Does anyone really believe Obama is better at hiding things than Bush?
Well, the fact that this thread exists and this is a topic being discussed, suggests that Obama is pretty horrible at hiding distasteful realities of government.
I would be pretty sure similar shenanigans happened under all previous presidents and didn't get out in the open.
Well, the "it's the tip of the iceberg" argument assumes that there's much more hidden than we see today.
The "we'll scale back this sort of thing when we're no longer in war" argument doesn't really hold much water with me. I don't think Islamic Terrorism is going anywhere anytime soon. Even if we end our current combat mission in Afghanistan, there will still be terrorists plotting against us, thus an excuse to keep using this power.
A bill just passed the House which expands the people who must be notified of highly classified operations from the "Gang of Eight" to the entirety of the intelligence committees. Seems like a start.
Well, the fact that this thread exists and this is a topic being discussed, suggests that Obama is pretty horrible at hiding distasteful realities of government.
I'm not sure this *was* hidden: how did this guy's father find out his son was on the list in the first place? The claim (one of four claims) by the government is that in order for the government to prove he belongs on the list, they would have to divulge state secrets. I think that's the secret part--exactly why he's on the list (I think they made some stuff public like Underpants Bomber named him as the one who ordered that operation or something) is what is being kept secret--I don't think there's been any attempt to hide anything we're discussing in this thread. The only thing my poking around reveals is that maybe this list was part of what came out in the Wikileaks incident?
I found this:
Which suggest the list itself and who is on it isn't being kept secret.
I would be pretty sure similar shenanigans happened under all previous presidents and didn't get out in the open.
It didn't involve an American citizen, but not only was it out in the open, the only controversy I can remember it causing was whether it was an attempt to Wag the Dog.
Which suggest the list itself and who is on it isn't being kept secret.
O we're pretty clear when you're on the "We're going to f*cking murder you" list. If you have any doubts, sit outside a public place for a few hours then walk slowly home. If you don't get shot at, bombed or kidnapped, you're probably not on the list. If this guy would just come outside for awhile, we'd clear the whole confusion up.
Which suggest the list itself and who is on it isn't being kept secret.O we're pretty clear when you're on the "We're going to f*cking murder you" list. If you have any doubts, sit outside a public place for a few hours then walk slowly home. If you don't get shot at, bombed or kidnapped, you're probably not on the list. If this guy would just come outside for awhile, we'd clear the whole confusion up.
Heh--you made me think the list should be published in the form of a rap video. You've also reminded me of this:
Heh--you made me think the list should be published in the form of a rap video. You've also reminded me of this:
We'll stick to confidential memos, that way it's bound to be published on the internet.
Detailed response Lobster. I can't even pick apart your argument because I actually don't disagree. Ideally I would like a world where politicians don't make choices that would involve in a person's death. And I'm also distrustful of politicians.
Let's explain my word choice though. :p Okay, killing someone isn't physically 'hard.' Put a bullet in him and vanish into the crowd. But I'm working under the (possibly erroneous) assumption that your president isn't a sociopath and won't flippantly order someone's death. The choice of that course of action can't be easy. The morally easy choice would be to get the Yemeni authorities to hand the guy over, but I'm guessing it won't be an easy course of action to take.
And 'greater good' is always a slippery concept. The people who decide what that is are usually the people we can trust the least, but what can you do? Ultimately I think the problem here is that this has entered the public sphere. It may be a distasteful thing, but similar actions are probably taken every day.
I'm pretty cynical myself, but here it's the accused hiding behind the skirts of another country that arouses that the most. Really, he could very publicly hand himself over and use every legal method to keep his trial in the open, but he chooses not to. Instead he looks all innocent while making the US government bear the burden of being the moral party. It makes me suspicious.
Sorry about the verbosity, MrDeVil. Something I'm working on, along with constantly editing my crap so it's slightly less crappy.
I don't disagree with you either. My concern was that "making hard choices for the greater good" sounds like a political talking point akin to "fighting to defend our freedom (by invading a country on the other side of the planet)."
Nothing wrong with verbosity if you are using it to clarify your point. Yeah I realise what I said can be seen as political snake-speak, but my intent was just to say it in the easiest way possible. I'm an African, hi-falutin' rhetoric is beyond me.
One thing I can be sure about in this debate? I'm glad I will never need to make any choices like this.
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