WoW: The Meatshield Inn

Kannon wrote:

I'm gonna throw in with Zablocki here, personally. Tanking, like healing, is not a math problem with one right answer.

There isn't one right answer, no, but there is generally one important question - which in turn has one right answer. Your average time to live (similarly expressed in the run-into-the-ground phrase "effective health") is king really no matter what. The worry that I personally have is that while everyone is very keen on pointing out how mean and standoffish Seth is, Krindle's posts about tanking do seem to have "tell those dirty stam stackers how dumb they are" as a primary goal, with information coming in second. In WoW, just like music, movies, or anything, be wary of the people who seem to form an opinion simply to stand out of the crowd. It doesn't mean they're wrong, but it can mean they're not being fair.

What I do know, from running my own paladin, is that despite Zablocki having an ego the size of a small(ish...) planet, he does know what he's doing. And, from running with advice from him, I've done pretty well. Def, even over cap, is a great mitigation stat. Paladins block, a ton, so anything that helps them out, helps reduce damage overall.

For heroics for a Paladin, defense beyond the cap is pretty much a waste unless you are in unfathomably horrible gear. With a decent mix of ilvl 200-232 epics (from heroics and badges) and Holy Shield up, you will block 100% of incoming physical swings that don't get parried or dodged (or roll a miss). Adding more defense does literally nothing useful since you're simply shrinking the % range on which a hit is blocked (and in this case completely mitigated) and expanding the miss/parry/dodge range (which has the same effect, except parry mildly hastens your next swing).

There is something to be said for using socket colors to fill out hit (yellow) and strength (red) to help increase and/or smooth out your threat generation, but for a Paladin in heroics, they're practically needless. With a correct rotation, you should be flying ahead of your dps in threat, even with a few missed swings here and there. If this isn't the case, it's likely due to either 1) a HUGE gear deficit or 2) Your dps are just being jerks. Neither of which will be solved by a few gems in either direction.

In raids, your effective health becomes the single most important stat, hands down. Too much damage is unavoidable, avoidance is unreliable in the face of ever-increasing boss damage, and giving healers a more predicable buffer of damage is really just the best thing to do since mana is of such little concern in raids right now. While gemming and enchanting becomes a game of degrees, we can say all day "Well gemming str/stam here instead of straight stam isn't going to break things either way", however, it does mean that there should be an overall philosophy to guide those little choices as they add up. Hyperbole, while fun -

Krindle wrote:

I've done the math. Apparently for some people, that extra 500 health is going to outweigh even 5% avoidance, or actually taking consistent damage.

... doesn't really get us anywhere. Of course 5% avoidance is better than 500 health, but I've yet to see any choice handed to me on that scale. The problem comes not from the fact that people raise their stamina over all other things, it's that they do it and don't really know why besides "lookit mah hueg HP bar!!"

Plus, what we're missing here, is he's a damned paladin. We're sort of awesome tanks at the moment, so unless stuff goes very wrong, 1 or 2 points is not going to make a difference. And if stuff goes that wrong, those 1 or 2 points don't often save you for long.

Yes, in the end it really won't matter. It's really kind of funny to see this thread waffle between "this is what is best" and "what is best doesn't really matter" as the 'true wisdom'. Hell, right now someone could go into ICC25 fully socketed with spirit and spellpower, do a full Kingslayer run, and say "see I've hit upon the hidden truths of tanking, I had no problem with this setup" if someone wanted to.

You missed a couple quote tags in there. That or you're really good at arguing with yourself.

IMAGE(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/928830626_5PypJ-L.jpg)

Coincidence?

This could go in the BHA guild thread, or here, and I figure I'll be less likely to get "do whatever you want" suggestions in this thread. Some background, then a request for thoughts.

I've recently gotten back into playing my prot warrior, who I mostly levelled by tanking instances. It's an enjoyable change of pace from my only max level character (an affliction warlock).

