt - it was awesome.
Then I kept going back to see how I could feel that way more often.
As for knowing whether or not you've got a good one... For me, a "good one" meant I felt heard - not just that I was a job, but that she saw me as a human being in pain and wanted to help me sort stuff out - but she never coddled me, or protected me from myself either. She simply made it OK for me to feel the way I felt, say anything I wanted or needed to say - even when I thought I sounded like an awful, selfish, whiny, useless, pain in the ass - and then we dealt with things as they needed to be dealt with.
She never took notes as I spoke either, so it was a lot like hanging out with a really awesome friend whom you didn't have to see socially and think, "Oh god, she knows all this stuff about me."
She was (and is, I assume) practical, funny, honest, sympathetic, wise and caring. I still hear her voice in my head when I'm having one of those days and that usually sets me on my way to dealing with my own stuff and dealing with it pretty well too!
I guess you need to feel comfortable with the guy you're talking to - and it might take a few sessions to feel like that - one you've got any sort of comfort level and stop censoring (if you do that - I did, so maybe I'm projecting here) you'll be amazed at how much crap just tumbles out.
If after a few more sessions you still feel like you're at a stand still - move on to a new one. You owe that to yourself, and you owe the guy you've already seen absolutely nothing. That was the other thing mine said, "If I'm not the right fit for you, you should feel perfectly OK about leaving. Just because you told me some personal stuff, doesn't mean you owe me your loyalty. You have to put yourself first."
I guess you need to feel comfortable with the guy you're talking to - and it might take a few sessions to feel like that - one you've got any sort of comfort level and stop censoring (if you do that - I did, so maybe I'm projecting here) you'll be amazed at how much crap just tumbles out.
If after a few more sessions you still feel like you're at a stand still - move on to a new one. You owe that to yourself, and you owe the guy you've already seen absolutely nothing. That was the other thing mine said, "If I'm not the right fit for you, you should feel perfectly OK about leaving. Just because you told me some personal stuff, doesn't mean you owe me your loyalty. You have to put yourself first."
Great advice. Mine told me the same thing. The appraisal was for them to see if they 'could' help me, and to ensure I felt comfortable 'unloading' with them.
I now feel like I can trust them with anything, during my session I completely hand over to them, and we concentrate on working through the rough stuff. For me, having that feeling of non-judgemental 'safety' is key in helping me get through this. Hope you can find that same level of comfort too.
Hang in there
I'd say give it about a month to really know, and make sure you get input from the folks around you who you can count to both care and be up front and honest with you. I'll echo what Mimble said about finding a good doc; it's all about how they act towards you, the level of comfort you get from being around them and talking to them. Because if you're not comfortable talking to them, or you're feeling like they're not attentive enough, then nothing else really matters from their level of knowledge. That's really something I'd think they have to build patient by patient as they come to an understanding of the particulars of your situation.
Regardless of all of that, I too wish you the best of luck. Depression is definitely difficult to deal with, but it *can* be overcome. That's really key I think; knowing that there really is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck, Zed. I have always enjoyed the various times over the years that we have played online together, few as they may be.
I know nothing about all this, really, except that getting on the right meds absolutely transformed a member of my extended family, in a very good way. Her issues had fairly destroyed some of her relationships, but the meds, to the best of my knowledge, completely cured her.
Again, I know nothing about it, but you've got people at both extremes saying "all meds, all the time" and "no meds, ever". Both seem uncomfortably one size fits all to me. I would probably try and find help from someone who wants to find the right solution for you.
Does any of the research on neuroplasticity indicate that you can, in fact, "fix yourself" ? (barring circumstances like damaged dopamine receptors, or similar medical conditions I see commonly mentioned in these threads) I'm not saying that you should be able to find the way yourself instinctively. That's the role of medical professionals, like everyone says here; But I'd like to advocate that, even though you may not instinctively know how to, you CAN "fix yourself" (but not by yourself).
Yes, "you can fix yourself, but not by yourself" Is pretty much the takeaway message.
Depression is a mental and emotional habit, for want of a better description. You fall into patterns of thought and behaviour that you can't get yourself back out of again because the ruts run too deep. That's the neuroplasticity thing. Depression in particular blocks good feelings (anhedonia) and as such leads you to make false assumptions about what is good for you and what is bad. Both psychotherapy and drug therapy work to help break out of the habit by either helping you explore the habits from an external perspective (psychotherapy) or masking the symptoms which feed you false information (drug therapy).
