Big 12 may be raided by Big 10 and Pac 10 expansion plans

boogle wrote:

If anyone splits Texas and Oklahoma they are idiots. OU-Texas is a huge event here. They shut down the Interstate going away from dallas to let more people in.

OU and Texas were in separate conferences prior to the Big XII, and they still played every year. And they still will regardless of what happens now.

Splitting up Texas and Texas A&M is what's going to cause the most heartburn politically, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens at this point.

MyBrainHz wrote:
boogle wrote:

If anyone splits Texas and Oklahoma they are idiots. OU-Texas is a huge event here. They shut down the Interstate going away from dallas to let more people in.

OU and Texas were in separate conferences prior to the Big XII, and they still played every year. And they still will regardless of what happens now.

Not to mention the fact that if you'd suggested splitting up OU and Nebraska 20 years ago people would have looked at you like you were insane. New rivalries form. It's just that Texas doesn't belong in the Big Ten, which is the "upper Midwest major sports college" conference, more or less. If Texas wants to jump to a conference, why wouldn't they look at the SEC? Texas has a huge fanbase and is a big TV market, and that's attractive to any expanding conference.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Not to mention the fact that if you'd suggested splitting up OU and Nebraska 20 years ago people would have looked at you like you were insane. New rivalries form. It's just that Texas doesn't belong in the Big Ten, which is the "upper Midwest major sports college" conference, more or less. If Texas wants to jump to a conference, why wouldn't they look at the SEC? Texas has a huge fanbase and is a big TV market, and that's attractive to any expanding conference.

Texas wants to go Pac-10, A&M wants to go SEC. That's where the friction is at the moment. I doubt either of them end up in the Big 10.

(I say this as an A&M grad living in Austin who is being continually inundated with this stuff from all sides this week)

I'm seeing some reports that Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St are talking to the Big East about creating a super conference. It would have 12 football teams, and 20 basketball teams. They would add Memphis to the mix, as well. This is the direction I was hoping for.

Of course, this is just another in a long line of rumors and speculation. who the hell knows what is really going on.

Rumor, rumors, get your rumors!

This blog does a good job of collecting a lot of the recent rumors involving Texas and A&M whether they be Pac10, SEC or Big Ten.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
MyBrainHz wrote:
boogle wrote:

If anyone splits Texas and Oklahoma they are idiots. OU-Texas is a huge event here. They shut down the Interstate going away from dallas to let more people in.

OU and Texas were in separate conferences prior to the Big XII, and they still played every year. And they still will regardless of what happens now.

Not to mention the fact that if you'd suggested splitting up OU and Nebraska 20 years ago people would have looked at you like you were insane. New rivalries form. It's just that Texas doesn't belong in the Big Ten, which is the "upper Midwest major sports college" conference, more or less. If Texas wants to jump to a conference, why wouldn't they look at the SEC? Texas has a huge fanbase and is a big TV market, and that's attractive to any expanding conference.

Supposedly Texas is leery of the SEC's academics, despite the fact that if Texas and A&M joined the SEC the conference would have 4 AAU universities, with Georgia rumored to be on the short list for the next round of AAU invites (The imploding Big 12 had 6). And as I pointed out in the NCAAs report on the academic performance of their athletes, Longhorns football players do not even come close to the performance of the top 5 SEC teams, which kind of puts a lie to their commitment to academics.

I think the real reason is that Texas thinks they would dominate the Pac-10, and would just be one of half a dozen strong teams in the SEC.

Back to the USC front. The NCAA didn't give them the death penalty but, ESPN is now reporting that any Trojans junior or senior can transfer without sitting out a year AND that other schools can initiate contact, ie recruit USC juniors and seniors.

The Trojans might not see another BCS game again for quite awhile, especially if the Longhorns join the league.

Badferret wrote:

And as I pointed out in the NCAAs report on the academic performance of their athletes, Longhorns football players do not even come close to the performance of the top 5 SEC teams, which kind of puts a lie to their commitment to academics.

Don't confuse the academic performance of the football players with the academics of the institution. A University is much more than football players. The academic performance of Texas athletes may not be that great but Texas is consistently one of the top 5 public institutions in the country (off the top of my head, only Cal and Michigan are better).

ESPN.com is reporting that Boise State has left the WAC for the Mountain West conference. We should see some great games between them and TCU now.

And so it begins. Fresno, do something! Don't just ride the sinking ship.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Badferret wrote:

And as I pointed out in the NCAAs report on the academic performance of their athletes, Longhorns football players do not even come close to the performance of the top 5 SEC teams, which kind of puts a lie to their commitment to academics.

Don't confuse the academic performance of the football players with the academics of the institution. A University is much more than football players. The academic performance of Texas athletes may not be that great but Texas is consistently one of the top 5 public institutions in the country (off the top of my head, only Cal and Michigan are better).