He's 62ish now and has largely languished in the high 50-s, low-60s. The problem is that he's Horde on a server that my ex-guildmates have transferred from. If I want to play again, and I want to play as a tank, I can either play only with strangers (not fun), start over from lvl 1 (don't want to do that pre-Cataclysm), pay for a server and/or faction transfer, or roll a Death Knight.

Rolling a Death Knight on a server with an active alliance guild is appealing - it's a lot cheaper than paying for a server & faction transfer, and I effectively pick up at the same point I left off.

So here are the questions: As an occasional solo-er and tanker of 5-mans, what's the pro/con of prot Warrior vs/ DK. How differently do they play? Does Blackhand/Alliance have too many or two few of one or the other? How much will I miss having heirloom gear/cold weather flying if I go Death Knight?

Most of the analysis I can find is targeted at soloing or end game raids, and goes way over my head - this is the highest level tank character I've ever had, and I only occasionally raid.

ChrisGwinn wrote:

This could go in the BHA guild thread, or here, and I figure I'll be less likely to get "do whatever you want" suggestions in this thread. Some background, then a request for thoughts.

I've recently gotten back into playing my prot warrior, who I mostly levelled by tanking instances. It's an enjoyable change of pace from my only max level character (an affliction warlock).

He's 62ish now and has largely languished in the high 50-s, low-60s. The problem is that he's Horde on a server that my ex-guildmates have transferred from. If I want to play again, and I want to play as a tank, I can either play only with strangers (not fun), start over from lvl 1 (don't want to do that pre-Cataclysm), pay for a server and/or faction transfer, or roll a Death Knight.

Rolling a Death Knight on a server with an active alliance guild is appealing - it's a lot cheaper than paying for a server & faction transfer, and I effectively pick up at the same point I left off.

So here are the questions: As an occasional solo-er and tanker of 5-mans, what's the pro/con of prot Warrior vs/ DK. How differently do they play? Does Blackhand/Alliance have too many or two few of one or the other? How much will I miss having heirloom gear/cold weather flying if I go Death Knight?

Most of the analysis I can find is targeted at soloing or end game raids, and goes way over my head - this is the highest level tank character I've ever had, and I only occasionally raid.

Regarding what the guild has, I think that really doesn't matter. Maybe it would matter if you intended to do lots of raiding ... but from what I have seen in forum discussions and guild chat, even then its not much of a consideration.

I've never had heirloom gear, since I like to get characters into the 70's, quit for a bit, then re-roll, but judging from what I can see others do in heirloom gear compared to those without it, you'll probably miss it ( I would). I would also greatly miss cold weather flying ... though getting money isn't too difficult so that should be fixable relatively quickly.

absurddoctor wrote:

I would also greatly miss cold weather flying ... though getting money isn't too difficult so that should be fixable relatively quickly.

You can get it at 68 with the Tome of Cold Weather Flight heirloom, instead of having to wait until 77.

ChrisGwinn wrote:

So here are the questions: As an occasional solo-er and tanker of 5-mans, what's the pro/con of prot Warrior vs/ DK. How differently do they play? Does Blackhand/Alliance have too many or two few of one or the other? How much will I miss having heirloom gear/cold weather flying if I go Death Knight?

Most of the analysis I can find is targeted at soloing or end game raids, and goes way over my head - this is the highest level tank character I've ever had, and I only occasionally raid.

I've got very little experience with DKs, but I found a prot warrior to be more straightforward to spec and to play (and to heal). DKs do get a number of nice abilities like death grip, though. Might be worth rolling a DK, getting him to 60 (it won't take long) and try tanking a couple of instances, then see which you character you prefer.

How much you'll miss cold weather flying at 68 depends a lot on how you're planning on leveling, I think. If you're planning on doing it by questing, then flying reduces the downtime in the leveling process enormously. As a tank, though, you can level primarily by doing back-to-back instances - I think the longest wait I had while leveling through OL and northrend was something like 4 minutes, and normally they pop as soon as you hit the queue button. In that case, flying is only a very minor benefit.

