Wannabe Writers Writing: Revisions, Feedback, Evil Chickens

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Clemenstation: http://docs.google.com/View?id=dckjvrbx_44g4fzdc9w

Sorry about the delay, here. I've been swamped at work.

Thanky kindly! I am also swamped at work, but will take a closer look asap.

Here's the first 28 or so pages of my longest running project. If you don't like midieval business with a dash of fantasy, you may not be interested. I have about 110 pages of content written, whether or not all of it is going to be used.

I finally got around to looking this over, and it's good stuff. It felt a little awkward at the beginning but I wanted to keep reading at the end, which is about the best compliment I can give you re: narrative.

NSMike wrote:

I'll take whatever you want to give.

Fanfic or gtfo.

Minase wrote:
Here's the first 28 or so pages of my longest running project. If you don't like midieval business with a dash of fantasy, you may not be interested. I have about 110 pages of content written, whether or not all of it is going to be used.

I finally got around to looking this over, and it's good stuff. It felt a little awkward at the beginning but I wanted to keep reading at the end, which is about the best compliment I can give you re: narrative.

Hurray, someone read a little!

What specifically felt akward? I was a bit wary of that: The frame of the narrative in the "present" was written probably a good 6-8 months after most of the backstory. I was concerned it would come off as disjointed because it...was.

"What did you do today?"

The question never lost its sting. What was the right answer? He thought about trying to do some sort of work, but video games and porn seemed to make up the majority of his day. Lies produced expectations, but the truth only served as a reminder of how utterly useless his existence was. At least, this was how it looked to him. Besides, he was still blaming himself for her recent health scare. In all likelihood, he'd never stop blaming himself. It was his fault, he reasoned, that she's been so stressed. He certainly hadn't been contributing much else to the situation, other than a drive to and from her job.

He shrugged, hoping she would move on.

"I had this annoying lady come in today," she said. She had moved on.

He didn't. He couldn't. The guilt, the rage, the bleakness, all the things swirling around in his head came rushing all at once to the fore-front of his consciousness. He tried to hold back the tears, but they would have none of it. It was all frustratingly routine, to the point where he was almost an expert at maneuvering through traffic while tears streamed down his face, all the while making no sounds in an often fruitless attempt to keep her from noticing.

"Baby, what's wrong?" This question. This f*cking question. It was bad enough that she had noticed, as she usually did, but the genuine concern and worry dripping off of every single letter was like taking a wrecking ball to a beaver dam.

As the tears burst forth and loud sobbing filled the vehicle, what needed to be said was never made any clearer to him. Everything had already been said, dozens of times before. No job, no ambition, no direction in life. The fear and the anger he knew were irrational, but that didn't help to lessen their impact on him. He knew that talking about it wasn't helping, but doing something about it seemed like an insurmountable task.

"Talk to me," she pleaded.

Panic began to set in. His mind raced. What if her heart palpitations start up again as a result of worrying about him? Or about the money they don't have because of him? It's only a matter of time before she realizes what a loser she's living with. Perhaps that's a good thing, though. She'll move on, find someone better. He'll end it all. No more pain. His parents would probably understand.

He refused to accept the self-loathing as anything other than wholeheartedly deserved.

"Baby..."

Wait, though. What if she gives up and tries it again? He knows she's capable. The scars on her wrists are a constant reminder of the suffering he has inflicted on her. It's his fault she wears sweaters around her family, even on the hottest summer days. He can't let that happen again, no matter what.

Pushing back the tears and his voice trembling, he said the three words he says second-most, "I'm so sorry."

The car pulled into the lot and stopped in the usual space. He sat quietly, staring down at his hands.

"You have nothing to be sorry about," she said, as she always did. "Come here." She pulled him to her, wrapping her arms around him as his head came to rest on her chest. "You don't ever have to apologize to me. We're in a sh*tty place, now, but we were in a sh*ttier place before this. Things are getting better, and they'll continue to get better, you'll see. I know it's tough to see right now. I know what you're going through. I'm broken, too. Remember what you said to me? You pulled me close and you said, in the cutest, sweetest, and dorkiest way possible, you said, 'I'll hold you together.' And that's what we've been doing. Holding each other together. Don't ever think for a second you have anything to apologize to me for."

