Starcraft II HotS Multiplayer Swarm-All

LarryC wrote:

What I wanted to see was why a guy with a Pylon in his opponent's base would bother with Photon Cannons, when Warped-in units will do the job better. There must be some trick to it that makes it good on some level.

Timing.

Warp Gate tech requires a gateway, then a cybernetics core, then to research warp gate technology. Photon cannons require a forge, which requires nothing. In a true cannon rush, the protoss won't even build a gateway. They warp in a pylon in their own base, then a forge. Then they start a pylon in your base, and once those two are finished start warping in cannons.

A cannon proxy rush and a zealot proxy rush get their first dangerous things out at about the same time. The gateway takes 15 seconds longer than the forge, and the cannon takes 7 seconds longer than the zealot (without chrono boost). But zealots are a lot easier to kill than cannons are. The weak point in the cannon rush is the probe, but you have to scout it to be able to stop it, and even then it can be difficult, especially for Protoss. Once the cannons are in play, your best bet is to make static defenses of your own, or counterattack and hope they didn't build any in their own base.

Wow, moving between leagues is easier than I would've thought. Here's how it went for me:

Placement: 1-4, placed into Bronze
Bronze: 7-3, moved up to Silver
Silver: 4-5, moved up to Gold (was ranked about 15 in my division)

Not sure the logic behind moving me up there, but perhaps if you're near the top of a division they scoot you up to see if you can hack it?

7inchsplit wrote:

Not sure the logic behind moving me up there, but perhaps if you're near the top of a division they scoot you up to see if you can hack it?

Don't forget that you don't necessarily play only people in your league. You may have been beating some Gold players during that run so it moved you up.

Keldar wrote:

Warp Gate tech requires a gateway, then a cybernetics core, then to research warp gate technology. Photon cannons require a forge, which requires nothing. In a true cannon rush, the protoss won't even build a gateway. They warp in a pylon in their own base, then a forge. Then they start a pylon in your base, and once those two are finished start warping in cannons.

A true cannon-rusher would put the Forge in his opponent's base.

Maybe use it to block off the ramp. Risky, but hey, you're already cannon rushing might as well go all in with your all-in.

The weak point in the cannon rush is the probe, but you have to scout it to be able to stop it, and even then it can be difficult, especially for Protoss. Once the cannons are in play, your best bet is to make static defenses of your own, or counterattack and hope they didn't build any in their own base.

Well, no use counter-attacking before you kill off the probe. The probe is your number-one priority. If you manage that, sometimes you can stop him before he gets cannons close enough to do any damage. In that case, he's wasted hundreds of minerals, and he's wide open for an attack. There's a reason why it's called an "all-in."

Mr Crinkle wrote:
7inchsplit wrote:

Not sure the logic behind moving me up there, but perhaps if you're near the top of a division they scoot you up to see if you can hack it?

Don't forget that you don't necessarily play only people in your league. You may have been beating some Gold players during that run so it moved you up.

A-ha, I hadn't even thought of that for some reason. Very clever.

drdoak wrote:

Dunno if these have been linked yet, but build order tester stuff is here:
BOT
YABOT

Added to original post.

Also added a selection of Day[9] videos I recommend and some more stuff. If you have got anything else to be added to the OP, let me know.

Luggage wrote:
drdoak wrote:

Dunno if these have been linked yet, but build order tester stuff is here:
BOT
YABOT

Added to original post.

Also added a selection of Day[9] videos I recommend and some more stuff. If you have got anything else to be added to the OP, let me know.

When it comes to videogames I'm probably the least competitive person on the planet. So who is the person inhabiting my body that has downloaded a build order tester?

MrDeVil909 wrote:

When it comes to videogames I'm probably the least competitive person on the planet. So who is the person inhabiting my body that has downloaded a build order tester?

Haha they're super handy for any skill level though. It's so hard to practice those first few minutes when you're in a match. Cleaning up my opening repertoire this weekend helped my game immensely.

Anyone else try Nexus Wars? I got pretty addicted to it this weekend.

scribble wrote:

A true cannon-rusher would put the Forge in his opponent's base.

Maybe use it to block off the ramp. Risky, but hey, you're already cannon rushing might as well go all in with your all-in. :P

There's something to be said for that, and I have seen people cannon rush from the front, but generally you try to hide the pylon somewhere near the back of the base just out of sight range. Trying to use the forge to block the ramp is gutsy, but gives them an extra 45 seconds to notice what's going on and try to stop it (since you have to get the first pylon in their base, too, to have a power field to build the forge in). And most people tend to be watching their ramp at some point in the early game... If not, well, they probably deserve to lose.