Watched a recent TV documentary on schizophrenics. They were able to remit symptoms by conditioning the brains of patients using... wait for it... Video Games! Specifically designed ones albeit. It was an evidence of neuroplasticity in another mental illness.
I buy into the mental and emotional habit arguement, for me. I've felt it, and made corrections myself (at least I think I corrected them, or I'm still working on it) but again, I can sit down and think about how I'm thinking, what I'm saying to myself in my head, and how I'm acting. I'm not saying someone, anyone, or everyone can or should be able to do that. Least of all someone who has a medical condition which is the root of depression.
I tend to be in the (as cheesy as reference as it is) Anthony Robbins school of - make of list of ten goals no matter how big or how small (which will benefit your life, not "complete super mario with fireflower run for the whole first level") Then list ten things you can do toward each of those, and you have 100 things that you can busy yourself with. You won't have time to be depressed. ...again, not offered as a solution for clinically depressed people but for healthy people in a funk.
At the risk of sounding snippy it's important to recognise there is a massive gulf between chronic depression and a "funk". A lot of people have friends or family who are clinically depressed and think they can fix it if they try and "cheer them up". You can't do that any more than you can fix someone's dysentery with a good meal. I think the general conflation of the two is a big component of the stigma that often surrounds it.
There's 2 major differences between a funk and Big D Depression. The first is severity: Depression is utterly debilitating. It's emotionally closer to consuming grief. You can push through it a little but it consumes ever waking moment. The second is causes. With grief you know what caused it - a breakup, a death, a piece of lifechanging bad news - depression comes from no immediately identifiable cause. Sometimes it's medical, often it's simply a case of a part of your emotional development going a bit buggy as you grew up so some simple issues in your life are disproportionately painful. As with most of these things it's probably a big slice of both.
Treat your friends and family with depression like everyone they love just died. They're not going to make a list and snap out of it. It's gonna take time and it's gonna take work. Gently encourage them forward and give them loads of positive reinforcement.
I was trying to make clear that I appreciate the difference so that I nobody had to be snippy at me. Of course I think I was doing that over several posts, so skimming will make me look like more of an ass that I usually do.
I will try to do better, and will try to stop de-valuing a thread about Big D depression with my lack of insight.
No sarcasm intended. I realize what a grain of sand on the scale, my opinion on this topic represents.
Zedian, I hope you are feeling better and building a road to recovery. I share your pain.
I have struggled with depression for ten years and I am currently working on my own recovery. With the economy crashing, being laid off from two jobs in 18 months and the resulting stress on my marriage and family... I've plunged fully and completely into a mid life crisis. I visited a handful of therapists before I chose to move forward with one and it's been quite a journey.
In my particular case, I had accumulated a lot of emotional baggage. Being laid off twice in a short period of time has utterly torched my confidence. My wife and I have slowly drifted apart. My circle of friends had changed radically. Hell, I was even carrying around crap from a failed relationship in college. Basically, I often feel like I'm disconnected from others. It's almost like I'm an observer sitting 10ft above a room full of people.
Communication is a huge pathway out of the grasp of depression. On the days where the affliction is most crippling, it helps just to let it out. Connect with another human and just shovel the crap out. Therapy.
The single most important piece of advice that my therapist has drilled into my head is to be in the moment. Let all of the things that plague your mind go. It is hard as hell, I admit it.
I struggle daily to find work, but I've built a routine that keeps it from consuming all of my time.
I try to regularly connect with someone in person at least twice a week. Friends, family, therapist... whomever it is - force yourself to connect.
Let the crap go. Everyone experiences up and downs - those events make you unique. No one event or characteristic solely defines you. This is a huge one for me. I'm a control freak and I've dug my heels in as my life has changed. I still struggle with this very often.
As I read this, it's feeling a bit preachy. I'm not trying to talk at you, I'd hope to talk with you.
As they say, all treks begin with that first step. You've made the most important move in recognizing your situation and asking for help.
It isn't easy, nor is it an immediate fix.
However, I hope you recognize that you are not alone. There are many people in this community, whom you may or may not know, that are pulling for you.
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