Sonicator wrote:

I've got very little experience with DKs, but I found a prot warrior to be more straightforward to spec and to play (and to heal). DKs do get a number of nice abilities like death grip, though. Might be worth rolling a DK, getting him to 60 (it won't take long) and try tanking a couple of instances, then see which you character you prefer.

That's a pretty fair statement.

A DKs' pretty fun in the 50s PvP bracket, too. There's not as many of them out there, and they totally own the bracket. Epeen FTW.

I've been having a blast with PvP on my DK from 60-68. I have very little PvP experience, but have been having a good time being the bane of casters everywhere. 5 second silence plus Death Grip plus Ice Chains (or whatever its called) and my team eats them alive. Plus everyone digs a little Horn of Winter. Druids are usually the death of me; though, I have not figured out why yet...
/shark jump

A question that seems obvious, but I'll ask it anyway:

I'm taking my paladin tank through regular (not heroic) instances, where the defense cap is 535.

Right now in my protection gear (it's mostly i187 and i200), I'm at 531 -- that's four short, if you're short on math :P. That's after using blue quality gems (specifically, four Enduring Forest Emeralds (+8 def/+12 stam) in my blue sockets), but with a Titanium Shield Spike (+dam) instead of the +20 defense enchant to my shield.

The question: Is it acceptable to use Elixir of Mighty Defense (+45 defense) to make up the difference? With the flask, I'm at 576 defense -- well above the regular and heroic cap.

If so, when does it become socially unacceptable to use it?

Along those same lines, what's the proper flask/elixir combo for tanks in heroics and the 10-mans? I'm assuming Stoneblood (+1,300 health)?

P.S. Here's me, if anyone wants to recall what a Starter Tank looks like. I logged out last night in my sub-uber tanking costume.

Get the defense enchant. You don't want to be spending any cash on consumables for heroics.

In general, I'd gem pure stamina in blue sockets, def/stam in yellow, and pure stam in Red sockets(except for the 1 red you need for the meta, in which case stam/exp or stam/dodge is required).

Truthfully, though, you'll be over the cap within a week anyway, so gemming stam is probably a better bet.

If so, when does it become socially unacceptable to use it?

When you forget to use one and get critted. Become naturally crit immune and then find other potions that suit you. Don't bother with Flasks in heroics. It's just a waste of money.

Dump the shield spike. Replace it with the defense or the titanium plating. You're a paladin and as such should have no threat issues aside from being outgeared by overzealous DPS. Ret. Aura is about a bajillion times better than that shield spike.

Enix wrote:

The question: Is it acceptable to use Elixir of Mighty Defense (+45 defense) to make up the difference? With the flask, I'm at 576 defense -- well above the regular and heroic cap.

Actually, it would be somewhat less, unless my memory is completely going (possible, as I have a pounding headache). The elixir gives you 45 defense rating, which should translate to somewhere around 9 defense. Still enough to push you over, but not as big as it appears you were expecting.

Enix wrote:

Right now in my protection gear (it's mostly i187 and i200), I'm at 531 -- that's four short, if you're short on math :P. That's after using blue quality gems (specifically, four Enduring Forest Emeralds (+8 def/+12 stam) in my blue sockets), but with a Titanium Shield Spike (+dam) instead of the +20 defense enchant to my shield.

The question: Is it acceptable to use Elixir of Mighty Defense (+45 defense) to make up the difference? With the flask, I'm at 576 defense -- well above the regular and heroic cap.

One thing to keep in mind is that Defense score is different than your Defense Rating. The Defense Rating you have is what you find when you mouse over the Defense score number. For instance, you might end up having a Defense score of 540, but that's actually 689 Defense Rating.

Like Robkid mentioned before me, the flask won't put you up to 576 Defense score, but instead, probably around 540 Defense score (likely a little less). Well enough for normal/heroic bosses anyways.