This time, the tears were different somehow. Still, they overwhelmed, but these had a hint of comfort, of hope, perhaps even of happiness in them. There was no desire to fight these tears, so with his face thoroughly soaking her shirt and in whatever the hell voice was going to force its way out of his throat, he said the three words he says the most.

"I love you."

Final chapter of the Max Applesauce and the Blowfish EPIC SAGA for all your meaty vision orbs to suck on. As always, I welcome criticism on whatever you want to criticize, wherever you want to criticize it. Also, as always, there's a bit of NSFW language (German is a NSFW language if you work in a retirement home for Holocaust survivors) because I have filthy, filthy finger-mouths.

dhelor wrote:

Update of Remnant. Got a little more done on it. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh noes I broke the thread. :(

Not dead. Will read soon, just had a pretty crazy weekend up north and now a SUPER crazy week at work. Once the G20 madness starts and the city gets locked down on high alert I should have some more time to read the backlog of stuff here.

What specifically felt akward? I was a bit wary of that: The frame of the narrative in the "present" was written probably a good 6-8 months after most of the backstory. I was concerned it would come off as disjointed because it...was.

A little more lead-in to the 'present' time period would have been nice, or even some more background of how the kids are chosen or some anecdotes to establish their characters (also a great time for foreshadowing).

Update of Remnant. Got a little more done on it. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh noes I broke the thread.

It's a little better, but I think that sentences like these:

But no, surely something of such malevolence would not choose one such as me as its harbinger.

sound pretty but are a bit overwrought. You can cut a lot out of this sentence and still retain its meaning.

Minase wrote:
What specifically felt akward? I was a bit wary of that: The frame of the narrative in the "present" was written probably a good 6-8 months after most of the backstory. I was concerned it would come off as disjointed because it...was.

A little more lead-in to the 'present' time period would have been nice, or even some more background of how the kids are chosen or some anecdotes to establish their characters (also a great time for foreshadowing).

Noted. I generally like to jump right into action, but the ratio of introduction to backstory is definitely skewed. It's by design, and *should* make some sense later. The background on how the kids are chosen is explored later on, though the main character's origin is unique. I've gone through four seperate lead-ins, and this is the newest. I'll look over the older ones and see if they maybe fit better, or elements of them.

I'm going to try to make a point tomorrow to read some of dhelor's, skeletonframes', and mechaslinky's stuff. I gave slinky's end bit a read, and it was intense if a bit overdone. I'll have to read the other bits.

One request for future reference: If you're going to post a google doc, maybe post both what is new (for those that have read before) and the entire work for others. Keeps from having to run through the whole thread piecing together a story.

Good idea. Here is the entire Max Applesauce and the Breakfast saga in one convenient easy-to-ignore location!

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3

Blind_Evil wrote:

I gave slinky's end bit a read, and it was intense if a bit overdone.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by overdone. Could that be the problem?

MechaSlinky wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

I gave slinky's end bit a read, and it was intense if a bit overdone.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by overdone. Could that be the problem?

You tricked me good sir. What I read was the "What did you do today" story up the page some. I must've sounded like a crazy, claiming anything Applesauce related to be overdone. Or am I still mistaken and that was the final chapter, and the dude in that was thinking up Max stories all day instead of being productive?

Anyway, the part about the wrist scars didn't sit well with me. It's just my personal taste, because I know this actually happens. Other than that it was all powerful, realistic stuff.

After reading that and the entire Applesauce saga I have to say I'm impressed by your range.

Alright dhelor, I read your update of Remnant. It seems interesting, but two things struck me quite frequently as I read through. You seem to write long sentences with several commas that can and sometimes ought to be separate sentences. You also use "me" in cases where it would be better to use "myself".

