Come all ye self-styled chefs and kitchen users, we must talk.

Luggage wrote:

Do you mean a freely formed loaf or an actual baguette?

What's a difference? LOL! I just meant to bake your bread without a mould. I'm very curious to hear your results.

Well this is a standard loaf in central and eastern Europe and this is a baguette, a special kind of bread from France. Baguettes are traditionally all wheat, while the normal loaf can vary from all wheat to all rye or wholemeal and even coarse grains in the dough.

My first two loafs were free form and while the first one kept its shape due to being way too dry, the second one spread out and I got a fairly flat loaf in the end. Once I'll get taste and porosity to the point where I am totally fine with it, I'll get me one or two of these.

Question to the more advanced bakers: when baking without yeast, do you knead more than once? I used a little yeast for the first 3 loafs, but did not have any for the fourth, so the porosity was rather bad. I suppose I have to knead, let it rise for an hour, knead again etc. three or four times when going for a loaf without yeast?

I just started my new sourdough starter. I took pics but am not posting them so far because, well, everyone knows how mixture of water and flour looks like, right? Anyway, some notes for later and also to make myself a total fool if I fail:

50g "strong" wheat flour + 50g organic rye flour + 100g water + tablespoon of dextrose for those free-roaming bacteria that need some quick fix. No grapes, apple peel and other stuff to get extra wild yeast in, I love keeping things simple. 1:1 flour/water ratio feels fine, looks like a denser batter and makes future feeding easy.

Notes on ingredients: water has been boiled over and cooled down to get rid of chlorine compounds and other possible impurities, just in case. Remember chlorine stops bacteria growth and yeast are bacteria, so, you know. Use "strong" or bread-type wheat flour (with high amount of gluten) - normal all-purpose flour will do the job in the starter, but will mess up your loaves, as it won't create sufficient gluten network. I started with rye flour because here in central Europe the smell of rye flour is basically synonymous with the smell of bread. Rye has little gluten, though, so it makes flatter and denser loaves (see the pic Luggage posted). The Beast (that's the starter's name) now sits in a big open jar on a kitchen counter away from draft.

To do tomorrow: throw away half the starter and replace it with fresh mixture. Also: things may happen. Or not. We'll see.

Day 2: Surprisingly enough, the starter was bubbling in less than 24 hours. I blame it on the dextrose boost and current hot days (over 30 Celsius). The smell is rather nice, I can mostly sense rye with a faint smell of spilled beer (immediately brings back memories of the months spent waitering), both are a good sign. No acidity so far, which is ok, lactic bacteria are most probably still fighting with other non-yeastly beasties.

Behold the freshly conceived Beast!

IMAGE(http://i48.tinypic.com/rj486o.jpg)

This is the state before I threw half of it away and replaced with fresh mixture of 100g flour and 100 ml water. Rise and rise, Beast! It seems that it might be even able to participate in baking this weekend.

Morning update (I do the feeding evenings): the bubbling continues and the smell is becoming acidic.

So I got up this morning to have two slices of loaf number four, but it was mouldy on the bottom. I kept it inside a linen cloth inside a plastic bag, so I guess it was my own fault. The good thing is, Bernd can come out of hibernation earlier and I can try my ideas on loaf number five. Although number three was okayish, I have yet to produce something passable on a rye basis.

Luggage wrote:

So I got up this morning to have two slices of loaf number four, but it was mouldy on the bottom. I kept it inside a linen cloth inside a plastic bag, so I guess it was my own fault. The good thing is, Bernd can come out of hibernation earlier and I can try my ideas on loaf number five. Although number three was okayish, I have yet to produce something passable on a rye basis.

What exactly is the problem with rye you are having, flat loaves? If you add too much rye flour you'll get a dense bread, since it doesn't have gluten. You should try and experiment with the ratio of wheat/rye, 1:1 still produces a decently rising loaf. Also, rye flour seems to soak up more water so you might try and add slightly more water.

Plastic bag is a problem, linen/paper should be fine. I keep my loaves in a ventilated stainless bread container with no further packaging and it keeps for 5-6 days before going mouldy.

How easy is it make an entirely rye loaf (by any method)? My fiancee has started having trouble with wheat and I've seen some very dense looking rye-only stuff in the supermarket, but would love to make some custom bread for her (that doesn't break the bank, that stuff was the cost of a fancy normal loaf for a little bag).

It's not hard, although I'd recommend, just like wanderingtaoist said, to go 50:50 rye/some lighter flour. If you can get your hands on spelt, I'd go with that, since it's fairly similar to wheat due to both having the same "ancestors" but wheat having been overbread in the last few hundred years. I also read somewhere, you should never have more than 20-25% of unsoured rye flour in your bread. So my recommendation would be: start your sourdough with rye and water. Feed with rye. When making your loaf, mix in the same weight of spelt/wheat flour and about 10g of fresh yeast per 500g of non-soured flour (only for the first month or so of your sourdoughs life). You can skip the yeast (maybe your gf has problems with that?), but then you'll have to knead, let it rise, knead etc. a couple of times.

