I need some advice

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Whenever your sibling decides, "hey, I need to have this big important argument with my brother about Bayonetta", silently place the ballcap on your head.

Eventually, he'll tire with it and stop bringing up the subject.

Repeat the line "there's nothing funny about a murder of douchebags" whenever he talks to you.

The great ethical minds of human history often encountered differing views, but you don't hear many stories about Siddhartha, Socrates or Jesus getting into a screaming match. With that in mind, I offer a few bits of advice:

1) Points of view aren't things to be proven or disproven. Other perspectives may be limited or see things less clearly than yours, but that does not invalidate the perspective. If you are looking for different things, you will undoubtedly see things differently, and there's nothing inherently wrong about that. It's bootless to insist that one point of view is "wrong" or "right." Everyone has blind spots, and it's wrong to think someone's stupid, wrong or a douche for not being able to see theirs.

2) If you like feeling more mature, you might be interested in reading up on theories of moral development. (I'm partial to Piaget and Kohlberg.) You may well be more morally mature than your brother, so you can always choose to stew in that self-satisfaction rather than argue. You should also keep in mind that you're both still fairly young, and have plenty of time left to learn more about morality and ethics.

3) If you still really want to argue with your brother until he lies beaten on the field, his women and children helpless before the barbarian onslaught of your mind, you should look into learning some formal debate skills. Many a seemingly impenetrable argument can be brought low by careful mapping, analysis and rebuttal.

I hope that helps. Do your best to remain calm, and to approach others with a soft heart.

wordsmythe wrote:

3) If you still really want to argue with your brother until he lies beaten on the field, his women and children helpless before the barbarian onslaught of your mind, you should look into learning some formal debate skills. Many a seemingly impenetrable argument can be brought low by careful mapping, analysis and rebuttal.

Note: this is probably a terrible idea. You guys are teenagers; never in the history of the spoken word has a teenager who thought he was right (or just felt like having an argument) been brought quivering to his knees by a hailstorm of flawless logic.

Your brother will never "lie beaten on the field", regardless of what you say, until you both reach a point where debating is actually what you're doing (rather than arguing). Ain't gonna happen. Nut up and move on.

EDIT: Made me think of this:

An episode of Frasier wrote:

Frasier: Oh, well, they won't be for much longer. I've decided it's
time to fight back. I was up to all hours last night crafting
my response to those two idiots. I believe I have arrived at
a masterful rebuttal.
Martin: I'm not sure you want to call it your reBUTTal.

Frasier and Niles cross to the table where quotations books are laid
across the table along with Frasier's speech.

Niles: I see your "Bartlett's" is out. You're not pulling any
punches!
Frasier: Hardly. I go in swinging with La Rochéfoucauld: "If we had no
faults of our own, we would not take so much pleasure in
noticing those of others."
Niles: [boxing-match style] Ouch!
Frasier: And when I've knocked them reeling, I go in with a jab of
Dorothy Parker: "Wit has truth in it, wise-cracking is
merely calisthenics with words."
Niles: Pow!
Frasier: And when they're bloody and against the ropes, I go in with
the kill - [shadow-boxing] Twain, Wilde, Twain, Twain,
Mencken!
Niles: It's not a fight, it's an execution!

As they laugh and caper enthusiastically, Martin comes over to the
table.

Martin: You know Frasier, if you go and read that on the air you're
going to set yourself up for a year of abuse. You know, this
kind of thing is probably the reason why these guys started
picking on you in the first place.
Frasier: All right, Dad, what exactly are you saying? That I somehow
managed to bring all this misery on myself?
Martin: No, I'm not saying that, just... well, have you ever wondered
why these bullies have always kind of zeroed in on you two?
Niles: No, we don't wonder why, we know the reason:
Frasier/Niles: Jealousy!
Martin: Okay, so there's a little bit of that too. But you know, you
kinda give people the impression that you're... above them.
Frasier: Pish-tosh!
Niles: Poppycock!

Daphne enters in her gown.

Niles: Morning, Daphne.
Frasier: Oh, Daphne, do you think we're snobby, superior and
condescending?
Daphne: That's it! I'm getting my door sound-proofed.

She goes to the kitchen.

Martin: See what I mean? People think you're stuffy. You know, with
your opera parties, and your wine parties, and your seasoned
crepe pans.
Frasier: In my defense, Niles is the only one who has ever seasoned his
crepe pans.
Niles: Which is the precisely why I've had the same set since the
ninth grade, thank you very much.
Martin: My point is, you guys could never resist putting on airs.
Even when you were in junior high, you used to love that
TV program, "The Avengers." You used to run all over the
neighborhood pretending you were that guy with the umbrella...
Steve.
Frasier: Steed!
Niles: [rolls his eyes] Dad!
Frasier: There were worse role models. Steed was dapper and witty.
When anyone tried to give him grief, he gave them a sound
thrashing with the umbrella.
Martin: Well, that's great, admire him if you want. But did you have
to run through the neighborhood in bowler hats? I mean,
you were just begging to get beat up.
Frasier: Come to think of it, it was rather a rough summer that year,
wasn't it?
Niles: I remember getting a chin strap so the bowler wouldn't fall
off when I ran.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

3) If you still really want to argue with your brother until he lies beaten on the field, his women and children helpless before the barbarian onslaught of your mind, you should look into learning some formal debate skills. Many a seemingly impenetrable argument can be brought low by careful mapping, analysis and rebuttal.