Here's a sentence that stood out, but I'm not sure if you had any similar examples. The original form read poorly if you removed "Reim knew" and left it as "It was in such a cache the thing he sought lay dormant." As such I recommend changing it to:

It was in such a cache, Reim knew, that his dormant prize lay.

The very first sentence is another example.

With but a few minutes until the Second Sister was to fall below the horizon, and several hours yet until the First's revival, the city was soon to know a rare moment of pure darkness

Let's remove that middle section and:

With but a few minutes until the Second Sister was to fall below the horizon the city was soon to know a rare moment of pure darkness

It doesn't really mesh well. Typically that comma sort of represents an interruption, a side thought, in the middle of a sentence. Whenever I make such an interjection I read back and make sure, without that middle part, it reads as a full and flowing sentence on its own.

I might change the first sentence to something like:

The city was soon to know a rare moment of pure darkness as mere minutes remained until the Second Sister was to fall below the horizon. Yet hours still remained until the First's revival.

I'd also remove the comma from the second sentence.

He had spent many long nights studying the temple guards' route – they were very rigid in keeping to the same patterns – and the location of all the Fragments and when they were lit.

This was just awkward to me. I had to pause, read back and think about it for a minute since it confused me on first read.

I really wish I had some sort of "red pen" method of making commentary here. It's pretty good despite the fact that I don't exactly know what the Hell is going on, but it's interesting.

A couple more:

But no, surely something of such malevolence would not choose one such as myself as its harbinger

And this:

The last thing he remembered before losing consciousness was a low muttering and a pair of rough hands grasped around his neck.

Starting with "the last thing he remembered" sounds a bit...I dunno, best way to describe it is "J.K.Rowling". I'd switch it to present tense.

As his mind dripped from consciousness he heard a faint and a pair of rough hands grasping around his neck, then he was alone with silence and the dark.
Blind_Evil wrote:
MechaSlinky wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

I gave slinky's end bit a read, and it was intense if a bit overdone.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by overdone. Could that be the problem?

You tricked me good sir. What I read was the "What did you do today" story up the page some. I must've sounded like a crazy, claiming anything Applesauce related to be overdone. Or am I still mistaken and that was the final chapter, and the dude in that was thinking up Max stories all day instead of being productive?

Oh, I see. No, that "What did you do today?" thing is just the link to the final chapter of Max Applesauce. Wasn't intended to have anything to do with Max Applesauce, especially since anything to do with Max Applesauce is the most productive anyone can possibly be at any given time.

I didn't even plan on writing it, although I had been wanting to write something different and at least mildly serious for quite a while, but had zero ideas. As soon as I finished Max Applesauce, this just sort of spilled out of me. It was weird.

Blind_Evil wrote:

Anyway, the part about the wrist scars didn't sit well with me. It's just my personal taste, because I know this actually happens. Other than that it was all powerful, realistic stuff.

After reading that and the entire Applesauce saga I have to say I'm impressed by your range.

Thank you very much. This brightened up my day. I'm especially glad I could make you uncomfortable.

Thought you all might want to check this out:

2010 Blizzard Global Writing Contest

Dhelor, you broke the thread!

MechaSlinky wrote:

Dhelor, you broke the thread!

I guess I'm going to have to work on something shorter to get people to read <,<

I submitted my Wheaton/Scalzi fanfic. Guess I'll see whether they liked it or not in August.

Not sure if I want to write fanfic about Starcraft, although I imagine that the quality of submissions will be -- on the whole -- fairly low. I'm predicting the Blizzard folk will be assailed with a bunch of nasty slash stories about Overlords raping Zealots or Kerrigan or whatever.

Mao's link is an example of something else this thread could be good for, however. If anyone comes across any short story or other contests, preferably open to international writers, please post them here.

I'll have a lot of time to read some of the longer stuff posted in the thread later this week, as I'm out west visiting the family (with no video games!).

After being frustrated with nothing but dumb self-centered blog posts on GameKrib.com (and a few others I know being fed up with them) I went about writing A Guide to Blogging.

I feel a bit proud of its entertainment value in addition to its educational purpose.

