Is there any point in voting (in America) this year?

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Watching the regulatory capture at all levels of a theoretically democratic administration it's become more clear than ever that there isn't really a choice between the two parties. With that I've decided not to vote this year. May not ever again. I might join a protest, lobby for direct initiatives, but I don't see the point in voting any longer. No matter who we put in power the creep of the security state will continue, the lobbyists will keep writing terrible legislation and the rich will continue to be taken care of. In the vein of "Are the American people obsolete?" I guess I've decided that yes, we are. We have a government that's not only incompetent, but completely unresponsive to the majority of the people. I don't see a way logically that voting fixes this.

Well, that is a top notch attitude; the soviets would have loved you:)

I think that there is *always* a reason to vote. You get the government that you deserve - and frankly, we deserve the incompetence that we have witnessed and degenerated into. If you want to raise the bar - vote for candidates you believe in, not just candidates you think can win. Keep the discussion alive.

DSGamer wrote:

I don't believe in any of the candidates right now. The last two years were the last gasp for me. My wife even canvassed for Obama. Won't make that mistake again. I think protests, riots and direct action are the only way this country ever changes for the better at this point.

You could find and convince someone you do believe in to run, or run yourself.

I know where you're coming from though.

I don't believe in any of the candidates right now. The last two years were the last gasp for me. My wife even canvassed for Obama. Won't make that mistake again. I think protests, riots and direct action are the only way this country ever changes for the better at this point.

EDIT: And for what it's worth I've voted in every election, special election, off year election, general election and primary since I was 18 years old. 17 years as a voter and I've never been more sure of how pointless the exercise is than right now. The Soviet Union didn't fall because people started voting in high numbers. The Soviet Union fell because the economy was in ruins and they had leaders willing to sacrifice the system for the well-being of the people.

Even then Yeltsin had almost literally fight to retain control of the government from the old hardline.

Stengah wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

I don't believe in any of the candidates right now. The last two years were the last gasp for me. My wife even canvassed for Obama. Won't make that mistake again. I think protests, riots and direct action are the only way this country ever changes for the better at this point.

You could find and convince someone you do believe in to run, or run yourself.

I know where you're coming from though.

If I ran myself they would pour through every message board post and tweet and the mainstream media would find some reason to declare me unfit to represent the people. Don't believe I haven't considered it before. My wife ran for the statehouse one year herself. She went to fill a spot where the winner of the primary decided to move 3 months before the general election. The democratic party here in Oregon was behind her and she began doing all the things you're supposed to do. She met with donors, she setup a separate bank account for the campaign, she basically walked right up to the starting line and at the last minute the leader of the county democratic committee decided to insert himself instead. He won the election of the committee (all placed by him), then turned around and lost the general election by 30 points.

So even if you try and do all the right things you can lose by not being a big enough cog in the machine.

As one of the 'youth', I laugh silently over my coffee.

DSGamer wrote:

So even if you try and do all the right things you can lose by not being a big enough cog in the machine.

Very true, but at least you know you tried, which is more than most people do.

Vote for someone not affiliated with Democrats or Republicans? Obviously they won't get elected, but it functions as a protest votes of sorts - if the big two see enough people voting but not for them, they might start to adjust their policies to try and tempt you back.

Yeah, I know: I'm optimistic to the point of being delusional.

I haven't voted for anything since the 90's. Once I finally realized I have the skills to keep myself employed; and that it didn't seem to matter who was in office my standard of living didn't change all that much. I also choose not to complain about it, since I'm not part of the process anymore.

If you don't vote your conscience, you are part of the problem.

Should you do more than just vote? Certainly.

But, refusing to vote is refusing to take care of your most basic, fundamental, and *easy* civic responsibility.

And that discredits a heck of a lot of any other political action you might take.

DSGamer wrote:

I don't see a way logically that voting fixes this.

Do you see a way, logically, that agitating for change and then not voting will fix it?

Hypatian wrote:

*cliches removed*

I've heard all of this before. The demonization of the non-voter. Heck, I've probably said them. But once you see just how broken everything is I can't imagine believing that voting will make a difference, personally.

