DC: Universe - Catch All

fangblackbone wrote:

Travel powers are earned through different means such as achievements. You also won't start out with something like flight. You will have to work your way up from glide first. This could be awesome but if combat is ho hum then the game won't have any longevity.

Ugh. Not impressed. "I'm sorry, Batman, you can't have a Batmobile. But you can have this Batmoped. Oh, wait, sorry, Batrollerskates, come back in a couple of levels." Go, go, mass transit of justice?

LtWarhound wrote:
fangblackbone wrote:

Travel powers are earned through different means such as achievements. You also won't start out with something like flight. You will have to work your way up from glide first. This could be awesome but if combat is ho hum then the game won't have any longevity.

Ugh. Not impressed. "I'm sorry, Batman, you can't have a Batmobile. But you can have this Batmoped. Oh, wait, sorry, Batrollerskates, come back in a couple of levels." Go, go, mass transit of justice?

Thats the thing you have to go through that... the icons dont.

So I guess new heroes have to evolve rather than being born/made/or be able to buy the fancy abilities. I guess if I set up a background of being a eons old minor deity with bat wings that I'll have to work in something about having never learned to fly with said wings during those eons. Eh, creativity and backstory have to take a backseat to gameplay sometimes. I can live with that.

Kehama wrote:

So I guess new heroes have to evolve rather than being born/made/or be able to buy the fancy abilities. I guess if I set up a background of being a eons old minor deity with bat wings that I'll have to work in something about having never learned to fly with said wings during those eons. Eh, creativity and backstory have to take a backseat to gameplay sometimes. I can live with that.

Or you could go the thor origin route: banished to earth for being a dillweed, humbled and must now re-learn his powers.

The combat of City of Heroes was great. But there was NOTHING else to it. How does a superhero get loot? What do they do with it? The major stumbling block, it seems to me, is how do you keep people interested without good loot, when their enemies will always have better powers?

Unless you let them fight non-heroes/villains. If I'm superpowered and get to plow through ordinary citizens, bring it on.

If Superman is the pinnacle of power, then working fifty levels to get to that may get pretty old.

There is a rather extensive loot and auction house in CoH these days. They just merged the hero-side and villian-side markets, so its all one now.

Plowing through minions isn't that much different than I'd expect plowing through normal citizens would be. The Mayhem missions let you lay waste to the landscape as you go about a bank robbery (lots of destructables, and doing so racks up extra time, so its not just mindless destruction, but rewarded mindless destruction!)

LtWarhound wrote:

There is a rather extensive loot and auction house in CoH these days.

I guess I left just after some loot had been implemented. At the time it simply didn't feel organic to the game, and as far as I knew, none of it tended to help the player a lot - all geared towards the supergroup base, it seemed. Glad to hear they changed that.

I never understood the fascination with loot people had with respect to CoH. Why in the world would loot make that game better? CoH has problems, but they're problems related to storytelling and experiences, not getting "leet drops".

Going Rogue has taken some steps to try and remedy that though.. I'm enjoying the new zones..

Valmorian wrote:

Why in the world would loot make that game better?

Well, that's part of my point - I don't think it does. In a superhero game, I just don't see how it fits in. And so the shortcomings of CoH become, I think, those that all superhero MMORPGs will have to face: other than battle, what can you offer? I, for one, don't think MMOs are remotely good at storytelling (didn't keep with WoW through the Lich King, however).

Oof, shouldn't have wandered away from the thread.

You have to earn your travel power.

Not so much. You pick your travel power (acrobatics/flight/speed) at character create, and get to use that movement mode from moment one. We have upgrades for each of them in the game that give you extra combat powers 'themed' to your movement mode, as well as additional tweaks to the mode itself (supersonic flight, jetpack-assisted gliding, etc.).

Why is loot good for a superhero game?

Because loot is awesome? The thing I think a lot of people will enjoy about loot in DCUO is the appearance system. As we've talked about before, every appearance you get from every piece of loot you equip is saved to an appearance journal. You can mix and match these appearances at will, customizing your look anytime you like. There's no cost, and there are lots of fun ways to earn unique, rare appearances unavailable through 'normal' play of the game. Plus, at the high end, you can earn the intensely awesome iconic suits that they've shown off in videos and such. No, you can't 'be' Batman, but how about you wear around a raid suit of armor crafted by him that has the freaking bat symbol on it?