In normal lvl 80 instances, I think you don't even need 535 Defense anyways. I thought the last normal boss was level 81 (530 Defense needed), but if it is lvl 82, then 535 is what you need to not be critically hit. This would then be the same as heroic bosses, as you only need 535 until you start raiding (then at 540).

Overall, being at 531 and needing 535, you're looking at a 0.16% chance to be critically hit. That's 1 attack out of 625 that would crit you. If anything, it'll likely cause your Ardent Defender to proc, so as long as you have that up going into a boss fight, you should be fine until you get a new piece of gear to put you over.

The short answer is, it doesn't matter. Are you clearing the content? Are you and your party members enjoying yourselves? Then who cares how you do it. Go have fun. Zab's math is right on target, too. Don't worry about it.

Now, if you want to know where to improve, then we'd need to know more about what your current problems are. Are you getting crunched without being able to do anything about it? (Which you shouldn't be, since Ardent Defender is the best talent evar.) Are you being slowly ground down over time? Are you not able to hold threat on targets you know are the focus of DPS? Can't keep a group of mobs off the healer or overzealous DPS? All those problems call for different solutions.

If you're looking for general advice, I would first suggest finding out where you are on the tank gear scale. It helped me figure out which advise to accept directly from my friends (sitting at 4) and how to change it for me (comfortably at 3). The thread on gemming on Maintankadin is great for deciding which of your sockets to match, and which ones to just stack stamina. Just those two posts should help you decide with much more confidence on how you should gear up.

Have fun!

Reaper81 wrote:

Dump the shield spike. Replace it with the defense or the titanium plating. You're a paladin and as such should have no threat issues aside from being outgeared by overzealous DPS. Ret. Aura is about a bajillion times better than that shield spike.

Fair enough. I think I slapped it on originally because my blacksmith could make it but not the Titanium Plating. The +def to shield makes more sense in the short run anyway.

Looking at it more closely, I can then dump a couple of the +def/+stam gems for some +hit, which is the stat that needs the most help at the moment. I had chosen a couple of those gems in the first place to bolster by expertise through socket bonuses. But the cape that dropped during the Fire Festival will take care of expertise for now.

If my math's right, I'll come out exactly at 535 defense, and I'll have potions in case I stumble into a heroic.

(edited to remove html abuse)

robkid wrote:

The elixir gives you 45 defense rating, which should translate to somewhere around 9 defense.

D'oh! Thanks for clarifying that.

What's with the wacky tanking stats anyway? There's two different defense numbers, two different expertise figures, etc. I'm more used to DPS, where something that gives you one point of agility gives you ... one point of agility.

Pex-Corrh wrote:

The short answer is, it doesn't matter.

Well, it's yes and no for me.

No, because I haven't run into any obvious failures. I had a blast tanking Ahune during the Fire Festival, and in most of the groups I was by far the least-geared character. (Yeah, I know you don't really need a tank to do this boss. But the healer and ranged DPSers seemed to appreciate not having to wear the mobs.)

Yes, because I want to know how to play my class. I'm not the guy who's just going to rush into stuff. That's true for RL and gaming, and you folks are an excellent source on tanking. I really appreciate the guidance.

I'm clearly a 1 on the tank gear scale. Thanks for that link; the gearing guide link is solid, too. (Interesting take on agility there.) My goal is to hit 2.5 or so before Cata comes out.

Think of the ratings as being more like a DPSers hit and crit ratings. Ratings (defense, expertise, crit, hit, etc) were developed to let Blizzard scale how much "rating" gave you a point of a given stat based on your level, in order to help them swiftly erase ilvl advantages at a previous "end game" stage. In vanilla WoW, they didn't exist, you just had items that increased your stats by a percentages (equip: increases your change to hit by 1%) -- which, had they left that untouched, would've given gear at level 70 an unnaceptably high level of hit and crit.