DSGamer wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

*cliches removed*

I've heard all of this before. The demonization of the non-voter. Heck, I've probably said them. But once you see just how broken everything is I can't imagine believing that voting will make a difference, personally.

You sir, fail my definition of citizen.

SallyNasty wrote:

Well, that is a top notch attitude; the soviets would have loved you:)

I think that there is *always* a reason to vote. You get the government that you deserve - and frankly, we deserve the incompetence that we have witnessed and degenerated into. If you want to raise the bar - vote for candidates you believe in, not just candidates you think can win. Keep the discussion alive.

That's what I did for a while. I was still rewarded with corruption.

We get the government we are presented with and that 50.1% of the voting populace approves of. It has little to do with what anyone deserves.

boogle wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

*cliches removed*

I've heard all of this before. The demonization of the non-voter. Heck, I've probably said them. But once you see just how broken everything is I can't imagine believing that voting will make a difference, personally.

You sir, fail my definition of citizen.

Another cliche.

Not voting == bad citizen.

Even if you have voted every other election in your entire life, decide to sit it out for a while and suddenly... non-citizen. Your logic fails.

By not voting you lose the right to complain about any political action you might have influenced with your vote. Not voting and then complaining about the outcome would be like not buying a lottery ticket and then complaining you didn't win.

I can, however, sympathize. The voting system here is not nearly as broken as yours and, in comparison, voting in the USA does seem kind of pointless if you're unhappy with the big candidates. I think, though, that taking an hour of your time to cast a vote once in a few months isn't too much to ask. Is it possible to invalidate your vote? Are there write-ins for every election? There should be a way to express your dissatisfaction or your voting system is even more broken than I thought.

It's a tough situation.

I'm in a country where a party holds more than 60% of the vote, yet is corrupt and useless, so why should I vote? In fact I didn't for years, we had legislation in place that allowed public representatives to change party without losing their place in the legislature. This was finally declared unconstitutional so I voted again for the second time last year.

I can't blame you for not bothering, but isn't there someone else you can rally support for without wasting your mandate? Obviously not to get them in power, but to give them a voice and register your dissatisfaction.

DSGamer, you can say that you aren't voting because you don't like any of the candidates, and that's definitely a valid opinion. Or, you can vote for the least-worst candidate because you see it as your civic duty and you believe in Democracy, which is another valid opinion. Neither will make any tangible difference, so your choice is pretty much about conscience.

Personally, I'd vote for the least-worst guy. That way, if anyone else wins then at least you can say you voted for the other guy and if he wins then that's about as good as you're going to get.

Now I wouldn't go so far as to say that you're a non-citizen but I would say that you wouldn't be participating in our democracy. I promise you that to most people, "I didn't vote on principle" sounds a lot like, "I was too lazy."

Now if you don't really care to argue politics and you don't really care what other people think, then by all means do as you please.

Anymore, I often feel as though my effort voting is as worthwhile as voting in the presidential elections in Saddam-run Iraq. So I definitely know where you're coming from, DSG.

I never thought I'd say this, coming from a politically active background, but....*sigh*...NO.

The political system is only in place to give us the illusion of choice. Our true leadership consists of the corporatocracy that controls this country and the rest of the world. We live in a facist state and don't even realize it.

There is no difference between republican and democrat. They are only two sides of the same coin and that coin is in the hands of the wealthy powerbrokers that are in true control of our civilization.

My cynicism has grown to the point where I frankly don't want to be bothered by any of it. Hopefully eventually my family and I will be able to move somewhere and live out our lives in peaceful ignorance as to the state of human affairs.

I feel really bad for the following generations because this sh*t is alllllll f'd up.

TheArtOfScience wrote:

I never thought I'd say this, coming from a politically active background, but....*sigh*...NO.

The political system is only in place to give us the illusion of choice. Our true leadership consists of the corporatocracy that controls this country and the rest of the world. We live in a facist state and don't even realize it.

There is no difference between republican and democrat. They are only two sides of the same coin and that coin is in the hands of the wealthy powerbrokers that are in true control of our civilization.

My cynicism has grown to the point where I frankly don't want to be bothered by any of it. Hopefully eventually my family and I will be able to move somewhere and live out our lives in peaceful ignorance as to the state of human affairs.

I feel really bad for the following generations because this sh*t is alllllll f'd up.