Additionally, loot brings all the standard MMO goodness to the table: clear escalation of character power, comparable character stats, 'stat builds' depending on what kind of role you want to play in the game, etc, etc.

The combat in DCUO is the special sauce, think of loot and our other MMO mechanics as the pure sausage that the sauce is poured over.

Because loot is awesome? The thing I think a lot of people will enjoy about loot in DCUO is the appearance system. As we've talked about before, every appearance you get from every piece of loot you equip is saved to an appearance journal. You can mix and match these appearances at will, customizing your look anytime you like. There's no cost, and there are lots of fun ways to earn unique, rare appearances unavailable through 'normal' play of the game.

I don't get it. On the one hand the fact that you have travel powers at level 1 seems to imply that DC Universe "gets" that it's no fun to not be able to realize the character conception you have at the beginning of the game, but then it turns around and goes "Oh, no, you can't wear something with a bat on it unless batman gives it to you."

Additionally, loot brings all the standard MMO goodness to the table: clear escalation of character power, comparable character stats, 'stat builds' depending on what kind of role you want to play in the game, etc, etc.

Escalation of character power, character stats and stat builds don't need to be tied to loot in any fashion. In the case of superhero comics, all of those things exist and yet you virtually NEVER see loot drops from defeated enemies in the comics. Superheroes going around beating up badguys to customize their appearance, abilities, etc? How is that even remotely faithful to the genre?

In my opinion, a Superhero MMO needs to look at what it is that makes comics appealing to their customers instead of borrowing the tropes of fantasy RPGs and trying to shoehorn them in. The superhero game that focuses on branching "mission" paths, non-combat feats and interpersonal relationships is one that I want to play. City of Heroes made the mistake in thinking that superhero combat is all that is important, to the point where all you can DO with their powers are combat related things. It took them ages to figure out that superheroes in comics do a lot more than fight badguys.

To be more specific, instead of concentrating on increases of superhero power being tied to equipment "drops", those increases of power should be tied to exactly what they are tied to in the comics: Experience and Fame. Superman is an icon not because of his powers, but because of his attitude, reputation and general "go-gooderness". Likewise any random guy dressing up like the Joker isn't scary, it's the history, experience and reputation of the Joker's insanity that have built him up into an epic villain.

In short, the "reward" system for a superhero game should be about becoming a famous hero or villain and the accolades and responsibilities that tie into that, not the stuff that drops off of your opponents.

Valmorian wrote:

In short, the "reward" system for a superhero game should be about becoming a famous hero or villain and the accolades and responsibilities that tie into that, not the stuff that drops off of your opponents.

Why not both?

Some games even do both. Even WoW. You get your accolades and titles and the like and they're seen through achievements which is all the rage now days, and then you also get your gear for the number crunching metagaming folks as well from mob drops.

Not that WoW started that whole process, but its the biggest one out there.

Honestly having them both is the more alluring for me. If it was just one or the other it'd get old fast.

Why not both?

It depends how "faithful" to the comic source you want a superhero game to be. I never missed loot in CoH when it wasn't there, not even a little bit, because the whole concept of drops off of enemies is completely foreign to superhero source material.

There's nothing special about gear that couldn't be equally special about general improvement through "fighting crime". Instead of having thugs and supervillains dropping items that you use to improve your character, you could always just have a range of accomplishments that unlock new abilities. Effectively the same result, but without the awkward "Why would Superman use Brainiac's gun??"

Valmorian wrote:
Why not both?

It depends how "faithful" to the comic source you want a superhero game to be. I never missed loot in CoH when it wasn't there, not even a little bit, because the whole concept of drops off of enemies is completely foreign to superhero source material.

There's nothing special about gear that couldn't be equally special about general improvement through "fighting crime". Instead of having thugs and supervillains dropping items that you use to improve your character, you could always just have a range of accomplishments that unlock new abilities. Effectively the same result, but without the awkward "Why would Superman use Brainiac's gun??"

This sounds like a preference in the way the stories told than an actual game mechanic. You can accomplish both things you just mentioned with some lore.

This sounds like a preference in the way the stories told than an actual game mechanic. You can accomplish both things you just mentioned with some lore.

Well you can accomplish any strange idea with lore, if you want. The key is, do you want your superhero game to be true to the type of storytelling that superhero comics are known for or not?