Note: this is probably a terrible idea. You guys are teenagers; never in the history of the spoken word has a teenager who thought he was right (or just felt like having an argument) been brought quivering to his knees by a hailstorm of flawless logic.

Your brother will never "lie beaten on the field", regardless of what you say, until you both reach a point where debating is actually what you're doing (rather than arguing). Ain't gonna happen. Nut up and move on.

I don't know, when I was 17, I convinced my 15-year-old brother that God didn't exist, using only the Bible, my headache, and the sort of hand-waving only debate team can teach. But that was more stunning rhetoric than flawless logic.

Anyway, such a combative stance is probably not the right way to go.

Interestingly, 17 was when I stopped listening to so much angry, political punk rock and started reading Hesse and the Tao te Ching.

wordsmythe wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

3) If you still really want to argue with your brother until he lies beaten on the field, his women and children helpless before the barbarian onslaught of your mind, you should look into learning some formal debate skills. Many a seemingly impenetrable argument can be brought low by careful mapping, analysis and rebuttal.

Note: this is probably a terrible idea. You guys are teenagers; never in the history of the spoken word has a teenager who thought he was right (or just felt like having an argument) been brought quivering to his knees by a hailstorm of flawless logic.

Your brother will never "lie beaten on the field", regardless of what you say, until you both reach a point where debating is actually what you're doing (rather than arguing). Ain't gonna happen. Nut up and move on.

I don't know, when I was 17, I convinced my 15-year-old brother that God didn't exist, using only the Bible, my headache, and the sort of hand-waving only debate team can teach. But that was more stunning rhetoric than flawless logic.

Anyway, such a combative stance is probably not the right way to go.

Interestingly, 17 was when I stopped listening to so much angry, political punk rock and started reading Hesse and the Tao te Ching.

In fairness, it's kind of hard to read the Bible and NOT come away thinking that god doesn't exist.

Paleocon wrote:

In fairness, it's kind of hard to read the Bible and NOT come away thinking that god doesn't exist. ;)

There's truth there. I was all like "bacon, oysters and buttsex are abominations? This sh*t be whack, yo!" And Gomorrah sounded kinda fun, like Amsterdam.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

3) If you still really want to argue with your brother until he lies beaten on the field, his women and children helpless before the barbarian onslaught of your mind, you should look into learning some formal debate skills. Many a seemingly impenetrable argument can be brought low by careful mapping, analysis and rebuttal.

Note: this is probably a terrible idea. You guys are teenagers; never in the history of the spoken word has a teenager who thought he was right (or just felt like having an argument) been brought quivering to his knees by a hailstorm of flawless logic.

Your brother will never "lie beaten on the field", regardless of what you say, until you both reach a point where debating is actually what you're doing (rather than arguing). Ain't gonna happen. Nut up and move on.

This.

My sister used to be the "agree with me, or I'm storming off in a huff" sort too - logic, common sense, analysis, careful thought and trying to engage in a debate usually made her resort to Jerry Springer style retorts like, 'WhatEVER!!!" and "Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up..." repeated as fast and loud as possible to drown me out. When I got tired of that, I'd try and shut my bedroom door in her face which caused her to cling to the door frame with all her might and we ended up trying to punch each other.

Point is, you're going to fight and the best possible way to avoid the fallout from that is not to engage in an exchange of opinions that will lead to arguing and storming off. He has his opinions, you have yours - let it lie.

Also - after all the fighting and nearly killing each other when we were teenagers, my sister and I get along great now. I learned to stop thinking my opinions were superior and she learned to actually listen even if the opinion differed from hers. We still argue from time to time, but it's a lot more civilized.

On the point of arguing as kids, I have kids now and it amuses me when they argue like this. I mean, one girl will tell her sister that her skirt was ugly, and the insulted girl comes up to me and says, "Daddy!!!!! Sister told me my dress was ugly." *pout*

I mean, I remember what it was like to think that the entire world was just your family and that when my brothers or sisters would say something that it must be true on some level, but looking from the outside in, it does look very, very silly. I have to do my best not to chuckle when something like this happens around the house.

LarryC wrote:

On the point of arguing as kids, I have kids now and it amuses me when they argue like this. I mean, one girl will tell her sister that her skirt was ugly, and the insulted girl comes up to me and says, "Daddy!!!!! Sister told me my dress was ugly." *pout*

I assume the correct answer was, "Well, honey, it is, but as long as you like it, you should keep wearing it. Even if it makes you look like a stepped-on frog. I'll still love you because you're my daughter and I have to."