Well, no use counter-attacking before you kill off the probe. The probe is your number-one priority. If you manage that, sometimes you can stop him before he gets cannons close enough to do any damage. In that case, he's wasted hundreds of minerals, and he's wide open for an attack. There's a reason why it's called an "all-in."

Well, what I mean is if he already has a cannon up and all you have are a couple units, which would just get killed because the probe can kite them while they get shot to death, rather than attacking his cannons, go kill his base. If you take out his Nexus he can't get any minerals, or you can kill off the forge first so he can't build any more cannons (which is actually a fine argument for him building the forge in your base instead, now that I think about it). You can always go back for the cannons later, and if he does manage to get one close enough to start hitting your nexus/hatchery, just make sure you save enough minerals to build a new one somewhere else. Without any base and nothing but probes he'll be pretty powerless to stop you. (Terran, of course, doesn't even need to save the minerals, because you can just lift off the CC and float away.)

Yeah, the guy that cannon rushed me wasn't even vaguely sneaky about it. He set up right outside my Gateway.

Of course I should have pulled all my probes off gathering duty to hit his probe before it build the cannon, failing that I guess I should have built a couple of zealots then gone for his base which would probably have been defenseless.

It was the second game I played against the same guy too, the first one I was so busy chasing his probe around I neglected my base for a minute and he hit me with a few Zealots. That was why I ignored the probe in the second one.

Still not sore though, he stopped me from placing in a higher league and getting owned.

BNice wrote:

Anyone else try Nexus Wars? I got pretty addicted to it this weekend.

I made a post about it in the main thread.

Why do I even bother playing Random? Out of the nine games I did today, I got Protoss in seven and Terran in two.

Finally grew a pair and skipped practice league though. My placement matches were one guy instantly surrendering, one win against a feisty Zerg and three times being steamrolled by Gold+ level players. I ended up in Silver league and have gone 2:2 so far.

My biggest issue besides me still not knowing how to play Terran is getting too much tech too early on. The two games below show that pretty nicely.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135034.jpg)
This was during placement matches. I would place that Protoss in Gold, maybe Platin. After this and an even faster loss against a Zerg, I studied the replays and decided, I am not getting units fast enough.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135035.jpg)
After ending up in Silver, I got Protoss yet again and tried to implement, what I had learned. If this guy wouldn't have tried to get cute with me, the game could have run way longer.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135036.jpg)
Another placement match. I knew that a MMM blob would be the thing to go for, but the guy outplayed me on so many levels.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135038.jpg)
Today's favorite game. I know the "talker" type from WC3 and knew, what he was up to. If you watch closely, I make a few mistakes at the beginning, because I considered letting him talk to me. It was a close game, but he made one vital mistake and didn't like the results.

Okay, absolute noob question. How do I install YABOT? The SC2Mapster page says to drop it onto the Starcraft II launcher, but there doesn't seem to be a launcher.

I double click on the icon, and it goes directly into the game after checking for patches.

I may not play too much multiplayer for a few weeks as I continue to work on my house and slowly make it through the single player, but I'd like an add to the Steam group just in case.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Okay, absolute noob question. How do I install YABOT? The SC2Mapster page says to drop it onto the Starcraft II launcher, but there doesn't seem to be a launcher.

I double click on the icon, and it goes directly into the game after checking for patches.

If you drag a map or replay over the icon then SC2 will launch and automatically load that file.

I'd tried that, Gods I'm a tool. Forgot I hadn't extracted the files. :/

BNice wrote:

Anyone else try Nexus Wars? I got pretty addicted to it this weekend.

Yeah! It's great for when there are four of you online and you don't feel like playing 4v4. My friends and I played a ton of it during the beta.

scribble wrote:
BNice wrote:

Anyone else try Nexus Wars? I got pretty addicted to it this weekend.

Yeah! It's great for when there are four of you online and you don't feel like playing 4v4. My friends and I played a ton of it during the beta.

It's pretty chill, but also fairly slow. You spend a lot of time just waiting for something to happen.

The beginning is all about celebrating the little victories.

It gets intense quickly though. You should be constantly scrolling over to the other side to see what your opponents are doing.

Yeah, I've gone back to overlord at 9, pool at 13, hatch at 15.

I have found this to be the best basic strategy for me as well, I switched from 10 pool, which I used a lot during the beta, and am now in the Gold division.

One hint, just so this is more than a tagging post :), when playing against terrans you can counter a Hellion rush with two spine crawlers near your drones.

Of course you could just upgrade to speedlings, but it is still something to think of.