Valmorian wrote:
This sounds like a preference in the way the stories told than an actual game mechanic. You can accomplish both things you just mentioned with some lore.

Well you can accomplish any strange idea with lore, if you want. The key is, do you want your superhero game to be true to the type of storytelling that superhero comics are known for or not?

I still not following the logic where having gear isnt true to the storytelling of comics. As far as that goes having gear/gadgets/toys/cool looking x is exactly part of the superhero world. Not having it seems silly.

I think what he is saying is that he wants the soap opera element of comic books. Who's sleeping with who? Who is backstabbing who? Who's marriage is on the rocks? Who has a drinking problem? Daddy issues, anyone? And of course, we need some moral dilemmas.

When i saw trailer for DC Universe, I imagined a single player game with a story similar to Batman: AA, and some cool combat. The more I see of of how it might work, and even how some MMO fans wish it would work, the less interested I am in this game. But then, I'm not a an MMO guy, so they aren't targeting me.

But from what little I have played, and from what i have read from people that enjoy MMO's, a soap opera is not really what the genre can really do.

I've been reading Marvel's Civil war series lately, and picked up DC's Final Crisis a couple of weeks ago. I love this idea of grouping lots of heroes and villains together in a story of conspiracy complicated by personal issues. The trailer kind of hinted at this, and it made me think of giving this a try, even though I'm not into MMO's. But from the discussion here, it doesn't sound like the game I would want is something that MMO fans would want.

So now I just look at this franchise, pining for another game that is directed at me.

I still not following the logic where having gear isnt true to the storytelling of comics. As far as that goes having gear/gadgets/toys/cool looking x is exactly part of the superhero world. Not having it seems silly.

It's not gear that I am talking about, it is the method of acquisition. Superheroes don't go out and defeat their foes in order to take the villain's equipment. That is a staple of the fantasy dungeon crawler.

Superheroes don't go out and defeat their foes in order to take the villain's equipment. That is a staple of the fantasy dungeon crawler.

Superheroes in general don't, but... villains do. I mean that is pretty much the plot of every comic ever. Villain A thinks acquiring uber nob X will give him/her the ultimate power and pulls all the stops to get it. Hero B uncovers the plans and thwarts them.

Superheroes in general don't, but... villains do. I mean that is pretty much the plot of every comic ever. Villain A thinks acquiring uber nob X will give him/her the ultimate power and pulls all the stops to get it. Hero B uncovers the plans and thwarts them.

The McGuffins that villains pursue in comics only very occasionally belong to superheroes. Usually they're devices held by helpless scientists, or mystical doodads that are on display in a museum. In any case, the type of "get that item!" that appears in the comic is certainly not exemplified by the generic "kill x mobs and hope something cool drops" of current MMOs.

Valmorian wrote:

It's not gear that I am talking about, it is the method of acquisition. Superheroes don't go out and defeat their foes in order to take the villain's equipment. That is a staple of the fantasy dungeon crawler.

Then how do you explain the pictures of Batman wearing a green lantern ring while wielding a lightsaber and fighting a mutant shark? See? It all makes sense on the internet. Just step outside the world of the comic books themselves and everything becomes perfectly clear.

IMAGE(http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/SupermanHammer.jpg)

What, no one likes Superman's loot?

I thought it was funny;-)

Isn't beta supposed to be out? Soon? Last week?

I don't know...I hear the concern here but I'm still looking forward to playing this game.

The issue I have with superhero MMOs is that, yeah, the element that makes comics interesting will probably not translate well to an MMO...or to any game for that matter. In an MMO especially because of what has come before DCUO, i.e. CoX. Besides a great and engaging combat system, crafting, loot and some lore, there is not much more you can bring to the table without hiring a Bioware to knock it out of the park with story and some of that comic magic sauce that Val referred to.

I'm just really hoping that DCUO is more balanced in terms of giving our heros more things to do than just punch bad guys in the face.

New hands on/interview video!

Hey Mike you still answering questions?

Is the beta going on now PS3 only? Or a mix of pc and PS3?

Doh! Beat me to it.

Delayed Until Early 2011

Wonder if the WoW release had anything to do with it?

I'm not sure what it is about this title but I have absolutely no interest in this game. Heck, I even had more interest in APB before it launched. I'm guessing it has a lot to do with the fact that I read a lot of Marvel growing up but very little DC. I just never liked their heroes that much.