ColdForged wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

In fairness, it's kind of hard to read the Bible and NOT come away thinking that god doesn't exist. ;)

There's truth there. I was all like "bacon, oysters and buttsex are abominations? This sh*t be whack, yo!" And Gomorrah sounded kinda fun, like Amsterdam.

Yeah, it starts off kind of weird. I gets better, though!

And then it gets weird again.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
LarryC wrote:

On the point of arguing as kids, I have kids now and it amuses me when they argue like this. I mean, one girl will tell her sister that her skirt was ugly, and the insulted girl comes up to me and says, "Daddy!!!!! Sister told me my dress was ugly." *pout*

I assume the correct answer was, "Well, honey, it is, but as long as you like it, you should keep wearing it. Even if it makes you look like a stepped-on frog. I'll still love you because you're my daughter and I have to."

Haha. I don't know what the correct answer is. I'm just winging it as best I can. In that situation I said, "Well, if she thinks it's ugly, then you don't have to worry about her borrowing it, right? And I think it looks perfectly nice. If you and I think it looks pretty, then that's OK, right?"

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

Welcome to GamersWithJobs.com!

Go to a college as far away from your brother as possible. Wait a few years with only the minimum holiday/summer vacation (go to Summer school if necessary)worth of interaction. See the world outside the family. By then both of you will have grown up some and can work it out.

Hey, it worked for me and my douchebag of a brother

MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

People get this site confused with www.gamerswithjob.com all the time.

Ego Man wrote:

Go to a college as far away from your brother as possible. Wait a few years with only the minimum holiday/summer vacation (go to Summer school if necessary)worth of interaction. See the world outside the family. By then both of you will have grown up some and can work it out.

This. When it comes to brothers close proximity = conflict. My brother and I get along much better now that we're no longer living in the same house, and we can even deal civilly with one another for a week at a time or more! Though the last time we were stuck in the same place for three weeks, even with separate hotel rooms, I wanted to throttle him half the time.

You're seventeen. He's nineteen. You've got, at worst, a few short years before you have your own life with your own friends, apartment, girlfriend/boyfriend, job, and myriad of worries far beyond what kind of games your brother likes. You may never be friends with him but I think you'll eventually be able to tolerate him for Thanksgiving.

In the meantime, good luck.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

People get this site confused with www.gamerswithjob.com all the time.

Poor guy.. lost his wife, kids and oxen.. then he got stuck playing Daikatana..

Chairman_Mao wrote:

Repeat the line "there's nothing funny about a murder of douchebags" whenever he talks to you.

Just to clear this up, you mean a group of douchebags? Not a homicide where the douchebags had it coming and I get off on community service? Like if I say fire bombed the set of the Jersey Shore?

KingGorilla wrote:
Chairman_Mao wrote:

Repeat the line "there's nothing funny about a murder of douchebags" whenever he talks to you.

Just to clear this up, you mean a group of douchebags? Not a homicide where the douchebags had it coming and I get off on community service? Like if I say fire bombed the set of the Jersey Shore?

There's nothing funny about a murder of douchebags.

Just tell him to smell the glove.

LarryC wrote:

On the point of arguing as kids, I have kids now and it amuses me when they argue like this. I mean, one girl will tell her sister that her skirt was ugly, and the insulted girl comes up to me and says, "Daddy!!!!! Sister told me my dress was ugly." *pout*

I was thinking of this today as my niece was getting frustrated with trying to put a hair band on a toy horse to make it into fake reins. She was screaming, crying, and her answers were either unintelligible gibberish or "no".

Yet all I could think to do was laugh, which probably pissed her off all the more.

I've noticed this happens all the time. Even though I shouldn't find her little 5 year old tantrums funny, they just make me laugh all the time. I end up having to cover my mouth and look away so she can't see me laughing. I try to think back to what it was like as a kid taking such things so seriously and getting so frustrated, but the sheer simplicity of it all comes off as being damn funny.

That said, I think of the arguments I got into on forums, let alone with siblings, when I was younger and think "what a douche". So when I speak with my teenage cousins I have the same sense of amusement I have with my niece. That sense of taking yourself so seriously when it's all so simple. I laugh and say "uh huh, yeah, sure".

In other words: I concur with everyone that said something along the lines of "you'll grow out of it".

MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

I blame kids these days!

wordsmythe wrote:
MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

I blame kids these days!

Yeah us f*cking kids, were useless

MyNameIsHunter wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:
MyNameIsHunter wrote:

Wow, how did we get to talking about the bible?

I blame kids these days!

Yeah us f*cking kids, were useless

Oh crap, Wordie is going to hurt you.

A were-useless is only useless on a full moon.

wordsmythe wrote:

A were-useless is only useless on a full moon.

Bravo, sir.

wordsmythe wrote:

A were-useless is only useless on a full moon.

**golf clap**

wordsmythe wrote:

A were-useless is only useless on a full moon.

MyNameIsHunter wrote:
wordsmythe wrote:

A were-useless is only useless on a full moon.

:(

Don't worry. Getting chastised by Wordie means that you're truly a member of our community now.