Walling your opponent in when they turtle with zerglings and jumping to mutalisks, skipping roaches and hydras, is risky, but can pay huge dividends. You just have to be sure of what they are doing.

A well placed mutalisk attack on their SCVs or Probes early on can basically be GG. And there are a decent amount of Terran and Protoss players, even in gold, who wall in their front when facing zerg, and forget to watch their back.

Faking an early zerg rush can scare them into siege tanks for defense too, so you can attack more easily with a few mutalisks.

Just a few thoughts.

Played a few more 1v1s tonight in my league. Won the first against a much higher rated player which netted me a bunch of points, but the got destroyed 4 times in a row but only list 1 point or 2 each time. Even though it doesn't hurt my rating, it's demoralizing to get reamed. Ended on a high note though, by beating another ranked player for big points. Marine rush into battlecruisers while sniping his scvs with banshees while assembling my cruiser army. Really could have gone either way until the end when I sent a few thors in as a distraction on his secondary base then cleaned out his main base with cruisers and hurt his Viking swarm bad with the rest of my cruisers while they were transformed into ground form to fight the thors.
I also messaged Certis a couple times to see if he was down for a comp stomp, but apparently my Canadian language skills aren't what they used to be as I didn't get a response.

Played my first two league games, got thrown up against Silver players both times. Another friend of mine has been complaining that his Bronze games keep getting him sent against Silvers too. What's up with that?

Lost both, obviously, but the first one I think I held my own well. He had Banshees hitting my probes, so I decided to hit his base. I did a lot of damage, but couldn't deal with his flyers in the end. In retrospect I should have built up a second force while the first was distracting him, instead I sent all the units I was producing in to attack his base.

Second one I was reamed.

This is a basic 1-1-1 build order as explained by HD Starcraft:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XUUp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OicJh...

The idea is simple: build one Barracks, one Factory, and then one Starport and go from there, usually with Banshees or Vikings. It is a useful BO to know because it forms the backbone of Terran tech-up builds, so it's useful to be able to know which buildings you need to go to without thinking.

Execution is simple. Without going into specifics, you build SCVs and Barracks conservatively, then double up on Refineries as soon as the first supply depot is done. Then Factory after Barracks, and Starport after Factory. The basic build is as simple as can be, but remarkably powerful on maps with long walk distances and short fly distances.

It's important to know the timing on this both for and against, so I'd advise everyone to try it out against an AI. This will give you a rough idea on when you need to start putting up anti-air defense if you suspect that the enemy is going for air.

Luggage wrote:

Today's favorite game. I know the "talker" type from WC3 and knew, what he was up to. If you watch closely, I make a few mistakes at the beginning, because I considered letting him talk to me. It was a close game, but he made one vital mistake and didn't like the results.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people play competitive games and then somehow fail to understand that the only measure of success is success, not how awesome what you were *about* to do would have been.

Actually, I take that back. "So close!" disease is easy to catch. It's being a bad sport that I just don't understand. Not so much the first emergency base as the sh*t talking. And, well, yeah, the second emergency base was a total dick move. This is clearly the kind of guy who would have sailed his CC around the map and forced you to develop air units if he'd been playing terran.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

Played my first two league games, got thrown up against Silver players both times. Another friend of mine has been complaining that his Bronze games keep getting him sent against Silvers too. What's up with that?

There's a difference between your league ranking and the ranking used for your matchmaking. The ranking in bronze, silver, gold etc. is to give people a graspable and motivating environment. "12th of your division" sounds better than "34156th on the server". For matchmaking, your internal ranking is used, which I believe is the number of points you can find when going into "Leagues and Ladders" (middle button on the top left) and then "My Leagues". When matchmaking, the system tries to give you an opponent at roughly your point value. The longer it has to look for an opponent, the bigger the difference can be. This is when people wrongfully placed into higher divisions come in, who actually belong into a lower one. Their points may not be significantly different from yours, so they get matched up to you. I don't know if it is even possible, but the only way they will end up in the right league would be dropping back down by losing.

I played this one tonight, and was pleased with the outcome.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135261.jpg)

MightyMooquack wrote:

I played this one tonight, and was pleased with the outcome.

IMAGE(http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135261.jpg)

...and he was henceforth named Mighty "Iron Sky" Mooquack. Way to show those turtling guys who's boss.

Any body got any tips for zerg vs terrans? A combined marine maurader with maybe a seige tank utterly destroys me.

breander wrote:

Any body got any tips for zerg vs terrans? A combined marine maurader with maybe a seige tank utterly destroys me.

zergling/hydra would work well against that kind of force.