Clemenstation wrote:

I'll have a lot of time to read some of the longer stuff posted in the thread later this week, as I'm out west to prospect for gold cuz it's the eighteen-f*cking-hundreds out there!

FTFY

I hope you kept "crazy blowmind" in there, cuz it was like Lebowski's rug. It held the room together, so to speak. I just like playing fast and loose with language. I was a fan of that and "ridiculously overcomplex". Maybe I should have spoke up sooner.

ccesarano wrote:

I'll get to critiquing the work of others soon. Unfortunately I don't feel very qualified to do so, particularly since I'm not much of a grammar hound. I spot the basics, sure, but I still don't know when it is appropriate to use whom over who.

I don't think you (or anyone) necessarily has to do a line-by edit each time; sometimes it's enough just to give a reaction to a piece as an everyday reader.

Overall I suppose I agree with your premise, especially the me-too-ism of Sony / Microsoft at E3. But I'm going to look at one paragraph in particular because it's what I'm most interested in, myself, and the main thrust of your argument is something I've already read maybe four or five times elsewhere.

In order to be successful video games need to be selling as many games as there are film tickets and DVDs. Right now developers are lucky to see even a third of that number, and a lot of it is because they stick to the same complex control schemes that appeal to a limited range of tastes. Even if a new player manages to learn how to navigate dual-analogs sufficiently, the second they hop online they will be introduced to the most prejudiced and foul-mouthed example of immaturity this side of a middle school. We're not talking Sesame Street childish, we're talking Lord of the Flies here (and before you ask, no, that's not some sort of Lord of the Rings spin-off you illiterate buffoon). The online gaming community resembles less of a football locker room and more of a prison shower where dropping the soap could expose you to a world of discomfort (to put it kindly).

Do they need to sell as many games as film tickets and DVDs? Each individual game is more pricey ($60 vs $15 DVD vs $15 movie ticket).

Anyway, the complex controller bit ... you sort of introduce this interesting little tidbit -- and one which I wrote my master's thesis on, in fact -- in mentioning that control schemes can be offputting to new video game players, but you then totally shift into a discussion of the infantile nature of online competitive play. Why is that? How are these things related? You touch on the edges of a kind of gaming elitism, I think, and one which is invariably tied-in to the materialism of input devices and accumulated mastery thereof, but it's just a surface touch.

Further, I found myself wondering: How might competitive play change if the method of input was shifted from thumbsticks and buttons to full motion control? Is there something more 'objective' or 'even-playing-field' about traditional controllers compared to these motion-based alternatives? Could competitive multiplayer thrive in conditions where players' bodies -- of varying sizes and shapes -- suddenly become a factor in the game? Would this make games more like sports somehow?

I realize this is a bit of a silly 'critique' ("Why didn't you write about what I wanted to read about?") but hey. That's what I've got.

I'm just going to pretend this thread is the island on Lost, where CPR has a success rate approaching 100%.

One thing I've been struggling with lately is backstory. I'm writing a novel about a person who is genetically altered to become a bear -- a nine-foot tall bear -- but one which has been made "accessible" (looks sort of like a teddy bear) because his job is to do PR for a company. He's lovable by design. Yep, he's a mascot bear that digs through dumpsters in the city because his contract states that he has to cause "delightful mischief" at least five nights a week.

Okay, so the story is all about this bear and how he eventually manages to emancipate himself from this situation, but I haven't even really got started in on the bear himself because I've been busy trying to hammer out the backstory.

In the near future, so far, I've come to the conclusion that:

-everyone will have super-cheap media devices that can effortlessly record pictures/video and upload it to the internet for public consumption. This, along with manufactured desire for celebrity and global overpopulation, means that fame is the most important thing in the world -- and finding and capturing 'unique' experiences with one's media device is how it happens.