Do you have those flour types like 405, 1050 1150 etc. in the UK? Then take something with a higher number. It's more coarse and has more latent bacteria in there. Generally the higher the number, the more suited it'll be for making bread.

Edit: Just looked it up. No matter where you live, the higher flour types are generally the ones you'll want for bread.

Generally flour intended for breadmaking over here has 'strong' somewhere in the name, not sure if there is further fine-grained classification if you look to more specialised stock though.

Thanks for the advice. Seems sourdough is the way to go for rye based breads, so I'll have to give it a try. I think having a starter staring at me all the time would probably encourage me to make more of the stuff, which is only a good thing:)

So today I tried my hand at beef brisket barbeque. It turned out fantastic, so here are some pictures:

The brisket after it came out of the smoker.
IMAGE(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/AnimeJ2/DSCN0940.jpg)

Here's a plate the wife fixed for me. It cooked to a little over 150F, medium well, so the red you're seeing is the result of 6 hours of slow cooking with smoke and heat, AKA the smoke ring.
IMAGE(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/AnimeJ2/DSCN0942.jpg)

And in other culinary news, it's been a while since I made pizza from scratch start to finish, but here is the delicious result awaiting cutting on Emma:
IMAGE(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e301/AnimeJ2/DSCN0746.jpg)

Hmm, I've a weird question about sourdough, are the rye and the wheat based critters different?
Meaning if I were to want a rye based sourdough, should I have both a rye and a wheat based starter?

AnimeJ wrote:

MMmmmmmmm!!!!!!!

Seriously, I am going to hide in your trunk and come live at your house when I see you for the OH S&T. I'll pay rent.

Luggage wrote:

Question to the more advanced bakers: when baking without yeast, do you knead more than once? I used a little yeast for the first 3 loafs, but did not have any for the fourth, so the porosity was rather bad. I suppose I have to knead, let it rise for an hour, knead again etc. three or four times when going for a loaf without yeast?

Never knead more than twice. The usual order is knead, prove/rest, knock down, knead, shape, short prove/rest, bake. Doing too many cycles of proving will destroy the protein matrix in the bread, more of a disaster for wheat based loaves.

Also worth noting, yeast are not bacteria (although chlorine will kill them). It shouldn't matter what kind flour your starter is made from as the bulk of the flour the bread is made from is more important.

pignoli wrote:

How easy is it make an entirely rye loaf (by any method)? My fiancee has started having trouble with wheat and I've seen some very dense looking rye-only stuff in the supermarket, but would love to make some custom bread for her (that doesn't break the bank, that stuff was the cost of a fancy normal loaf for a little bag).

its not that hard but it will always be very dense, also if the problem is that she has is a gluten intolerance then switching to spelt flour may not help.

Nosferatu wrote:

Hmm, I've a weird question about sourdough, are the rye and the wheat based critters different?
Meaning if I were to want a rye based sourdough, should I have both a rye and a wheat based starter?

The yeasts and bacteria that live on wheat and rye are probably very fractionally different, it really shouldn't make any difference what your starter is made up of.

Luggage wrote:

Do you have those flour types like 405, 1050 1150 etc. in the UK? Then take something with a higher number. It's more coarse and has more latent bacteria in there. Generally the higher the number, the more suited it'll be for making bread.

Actually the numbers indicate the wholegrain content, the higher the number the less refined the flour is (contains more wheat germ). Flour Strength on the other hand is an measure of how much gluten is present in the flour, high gluten flours are usually best for bread making.

Some Pro-tips on sourdough starters from On Food And Cooking, here's a summary of the passage in the book:

Sourdough breads are hard because the bacteria in your culture grow much faster than the yeasts when you prove the bread. They inhibit the yeasts gas production limiting the amount of rising and then chew up the gluten making the bread very dense. The key to success is maintaining a sourdough is getting the right yeast to bacteria make up in the starter; The advice is:

Refresh your starter regularly; twice a day or more for best results: add new flour, water and aerate vigourously. A liquid starter requires more attention than a more solid doughy one. The new flour and water dilutes the acids and growth inhibitors that build up and the aeration provides the oxygen the yeasts need to grow. The more frequently your dived and refresh your starter the greater ratio of yeasts you'll have and the better your starter will leaven your bread. Typically your starter will be quite acid and in those conditions bacteria grow best at 86-96F/30-35C but the yeasts grow best at 68-78/20-25C. So your starter should be kept in a cool environment and when you make bread the bread should also prove at a similar temperature. Lastly sourdough breads should be well salted as salt prevents the bacteria from breaking down the gluten

Diary of the Beast, days 3,4 and 5:

The everyday "throw out half of the starter, replace with fresh mixture" continued every day, although I fed the starter only wheat flour since day 5, when it was already frothing rabidly and scaling the walls of its generous jar. Day six was the cherry-popping day: I made dough which was 70:30 wheat:rye and could have been perfect, but my sister-in-law forgot to put it in the fridge after 2.5 hours while I was away. The resulting loaf was therefore quite flat as the starter couldn't quite raise it 2nd time and it was a bit sourer than I'd want it to be. Hence no photos: I'll make another loaf this weekend and post the photo. The Beast is resting in the fridge, well fed and ready to serve.

