UPDATE: Wifely disapproval of video games

mudbunny wrote:

Think of it as similar to if you married/dated a hard-core vegan. It doesn't matter if you eat meat in front of him/her or not, it will bother them and cause fights. It is up to you to determine if the action that causes problems is worth possibly ending a relationship over.

Actually I've known several vegans/vegetarians whose spouse was not and it was no problem. My wife tried the vegan thing for five years and I ate meat/dairy when I wanted, it wasn't an issue. It was about adults respecting other adults and their choices. All I see in this scenario is a wife treating her husband like a child and him going right along with it so as not to rock the boat. Well I think sometimes the boat needs a good rocking for the long-term health of a relationship. Is he going to be happy his whole life with his wife saying what is and isn't appropriate for him to watch/read/play/etc.? Maybe he has a submissive personality and it will work out fine, I don't know. I know every marriage/relationship has an internal dynamic between individual desires and what's best for the couple, but this scenario seems to go way over the line.

MrDeVil909 wrote:

And over time her perspective of video game violence may moderate. There's no need to push things.

Yup. As he has said, she has, except for Tetris IIRC, *no* experience with video games. As she comes to have experience with video games, and confidence in her hubby's choice of video games to play, she will probably change her mind/expand her range of games that she is comfortable with him playing.

The compromise that is made now is not the final compromise. The position will change as time goes by.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Wait, does this mean you can't watch violent movies either?

She specifically pointed out that video games are different because of their interactivity.

Furthermore, given a video game and a movie with similar levels of violence, the video game is more offensive to her because of the agency and interactivity.

Her arguments really sound more like talking points to me. I've heard many of these same arguments from the media.

- Video games are violent!
-- But movies are violent too!
- It's not the same! Interactivity!

Violence is violence. Either violence is okay or it's never okay. I don't see how Saw IV is acceptable but GTA IV is not.

AcidCat wrote:

All I see in this scenario is a wife treating her husband like a child and him going right along with it so as not to rock the boat.

This is how I see it too. Sometimes, the boat needs a good rockin'.

Mystic Violet wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

But that amounts to the same thing.

How so?

You missed my edit where I added "to her".

Horror games make me very uncomfortable. He can play them all he wants as long as I'm not there. I would never ask Byond to stop playing them just because I don't like them. I have no interest in disrespecting him that way.

There's a difference between a vegan not eating meat and a vegan forcing their SO to refrain from eating meat. Don't like it? Don't have to. People eat whatever they want. It isn't their body to control.

It doesn't need to make sense to us why him playing violent video games, whether she sees them playing them or not, bothers her at a profound level. He has to accept that it does.

AcidCat wrote:

It was about adults respecting other adults and their choices. All I see in this scenario is a wife treating her husband like a child and him going right along with it so as not to rock the boat. Well I think sometimes the boat needs a good rocking for the long-term health of a relationship. Is he going to be happy his whole life with his wife saying what is and isn't appropriate for him to watch/read/play/etc.? Maybe he has a submissive personality and it will work out fine, I don't know. I know every marriage/relationship has an internal dynamic between individual desires and what's best for the couple, but this scenario seems to go way over the line.

Her telling him to never play any video game is just as wrong as him telling her to stuff it, he will play what he likes. In this case, they have talked about it, and there is a compromise that they are both happy with. (see the additional info in the OP)

Mystic Violet wrote:
- Video games are violent!
-- But movies are violent too!
- It's not the same! Interactivity!

Violence is violence. Either violence is okay or it's never okay. I don't see how Saw IV is acceptable but GTA IV is not.

That does depend why she assumes interactivity is bad though. Maybe she assumes that it trains you to be a certain way but the evidence firmly points towards psychologically normal children and adults being able to separate fantasy from reality. Games, films and books don't turn people into murderers. If she has a problem with enhanced desensitisation that's a more throny question, from my experience that has surely happened, I rarely bat and eyelid at exploding people in films or games yet I remain pretty horrified by what little real world violence I've seen.

AcidCat wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

Because she is uncomfortable with those games and is uncomfortable with him playing games like that, whether she sees him playing them or not.

Honestly I find that weird and controlling and don't see that kind of relationship ending well.

Yeah, I don't see a positive development. I see someone saying that they will allow video games if they can control the content. Where does that end? Part of being in a healthy relationship is being able to pursue your interests and develop as a person and then to bring that growth back to the relationship. Whether that be hobbies, social activities, athletics, whatever. I don't know how sitting down and listing the things that are and aren't allowed in those areas of growth is healthy. That's not freedom to do as you choose and it will lead to resentment, IMO.

EDIT: Also, here's a way to look at the violence issue, perhaps. I have a good friend who is very anti-violence in media when it comes to his kids. He and I were talking one day and he said he was uncomfortable when his kids watched Disney movies. I thought this sounded odd and then he explained that in Disney movies there is almost always resolution through violence. And his opposition to violence wasn't visceral, but rather that his kids learn that you don't solve problems by asserting your will over another human being without their consent.

I found that point of view really interesting. Now, my friend himself watches regular TV shows and movies with violence. But he's trying to make sure as his kids are young that they understand what they're processing before he introduces to them content like that.