Oh I don't, but all of these leagues are really just athletic organizations. I just find it humorous that these Universities pay such lip service to the importance of their (admittedly well earned) academic reputations while seemingly ignoring or at least paying scant attention to the academic merit of the student athletes that thy choose to admit.

Badferret wrote:
iaintgotnopants wrote:
Badferret wrote:

And as I pointed out in the NCAAs report on the academic performance of their athletes, Longhorns football players do not even come close to the performance of the top 5 SEC teams, which kind of puts a lie to their commitment to academics.

Don't confuse the academic performance of the football players with the academics of the institution. A University is much more than football players. The academic performance of Texas athletes may not be that great but Texas is consistently one of the top 5 public institutions in the country (off the top of my head, only Cal and Michigan are better).

Oh I don't, but all of these leagues are really just athletic organizations. I just find it humorous that these Universities pay such lip service to the importance of their (admittedly well earned) academic reputations while seemingly ignoring or at least paying scant attention to the academic merit of the student athletes that thy choose to admit.

So Texas earns ridiculous amounts of money from their sports programs, and then uses that to create a fantastic university while admitting some questionable students that can make a positive impact on the universities bottom line. I'm not sure there is a problem.

I've said for a long time, if you want to "clean up" college athletics, take it off TV. If you take the dollars away, you will see the return of the student athlete. But anyone that regularly watches college sports does not want that. So if you watch college sports, you really don't want it completely clean. there is a line, as USC just found out recently. But that line is a long ways from only admitting academically ready athletes.

And it is more humorous that people actually expect these schools to give up millions of dollars because some of their football and basketball players are up to the challenge of college academics.

mindset.threat wrote:

ESPN.com is reporting that Boise State has left the WAC for the Mountain West conference. We should see some great games between them and TCU now.

Would the WAC fold if only Boise State left? Has there been any indication that someone else from that conference might leave?

Stele wrote:

Scrolling across ESPN says Nebraska joining Big 10.

Yep.

Scrolling across ESPN says Nebraska joining Big 10.

As a Big East fan/member (Louisville alum), I'm not sure if these guys realize what they are getting into with the desire for 16-team conferences. It works out OK for basketball, although it seems like 12 would be better sometimes. But for football, well the Big East is lucky all the members don't have football. Scheduling alone would be a nightmare, at best having 3 years between playing opponents. There was an article in the Courier-Journal (Louisville) last week and our AD was in one of the western conferences a few years back when they tried a 16-team league, playing in some kind of quad divisions, and what a mess it was.

I know all these conference and school presidents are thinking about is money. But man, the lack of balanced schedules, rivalries, and a lot of the great stuff about college sports will get left out.

As for Louisville, I think we're in holding pattern to see if any members defect to the big 10 (Pitt has been mentioned I think). Then there's still the various possibilities of the SEC, ACC and whatever.

The only thing keeping Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma State from joining the Pac-10+ is just a formal offer, which may come this weekend.

And away we go!

boogle wrote:

And away we go!

Just think, now you have a chance of getting shot down by ladies from Berkley, Stanford, UCLA, and USC.

Rat Boy wrote:
boogle wrote:

And away we go!

Just think, now you have a chance of getting shot down by ladies from Berkley, Stanford, UCLA, and USC.

They may shoot me down, but in a classy California way.

Speaking as a 'Cuse fan, I have nothing of use to talk about here. Unless we're talking about Lacrosse or Basketball. And we're not.

boogle wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:
boogle wrote:

And away we go!

Just think, now you have a chance of getting shot down by ladies from Berkley, Stanford, UCLA, and USC.

They may shoot me down, but in a classy California way.

Let me break it down thusly:

Berkley: They'll dump you but still drag your ass to the sit-in because they need extra bodies against the cops.

Stanford: Their break-up IMs and text messages are in either Latin, ancient Greek, or Sandskrit.

UCLA: Swift knee to the testicles. At least that's what I taught my sister the UCLA grad to do.

USC: Don't even try. If you ask out a member of one of their athletic teams, you're either in for close scrutiny by the NCAA or just waiting for a hefty paternity suit if you slip one past the goalie.

Berk: How do you get dragged to crap?
Stan: Elitist pricks. I speak Greek and Latin too. f*ckers.
UCLA: Sister huh?
USC: A girl from my highschool goes to USC. Her drunk photos on my facebook feed bring me joy.

I'm a Big Ten guy here. Long time Michigan fan living in the heart of the beast.

I'm ok with Nebraska.

If I could be the one to fill out the remainder of the 16 I'd go Syracuse, West Virginia, Notre dame and Kansas. Some decent/historic football programs there, but it would be THE elite basketball conference.

I'm all for this alleged exapnsion to super conferences if it means the end of the BCS. 4 SC's with 16 teams each where the winners play in the semi's and then the final.

I hear a number of people saying that Notre Dame is 'irrelevant' and their success a thing of the past. I have two points to make about this with regards to joining the Big 10 or another conference for all sports (including football).