Yes, because I want to know how to play my class. I'm not the guy who's just going to rush into stuff. That's true for RL and gaming, and you folks are an excellent source on tanking. I really appreciate the guidance.

Sounds like you already know how to play your class, and want some help in gearing your class. Unfortunately, given the last couple pages of popularity pile-ons of suspect advice, I wouldn't consider this forum an excellent source on gearing, although it's not so awful that you'd die immediately upon following it.. To re-iterate, once you're defense capped, stacking stamina is the best and easiest all-around advice for your gear level available. Even Blizzard says this is the case for current content.

Seth wrote:

Sounds like you already know how to play your class, and want some help in gearing your class. Unfortunately, given the last couple pages of popularity pile-ons of suspect advice, I wouldn't consider this forum an excellent source on gearing, although it's not so awful that you'd die immediately upon following it.. To re-iterate, once you're defense capped, stacking stamina is the best and easiest all-around advice for your gear level available. Even Blizzard says this is the case for current content.

Easiest, yes. Best, extremely debatable.

If that's the post I think it is, Blizzard acknowledge that it is what the majority of the playerbase did, which is true. Same thing happened in TBC too. Doesn't mean it's right, just means it's easy to follow without thinking for yourself. There are many excellent sources out there that show different pros and cons to gems and enchants and gear choices depending on what each player wants. Level 4 on Maintankadin that Pex-Corrh linked shows exactly what I'm talking about, where the multiple sets of gear come in. Typically, you'd eventually get to a point where you'd have a well-balanced set, with about 10 other items in there to customize per encounter. That's for all that endgame stuff though.

You could always do what we did, and find out what the healers you tend to run with are thinking. If they prefer that you have a high health pool so that they can just keep spamming 2 knowing you'll always need heals nonstop, go ahead and stack stamina. If you want a bit more survivability under your own control, go for avoidance. If you want the best of both worlds, work on a well-rounded set that doesn't ignore threat or mitigation. At the early stages of tanking heroics, there are alot of cases where it'll be tougher to stay ahead of your dps and constantly get things pulled off of you, as well as 'accidental' pulls they cause you to bite off more than you can chew. The mitigation and threat come in real handy in those cases. Stamina's not going to make sure that much needed taunt isn't resisted, nor is it going to help when you have 8 mobs beating on you at once, causing you to take 16 hits in under 2.5 seconds.

It's going to end up being what you and those you play with prefer the most. I communicate with my raid constantly to see how I can help them out more without causing unnecessary wipes. If you want to be successful, I suggest you do the same.

Zablocki19 wrote:

Level 4 on Maintankadin that Pex-Corrh linked shows exactly what I'm talking about, where the multiple sets of gear come in. Typically, you'd eventually get to a point where you'd have a well-balanced set, with about 10 other items in there to customize per encounter. That's for all that endgame stuff though.

The Maintankadin thread also states to gem for pure stam unless the set bonus is 12 stam at level 4, and to only match sets with non-pure stam gems if you're working on a threat or block set.

Zablocki19 wrote:

If they prefer that you have a high health pool so that they can just keep spamming 2 knowing you'll always need heals nonstop, go ahead and stack stamina. If you want a bit more survivability under your own control, go for avoidance. If you want the best of both worlds, work on a well-rounded set that doesn't ignore threat or mitigation.

Sigh. We went over this earlier in the thread. Avoidance doesn't add any control. If you're sacrificing mitigation for avoidance, it makes you more RNG dependent, which means you might have more periods where you don't need heals, but you'll also go through periods where you will need even more heals than a more mitigation-based approach. The problem now is that

Mitigation means that you can take more hits before dying. Avoidance means that you MIGHT not be hit a certain percentage of the time.

Avoidance, at the cost of mitigation, leads to spiky damage, which isn't good for healers, because it leads to wasted heals and forces them to react to damage rather than anticipate it. From a design perspective, it also forces Blizzard to either: A) make bosses hit like trucks on speed; B) add Sunwell/ICC Radiance debuffs; or C) a combination of the two(Brutallus).