For those who don't care to read all the posts about the starter: it's very simple, you just need flour, water and patience. If you are one of those who always wanted to try it, just go for it.

So we've finally finished with the bulk of our kitchen remodel. On the to-do list are a tile backsplash and glass in the hutch doors.
We found an awesome deal on cabinets, so our full-overlay cherry with full-extension, quiet-close drawers were as much as partial-overlay maple low-end cabinets cost at Home Depot.
Counters are Santa Cecilia granite. We went with black appliances because I hate cleaning stainless. Floors are ceramic tile.
Stove, microwave, prep area:
IMAGE(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1748/kitchen1.jpg)
IMAGE(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4222/kitchen2v.jpg)
Sink, dishwasher and wet prep:
IMAGE(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5003/kitchen3.jpg)
Fridge and pantry:
IMAGE(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9425/kitchen4.jpg)
Hutch:
IMAGE(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2917/kitchen5.jpg)
Closeup of the sink. It's a huge single-basin composite/aggregate affair. The material is similar to the branded solid-surface countertops.
IMAGE(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5843/kitchen6.jpg)

I present to you the fifth spawn of Bernd (my sourdough), the three pound monster of tastiness.

IMAGE(http://www.abload.de/img/bernd513gsz.jpg)

IMAGE(http://www.abload.de/img/bernd52wdsx.jpg)
(Sorry for image quality, only had my bad Nokia phone camera with me.)

Rye sourdough with spelt flour, one and a half tablespoons of salt, that's it. My best loaf yet. Pretty soft crumb, About the right hardness of the crust. Porous enough. Of course it's a little sour and the crust cracked at bit, probably due to the additional fresh yeast I put in. Sadly, I don't own a banneton yet, so the loaf is flatter than I would have liked. If I manage to reproduce this one or two more times, I'll start experimenting with flavours a little bit.

That rye sourdough looks so good! *pauses to wipe drool from corner of mouth*

If I ever make it to a Goodjer S&T (which doesn't seem that unlikely after the events of last week), I may bring one. My long-term plan is first perfecting the bread and then going wild on spreads.

That loaf looks totally pimp.

Luggage wrote:

If I ever make it to a Goodjer S&T (which doesn't seem that unlikely after the events of last week), I may bring one.

Events of last week? A simple link will suffice. Thanks. Oh, and excellent looking loaf.

Grumpicus wrote:
Luggage wrote:

If I ever make it to a Goodjer S&T (which doesn't seem that unlikely after the events of last week), I may bring one.

Events of last week? A simple link will suffice. Thanks. Oh, and excellent looking loaf.

Got a job offer on the Goodjer side of the Atlantic.

The new and improved(TM) Beast provided a fantastic sourdough loaf last weekend. I'll post the pictures soon and bake another loaf on Saturday. The new starter sure is vigorous and able to do some heavy lifting.

The loaf, fresh out of the oven, with the banneton I used for shaping it. It's slightly burnt, but in my family burnt = mmmm, tasty.

IMAGE(http://i31.tinypic.com/hvuue8.jpg)

The crumb. It looks quite dense because of the rye + whole wheat (+ strong bread) flour, but actually tastes very lightly, with a nice nutty flavor provided by the whole flour. In the current heat of about 100F it managed to stay fresh (i.e. hasn't dried out) for five days, then started to go mouldy.

IMAGE(http://i25.tinypic.com/14vlch4.jpg)

That's it, I'm starting my starter tonight!

MoonDragon wrote:

That's it, I'm starting my starter tonight!

One of us, one of us

MoonDragon wrote:

That's it, I'm starting my starter tonight!

Welcome to the club. \o/

baggachipz wrote:

The combination of mussels like that with fries is a Belgian dish called Moules Frites. I've always wanted to try it but haven't found myself in a restaurant that is known to serve a good version of it. Good mussels are really good; bad mussels are really bad. That looks like an awesome dish, I'm hungry now.

If you are in or near the Washington, D.C. area, there is a restaurant owned and run by a Belgian expat. Mannekin Pis is it's name and it is in Olney, MD. Moules Frites is one of my favorite foods.

Phishposer, the Kitchen looks great! When will you be down to do mine?

I (until now) have not had interest in baking. I have been a stove top (in contrast to an 'in stove') kinda guy, but all this bread and cultivation of bacteria are getting me interested in trying.