I'm saving up to buy a decommissioned oil platform we can move to international waters. Maybe mount a few cannons on it, some AA defenses, that sort of thing. Wanna reserve a room or two?

I'm also taking applications for a geeky dude to build a giant bipedal robot for me.

LobsterMobster wrote:
TheArtOfScience wrote:

I never thought I'd say this, coming from a politically active background, but....*sigh*...NO.

The political system is only in place to give us the illusion of choice. Our true leadership consists of the corporatocracy that controls this country and the rest of the world. We live in a facist state and don't even realize it.

There is no difference between republican and democrat. They are only two sides of the same coin and that coin is in the hands of the wealthy powerbrokers that are in true control of our civilization.

My cynicism has grown to the point where I frankly don't want to be bothered by any of it. Hopefully eventually my family and I will be able to move somewhere and live out our lives in peaceful ignorance as to the state of human affairs.

I feel really bad for the following generations because this sh*t is alllllll f'd up.

I'm saving up to buy a decommissioned oil platform we can move to international waters. Maybe mount a few cannons on it, some AA defenses, that sort of thing. Wanna reserve a room or two?

I'm also taking applications for a geeky dude to build a giant bipedal robot for me.

Where do I send my application for residance and crazy robot builder?

On the flip side -- I was watching Mad Men the other day, and was struck by the conversation Bert was having with his friend concerning how "the passage of Medicare would be the next step of many to the path of socialism" and its similarities to conversations we're having nowadays.

If voting is pointless, then it's no more or less pointless now than it has been in the last 60 years at least (and possibly longer than that). But. . . how can one say that when one looks at the progress America's made in the last 60 years? Somehow we managed to get some good stuff accomplished, including the CRA, the ADA, the creation of the EPA, etc. They're not my definition of perfect, but they're better than nothing and they happened because people voted for representatives who voted for them.

Not everything goes the way of the Corporation, either. They fought hard against the recent changes to credit cards. And while they took some of the teeth out of the CARD act, it's still a pretty big step forward in consumer protection. And I voted for two of the Senators and the President that helped pass it.

I'll be the first to tell you I have a low opinion of democracy in general. It's messy and stupid and practically begs to be corrupt. But I'll be quite honest -- it's also my opinion that the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness you're describing has been created by the interests who benefit most from you not voting.

DSGamer wrote:
boogle wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
Hypatian wrote:

*cliches removed*

I've heard all of this before. The demonization of the non-voter. Heck, I've probably said them. But once you see just how broken everything is I can't imagine believing that voting will make a difference, personally.

You sir, fail my definition of citizen.

Another cliche.

Not voting == bad citizen.

Even if you have voted every other election in your entire life, decide to sit it out for a while and suddenly... non-citizen. Your logic fails.

Not voting fails the classical liberal definition of citizen, an educated member of the populace who votes in elections and protects the republic. Don't quibble definitions with Math people. We are pro at that.

I was trying to figure out which election you are referring to and a quick search said it's senate election.

It doesn't matter who you vote for what important is that you vote. A low turn out of the majority voters overpower well organized special interest groups . So you should vote and encourage others to vote.

Who to vote for usually comes down to the least of two evils. You could also take another strategy like if you don't like Obama you can vote for people who would give him trouble which would paralyze his administration in certain fields.

In our last election I knew who I didn't wanted to win - Kadima( I really don't like them and the person who lead them ) so I voted for someone who could beat them - Likud . My previous votes were a right empowerment for Israel Beitenu which generally stop any peace negotiations while have some positive effect on secular life.

We had a municipal election where people didn't come to vote (36% ) the corrupt mayor out of office so he won. He was in the process of getting booted out of office and that what eventually happened . The following election a third candidate showed up which reshuffled the cards and it ended 41%,39% ,19% so the 58% that who voted for the secular candidate got a religious candidate . Electing a mayor is something that affects our day to day lives and generally the major issues are usually related to how religious you are.

First off, the idea behind voting isn't "I vote because then I get the candidate and policies I want." In any election, a lot of people don't get what they want. There is no guarantee through voting that the policies you like will ever be in place. However, if you don't intend on voting, there is no mechanism by which they can EVER be put in place. The social utility of voting, even if small, is greater than the social utility of not voting.