-population dissent is kept low because everyone is obsessed with games... THE game in particular. It works like hidden achievements; people do all kinds of crazy sh*t (recorded, of course, by their media devices) with the hopes that their goal somehow corresponds to a recognized achievement. One guy, for example, does jumping jacks for a week straight -- doubting whether his endeavors will be recognized the whole time -- until he 'unlocks' a prize that turns out to be a Huge Deal. He becomes a celebrity overnight.

-corporations can run for public office. The bear works for the corporation that is currently the Prime Minister of Canada.

-Water and energy scarcity: access to the sun (space-mounted solar collectors) and fresh water (Hudson Bay!). The bear works for the corporation that has near-exclusive rights to Hudson Bay.

But...

Nowhere in here is a story. And out of this setting needs to come a story. But I feel like I can't get into the story until the setting is well-established. See the problem? You guys struggle with this kind of thing too?

I want to read this.

But, I don't tackle hefty writing projects, so I have no valuable input on your problem. I just throw a random thing up on a website when someone starts a thread about little stories.

Clem, that sounds like a ripe setting.

I've only written one piece I'd call long-form (posted about a fifth of it earlier), and it's not finished yet. My setting came first, and was pretty well defined in my mind. As soon as I started penning the actual narrative, however, the backstory and setting began morphing, and continue to every time I write. Once you find the thread of your narrative, cling harder to that than backstory. Allow the backstory to suit the needs of the main narrative. A novel can be a slog, and getting stuck is depressing. If you can flip a few switches behind the scene to make things more interesting or untie a knot, you should generally get flipping. You just need to be careful and reread what you've already placed in history, to make sure you aren't creating any conflicts.

I agree with Blind_Evil, don't get too tied to staying true to the setting you've created--it will most likely start to interfere with the narrative. The analogy I like to use when I write any fiction is that it's like building a skyscraper. While you're building, you have all this scaffolding and other crap to support the final product, but in the end all that extra crap gets taken down. So, parts of the setting you've constructed, which sounds like a very interesting place to have a story, will end up being part of that scaffolding--you needed it to write the story, but in the end, it has to be taken out.

In other words, write the first draft and include as much of the setting as you want without worrying how exposition-y or awkward it sounds. When you start revising you'll see where the setting gets in the way, and remove those bits. Ultimately you will always have a much clearer vision of the world than your readers, but you only need to convey the parts that matter to the story.

The bear is an intriguing character. Why would a man wish to have his genes altered to become a teddy bear? Was it for "The Game"? And what exactly is the situation he's emancipating himself from? It sounds like he entered it voluntarily--but if he didn't, that's an important plot point. Also, if he is emancipating himself, it sounds like he realizes the bizarreness of the society he's in. Are there others like him? Is he trying to escape to find them? It might be better to focus on plotting this story with an outline of chapters/events, than creating a full backstory. As you plot, you'll probably get a better idea of the role the backstory plays in shaping the narrative.

Clemenstation wrote:

Nowhere in here is a story. And out of this setting needs to come a story. But I feel like I can't get into the story until the setting is well-established. See the problem? You guys struggle with this kind of thing too?

I think Blind Evil's advice is good advice. I would go further and say that the amount of back story you have right now is probably good enough to get the ball rolling on your story.

The world itself is interesting, unique, has an odd voice and tenor to it; I think the opportunities it presents are rich with possibility and pathos. I think the main trick, from the outside looking in, is to start to focus on Bear-Guy.

Who is he? What does he want? What has he lost? What will he do to get it? And, perhaps most importantly, as you start to tell the story, what makes this day different?

There are ways to get the rich and interesting world backstory into the narrative in ways that are relatively elegant, but the key to introducing us to this guy and his genetic alteration and the how of his fight against this Prime Minister/Corporation and its world, you know, most of the rest should fall into place.

Thanks everyone, for the helpful and much-needed perspective. You are all, of course, correct: It's time to move on to narrative and story arc and leave the remainder of the setting details to fall into place accordingly. I took some notes last night, scraping together 'necessary' characters and trying to figure out where critical moments might take place.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

It might be better to focus on plotting this story with an outline of chapters/events, than creating a full backstory. As you plot, you'll probably get a better idea of the role the backstory plays in shaping the narrative.