First, from a conference's perspective, ND *is* incredibly relevant because they have a huge fan base that stretches coast to coast. If they did not, NBC would not have signed a new contract last year. Our football team recruits very well. While we may not have won a lot of bowl games in the last decade (no big ones), I seem to remember OSU also having a bad record in big bowl games over that time. ND football would be in the top half of Big 10 football schools. I don't think we would be competitive with OSU, but we've beaten PSU, Michigan, MSU, Purdue at least half of the time over the last 5 years.

Second, ND in the last 5 years has been hugely successful when considering all sports together. Our soccer teams are both typically ranked in the top 5-10. Our hockey team has gone to the championship game and generally been very good (although I know hockey isn't probably part of the discussion). Our mens' basketball team has been very competitive in the Big East (even if disappointing in the tournament *every* year), while our womens' team was ranked in the top 10 (#2 or #3 for much of the year) and went to the final four. ND fencing is dominant. Track, tennis, etc. are always up there. Okay, I know most of those after football, basketball, and perhaps (ha!) hockey don't bring in the money, but ND is a great sports school.

The other area in which ND is relevant if not dominant? Graduation rates of our athletes. We had the highest rate in the country averaged over all sports this year. We had the highest in football -- 100%. Our football numbers over the last five years are all above 94%. Total grad rates at ND: 98% for men, 100% for women. In the Big 10, Northwestern is close... But there are some shameful numbers out there. And, I should point out, we have these successes without some of the shenanigans we see at some big sports schools (I'm looking at you Michigan, though you're not alone).

While it was poo-poo'd earlier, at some level, students and even other academics do know schools by their conference affiliation. I've had discussions with chairs of departments in which they argue that their astronomy program is the second or third best in the Big 10. Academics *do* discuss things in the context of the conference. And, although it pains me to say this, we regularly get applicants to our physics graduate program who check the box in answer to the question "What factors affected your decision to apply to ND?" with "Football program" (among other things).

That said, the academic side of things is for me a negative and a positive with regards to joining the Big 10. On the plus side, the Big 10 schools have much better reputations than the Big East schools as research universities. ND's reputation as an undergraduate institution is well cemented, but as a graduate research institution...our reputation could be helped by affiliation with the Big 10. On the other hand, we do not fit in on the whole with the profile of the typical Big 10 school. As a private university with a total enrollment of about 11,000 (including graduate students, law, MBA, architecture, etc.), we are ~1/4 the size of someplace like OSU. Northwestern is the only school that 'looks' like us.

Notre Dame is gay.

Seriously, people are just jealous that ND really doesn't need anyone else to be a successful institution. If ND wants in the Big 10, or any other conference, they are in for all of the reasons you just wrote. People just get irritated because it would be more convenient for everyone else if they just joined a conference. But no other school is expected to act in any other way than their own best interests.

This is what has made following the destruction of the Big 12 so frustrating. People keep expecting schools to act against their best interest in all of their plans.

Notre Dame is gay.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Jayhawker wrote:

Seriously, people are just jealous that ND really doesn't need anyone else to be a successful institution.

The only reason Notre Dame is able to stay an independent is because NBC is incredibly stupid and continues to give them buckets of money despite the low ratings.

iaintgotnopants wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

Seriously, people are just jealous that ND really doesn't need anyone else to be a successful institution.

The only reason Notre Dame is able to stay an independent is because NBC is incredibly stupid and continues to give them buckets of money despite the low ratings.

Maybe. I really don't know what their ratings are. But if Kansas could get NBC to give them buckets of money, I wouldn't be against it. Unless ND is holding a NBC executive's kids hostage or something, I'm not sure why that should be held against ND.

Prederick wrote:

Speaking as a 'Cuse fan, I have nothing of use to talk about here. Unless we're talking about Lacrosse or Basketball. And we're not.

Don't forget that you guys suck at football. Which means you'd be a perfect addition to the ACC!

For future reference when you're talking about academics:

The Carnegie Classifications

The link above is the Research Universities with very high research activity -- essentially your big-time, (inter)nationally known universities. This is your Ivys, your ACC (9 of 12; the other 3 are in the next tier down), your Big 10, your Pac 10, your SEC.

ADs don't care a whole lot about institutional peer groups, but college presidents do. This is why you might see a UConn or a Pitt or a Syracuse or a Rutgers in the Big 10 or the ACC but probably not a West Virginia or an East Carolina.

Enix wrote:

ADs don't care a whole lot about institutional peer groups, but college presidents do. This is why you might see a UConn or a Pitt or a Syracuse or a Rutgers in the Big 10 or the ACC but probably not a West Virginia or an East Carolina.

This is a very good point.

I read recently that the last time the Big 10 tried to get Notre Dame to join, the faculty voted to urge the administration to join the conference for academic reasons. (I think the official text asked the administration to join the academic portion of the conference or some such...not even sure what that means, but I think they were trying to say they wanted to be part of the Big 10 without saying much about athletics).

There are some good schools in the Big East, but the Big 10 schools have a huge reputation as top quality research universities.