Second, you can't look at the history of even the last election and tell me that it didn't matter whether Obama or McCain won. I may not like a lot of what Obama does, but I recognize that there was at least a difference in temperament between the two men that was critical. Everything I've seen McCain say and do since the last election indicates to me that I made the right choice, even though I've found some of Obama's policies to be stupid or counter-productive.

Third, all the people who worked hard during the 19th and 20th century to bring the vote to a wider section of the population than property-owning white guys would find this attitude that voting doesn't matter to be nonsensical and a little disgusting. Can anyone imagine Martin Luther King suggesting, "Hey, my brothers and sisters, why bother asking for the vote? Because it doesn't matter!" No, because the idea that voting never results in change in laws and government for the better is total horsesh*t. We have a voting rights act, for example, because people voted for congressmen and women who thought it was a good idea, even if many of the other ideas those people espoused were stupid. If you can't vote for someone on all issues, pick one that's important to you and become part of the constituency.

Forth, not voting means abandoning the field to a bunch of right-wing tea party types. They want fewer non-wingers voting. One of the reason the right-wing hated acorn was because Acorn signed people up to vote. The tea-party types WILL be out on election day, and they WILL make sure their voices are heard.

Rant over.

Funkenpants wrote:

Forth, not voting means abandoning the field to a bunch of right-wing tea party types. They want fewer non-wingers voting. One of the reason the right-wing hated acorn was because Acorn signed people up to vote. The tea-party types WILL be out on election day, and they WILL make sure their voices are heard.

Rant over.

On the other side, I come from the subset of the populace that believes in the "Idiocracy" scenario. That by sheer numbers the tea party types will overwhelm everyone else just by breeding more. My wife and I are never having kids, so we've already given them an advantage there.

DSGamer wrote:

I don't believe in any of the candidates right now. The last two years were the last gasp for me. My wife even canvassed for Obama. Won't make that mistake again. I think protests, riots and direct action are the only way this country ever changes for the better at this point.

EDIT: And for what it's worth I've voted in every election, special election, off year election, general election and primary since I was 18 years old. 17 years as a voter and I've never been more sure of how pointless the exercise is than right now. The Soviet Union didn't fall because people started voting in high numbers. The Soviet Union fell because the economy was in ruins and they had leaders willing to sacrifice the system for the well-being of the people.

Even then Yeltsin had almost literally fight to retain control of the government from the old hardline.

My reference to the Soviets was more about the apathy of the general public that led to their staying in power for as long as they did.

DSGamer wrote:

On the other side, I come from the subset of the populace that believes in the "Idiocracy" scenario. That by sheer numbers the tea party types will overwhelm everyone else just by breeding more. My wife and I are never having kids, so we've already given them an advantage there.

Yes, it seems likely, but personally, I don't believe in giving up without a fight.

Funkenpants said it well.

Choosing to withdraw from voting is a personal choice - it's one I disagree with, but I respect the fact that it's your call.

That said, I feel that if you don't participate in the electoral process, you forfeit any right to be upset by the results of that process.

(I canvassed for Obama. Though I am disappointed with his choices on a number of fronts, I am happy that he's in the White House, given the alternative).

Andy wrote:

By not voting you lose the right to complain about any political action you might have influenced with your vote. Not voting and then complaining about the outcome would be like not buying a lottery ticket and then complaining you didn't win.

An interesting choice for an analogy, because largely, in American elections, if you're not voting for one of the big two party candidates (and even if you are, some of the races aren't even close) it's like buying a lottery ticket and complaining that you didn't win. The odds are remarkably stacked against you.

Most of the electorate is far too ignorant and removed from the political processes of this nation to even realize they might have a different choice than (R) or (D). When they see their letter of choice after a candidate's name, it's as unstoppable and as mindless as an ocean wave.

Seth wrote:

On the flip side -- I was watching Mad Men the other day, and was struck by the conversation Bert was having with his friend concerning how "the passage of Medicare would be the next step of many to the path of socialism" and its similarities to conversations we're having nowadays.

You do realize that Mad Men is written by contemporary writers with a conscious desire to relate to a contemporary audience, right? Not a time window?

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