Following this approach. I have a pretty good idea of how the story ends, so I'm going to start there and try to pick my way backwards through the story to find moments that will make for good scenes.

RSPaulette wrote:

Who is he? What does he want? What has he lost? What will he do to get it? And, perhaps most importantly, as you start to tell the story, what makes this day different?

Great questions for consideration, especially the last one. I firmly believe that the first chapter needs to be action-packed or, at the very least, something interesting has to happen. I've put a lot of books down where the first three or four pages seemed intent on explaining themselves to me like a lecture, and the main character spends a lot of time being contemplative while he gets ready to leave the house.

Here are some more details about the setting:

-Bruticus befriends another 'animal' mascot, named Scuttleclaws Lobster. She works for a Japanese company responsible for solar energy collection, and her giant claws are lightweight robotics, not biological. She's a bit of a hybrid. In fact, most of the 'major' corporations in the world have an animal-person mascot, because animals have been super-marginalized in an overpopulated world and people absolutely love/fetishize their memories.

Ontologically, Scuttleclaws Lobster is perceived as halfway between human and animal in Japan -- a 'grey area' in terms of being -- and this has some nasty consequences down the line.

-Likewise, the surveillance, security, and entertainment company that distributes media devices to the population and has a hand in celebrity creation also has their own PR mascot (Antagonist Armadillo).

You might ask why people would tolerate and even respect companies with bizarre practices and rather aggressive names; well, if you're going to align yourself with a political entity, why not one which WINS? With nationalism on the decline, people want protection. The illusion of benevolence and objectivity is less pressing.

-Peoples' media devices are flat panels attached to long, snake-like cables. People wear them like backpacks and customize them like cell phones (particularly popular this year are snakeskin sheaths). They are roboticized and rather intelligent: People go about their everyday lives while their media devices duck through doorframes, avoid entangling other peoples' devices in a crowd, zoom in and out to capture perceived 'special' moments, etc.

-Winners of the Game spend their fifteen minutes of fame living in the Panoptipartments, the greatest housing available in Canada. They only get to live there until the media spotlight has moved on, however. It's a terrible, sad thing for a person when they realize that nobody cares about their world record in jumping jacks anymore, and their return to mundanity is punctuated by an eviction and return to 'normal' housing. Bruticus Bear gets to live in the Panoptipartment as long as he wants; just one of the many perks of being a high profile mascot. He also gets to 'hibernate' here: While most people voluntarily have cameras on them all the time, in the hopes of being discovered or recognized, Bruticus gets to remove himself from overt surveillance for four months a year, which is a real treat for him.

Clem, have you heard the latest episode of A Life Well-Wasted? The second interview (about "big games") reminds me a lot of the world you describe.

Huh. Somehow I've overlooked this thread before.

I'm an on-again, off-again writer, depending on what else is going on at the moment. I "won" NaNoWriMo last year (because I had a very slow month at work) but haven't had any chance or inclination to do much for a couple of months now.

I'll go back through the thread and read y'alls submissions when I have a bit more time. In the meantime, here are the last couple of things I have produced.

Return to the Sea
Patterns
The Ship

And, just to be different, the last game review I wrote

STALKER: Call of Pripyat review

Comments and criticism always welcome.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Clem, have you heard the latest episode of A Life Well-Wasted? The second interview (about "big games") reminds me a lot of the world you describe.

Nope, don't really do the podcast listening thing, but I'm not surprised to find that it's not an entirely novel concept.

I'm moreso inverting the McGonigal talk -- she argues that games can be used to make real world changes to human behaviour, and I sorta wondered what it might be like if this kind of concept was employed to prop up authoritarian power.

I want to read Hyper F*cking Bear Fight Death Killing Super Squad, Clem. I don't care what the story is, the setting alone has hooked me.

MechaSlinky wrote:

I want to read Hyper F*cking Bear Fight Death Killing Super Squad, Clem. I don't care what the story is, the setting alone has hooked me.

I'mma gonna wait for the movie.