Mitigation, at the cost of avoidance, leads to more consistent damage. While it's arguable whether or not it's actually more damage(RNG is "fun"!), it's still easier for healers to deal with, because the tank is taking more consistent, smaller hits.

You could always do what we did, and find out what the healers you tend to run with are thinking.

Isn't this the only real right answer?

cube wrote:

Avoidance doesn't add any control.

Absolutely it does, but I'm also looking at this the same way as Enix, from a paladin tanking perspective. Bears, DKs and Warriors don't have a very powerful option that paladins do, being able to make every attack on you a block even after the ICC Debuff. Having the ability to not only avoid a good chuck of attacks, but make sure that every one that does connect is significantly reduced is definitely control. Especially when going with stam-stacking, which is sure to leave you open for about 10% of the incoming attacks. Is it possibly that I could still get hit 4 times in a row? sure it is, RNG is random afterall, but being able to still reduce that further, including after the copious amounts of bonus armor you can get, is extremely valuable.

cube wrote:

The Maintankadin thread also states to gem for pure stam unless the set bonus is 12 stam at level 4, and to only match sets with non-pure stam gems if you're working on a threat or block set.

I think I remember reading that it was preferable if you were going for a 1:1 ratio, but just incase I'm wrong, I'll pose this:

+4 stam from a single red socket, gives you the option to include the bonus, providing +10 X, +15 Stam, or going for a straight +30 Stam. With the bonus, you're likely grabbing either strength (BV & AP), and ending up with 19 Stam, or a loss of 11 Stamina on that piece from a Stam-stacking perspective. Without getting into all those buffs and bonuses that increase that by somewhere around 30%, it's safe to say that you're getting less than 200 hit points for that 10 Strength (which also gets very similar buffs/bonuses). In a fight where you are getting hit even 40% of the time, off of 2 second swings, and that most raid fights are going over 5 minutes, you're being hit 60 times.

60 times where you are blocking an additional 5 damage, or a minimum of 300 damage. Overall, less damage than that 1-shot of 200 hit points.

"But 5 damage is so insignificant, how can you argue that being useful at all?"

Simple, that's the low end of the bonuses on tank gear, and a high end for how fast a boss fight goes, and for only a single piece of gear, not including any of the increases that additional strength will get from buffs/talents/etc. Both of these extrapolated over the rest of your gear are going to provide a net benefit. In very few cases will that 200 hit points, or even 2,000 hit points save you, especially when looking at how most level 4 tanks are pushing 70k - 80k health now. Aside from the rare situation of shadow-tanking on the Blood Princes, that's well above what you need to survive a good number of jolts before going down.

I do consider the majority of information on Maintankadin to be pretty solid, but there's some things that just aren't enough for me. Whether you toss this into that 'personal preference' category is up to you, but like I said:

ELewis17 wrote:
You could always do what we did, and find out what the healers you tend to run with are thinking.

Isn't this the only real right answer?

Yes, yes it is, and they like how we roll. I tend to make sure we're on the same page often, so that if they find that I'm taking too much damage from a particular mechanic, or we're having trouble getting through a particular area, that I know about it right away and correct it. I'll let you know when that happens though.

Zablocki19 wrote:

I do consider the majority of information on Maintankadin to be pretty solid, but there's some things that just aren't enough for me.

I deleted 8 responses to this, because it's so sterling it stands on its own.

Absolutely it does, but I'm also looking at this the same way as Enix, from a paladin tanking perspective. Bears, DKs and Warriors don't have a very powerful option that paladins do, being able to make every attack on you a block even after the ICC Debuff.

Blocking is mitigation. It's not avoidance. Avoidance is when you avoid 100% of the damage. This is when you dodge, parry, or the boss misses.

Since crushing blows have been taken off the table, blocking means you just take less damage than you would have otherwise. It's effectively the same thing as the Bear and DK passive abilities, both of which have passive, percentage based damage reduction.

You do not control avoidance. You're entirely at the mercy of the RNG for it.

cube wrote:
Absolutely it does, but I'm also looking at this the same way as Enix, from a paladin tanking perspective. Bears, DKs and Warriors don't have a very powerful option that paladins do, being able to make every attack on you a block even after the ICC Debuff.

Blocking is mitigation. It's not avoidance. Avoidance is when you avoid 100% of the damage. This is when you dodge, parry, or the boss misses.

Since crushing blows have been taken off the table, blocking means you just take less damage than you would have otherwise. It's effectively the same thing as the Bear and DK passive abilities, both of which have passive, percentage based damage reduction.

The point I'm making is that avoidance does allow paladins to take advantage of a full-time-blocked-damage scenerio. It's no longer a chance to block. It's either you fully avoid the attack, or you block it. No more regular hits to contend with. Getting additional avoidance, such as from gemming or enchants, allows you to get to that point. Without it, you're left with that open gap of normal damaging hits, and the chance to either avoid, block, or get hit for the whole shebang.

EDIT: Yes, avoidance on its own is not control. But I never look at a stat on its own.

Just as a quick note on red sockets, agility is better to gem for than strength. The BV is nice, but the dodge and armor from agility beat it.

ELewis17 wrote:
You could always do what we did, and find out what the healers you tend to run with are thinking.

Isn't this the only real right answer?

As a Resto Shaman, absolutely. And across the board, I've run with two kinds of tanks, Krin's kind, and the mainstream's kind. While they're both boring as hell to heal, Krin's kind of tanks are more boring.

A gemming update:

If you'll recall, this latest round in the thread started when I went out looking for 4 more points of defense to get me to 535.

So I dumped the shield spike and put the +20 defense enchant on my shield. And because I figured that would get me 535, I replaced two +8 def/+12 stam gems with two +16 hit gems.

I started this exercise with 531 defense. I ended it with ... 531 defense.

I can see why Blizzard is dumping defense for Cata. What a stupid, stupid stat.

On the plus side, I've got more hit, which is always a good thing when I'm short of the 8 percent cap. I'll stick with the gems I've got, use the Elixir to patch the small crack (I've got an alchemist/herbalist, so pots are never an issue) and hope some better gear with +def will fall from the sky.

Enix wrote:

So I dumped the shield spike and put the +20 defense enchant on my shield. And because I figured that would get me 535, I replaced two +8 def/+12 stam gems with two +16 hit gems.

I started this exercise with 531 defense. I ended it with ... 531 defense.

You gained a grand total of 4 defense rating. That's equivalent to about .8 defense. In all honesty, you probably shouldn't have dropped the def/stam gems for the hit, as hit isn't really a necessary stat, especially for pallies. Since you're swinging so quickly, a white hit miss isn't that bad, especially compared to a DK or bear, where an initial miss or parry can screw the DPS on a DPS race fight. I've lost count of the number of times our bear tank had a freak miss or parry on his initial maul, leading to me pulling aggro due to an unlucky 10k wrath crit.

Practically, I have a few suggestions for gear:
1. Get the badge belt. At 28 conquest badges, it's probably the cheapest piece available, and will give you a HUGE boost.
2. Run regular ToC 5-man and heroic Azjol-Nerub until your eyes bleed. Both ToC and AN have the only +stam pre-raid trinkets available. These are also very easy to get. Either one should replace the DMC:Greatness.
3. Invest in a pair of Saronite Swordbreakers. These crafted bracers are the best pre-raid tanking bracers available.

cube wrote:

You gained a grand total of 4 defense rating. That's equivalent to about .8 defense.

Hence my frustration. A point of defense should equal a point of defense. Same with expertise. I'm sure Blizzard has its reasons for assigning two different numbers to one stat, but I don't see 'em.

Thanks for the gear suggestions, Cube -- I haven't done any research on anything above i200 gear, and both look like excellent choices for me.