I take two things away from this.

#1 - If your SO doesn't like violence, then you might remind her that violence is in virtually everything. Mario is a homicidal maniac that commits koopa genocide. So it's instructive to realize that her stance on violence covers most literature, film and games.

#2 - My friend understands that he believes this is right for his *children*. He doesn't preach or judge adults, least of all his wife.

mudbunny wrote:

Her telling him to never play any video game is just as wrong as him telling her to stuff it, he will play what he likes.

No, actually these are two totally different things and are not equivalent. Her telling him what he can and can't play/watch/read is trying to restrict his freedom as an adult, whereas him saying he will "play what he likes" would actually be the appropriate response, defending his freedom as an adult with the ability to decide what media he wants to enjoy.

Lots of folks wrote:

Varying degrees of disapproval, after Sarcophagus' update.

The important thing here is that they're communicating, and have come to a solution they're both happy with for now.

The rest is, as the kids say, none of our beeswax.

Dimmerswitch wrote:
Lots of folks wrote:

Varying degrees of disapproval, after Sarcophagus' update.

The important thing here is that they're communicating, and have come to a solution they're both happy with for now.

The rest is, as the kids say, none of our beeswax.

Interesting discussion though.

AcidCat wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

Her telling him to never play any video game is just as wrong as him telling her to stuff it, he will play what he likes.

No, actually these are two totally different things and are not equivalent. Her telling him what he can and can't play/watch/read is trying to restrict his freedom as an adult, whereas him saying he will "play what he likes" would actually be the appropriate response, defending his freedom as an adult with the ability to decide what media he wants to enjoy.

I never said that they were the same, I said that they are both wrong. They are both wrong and telling the other person that you don't give a rat's ass about their feelings or opinions. Neither option is going to result in any sort of useful communication happening.

mudbunny wrote:

It doesn't need to make sense to us why him playing violent video games, whether she sees them playing them or not, bothers her at a profound level. He has to accept that it does.

A great compromise in this situation would be to save M rated games for times when she will not be exposed to what makes her uncomfortable. That is reasonable. Claiming that the mere thought of him playing M rated games makes her uncomfortable and therefore must never happen is pushing it. Really pushing it. Sure, he can accept that this bothers her. And she can accept that he is an adult. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

I had something pretty sarcastic written but rather than be a smuck I will just say I hope you can live with the situation and it makes you happy.

farley3k wrote:

I had something pretty sarcastic written but rather than be a smuck I will just say I hope you can live with the situation and it makes you happy.

You'll always be a smuck to me.

Mystic Violet wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

It doesn't need to make sense to us why him playing violent video games, whether she sees them playing them or not, bothers her at a profound level. He has to accept that it does.

A great compromise in this situation would be to save M rated games for times when she will not be exposed to what makes her uncomfortable. That is reasonable. Claiming that the mere thought of him playing M rated games makes her uncomfortable and therefore must never happen is pushing it. Really pushing it. Sure, he can accept that this bothers her. And she can accept that he is an adult. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

That may work for people with regular experience to videogames or modern culture. But, it appears that a large part of her upbringing/personality is a large aversion to violence of any sort, to the point where it makes her uncomfortable with him playing violent video games. He has to accept that and work within those boundaries, stretching them where he can. Simply saying "I don't care what you think, I am going to do things that you are extremely repulsed by" is *not* a way to a happy relationship.

mudbunny wrote:
AcidCat wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

Her telling him to never play any video game is just as wrong as him telling her to stuff it, he will play what he likes.

No, actually these are two totally different things and are not equivalent. Her telling him what he can and can't play/watch/read is trying to restrict his freedom as an adult, whereas him saying he will "play what he likes" would actually be the appropriate response, defending his freedom as an adult with the ability to decide what media he wants to enjoy.

I never said that they were the same, I said that they are both wrong.

You said "just as wrong", which many of us take exception to. Because I don't believe they are.

mudbunny wrote:

telling the other person that you don't give a rat's ass about their feelings or opinions.

I'm not suggesting he shouldn't care about her feelings, but spouses are allowed to disagree, and should not use their "feelings" to control the other to such an extent. And giving in and letting your spouse control everything about your life just so you don't hurt their feelings is not healthy, it's allowing yourself to be emotionally blackmailed.

My wife has made it painfully clear that none of "that stuff" is welcome in the house.

mudbunny wrote:
Mystic Violet wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

It doesn't need to make sense to us why him playing violent video games, whether she sees them playing them or not, bothers her at a profound level. He has to accept that it does.

A great compromise in this situation would be to save M rated games for times when she will not be exposed to what makes her uncomfortable. That is reasonable. Claiming that the mere thought of him playing M rated games makes her uncomfortable and therefore must never happen is pushing it. Really pushing it. Sure, he can accept that this bothers her. And she can accept that he is an adult. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

That may work for people with regular experience to videogames or modern culture. But, it appears that a large part of her upbringing/personality is a large aversion to violence of any sort, to the point where it makes her uncomfortable with him playing violent video games. He has to accept that and work within those boundaries, stretching them where he can. Simply saying "I don't care what you think, I am going to do things that you are extremely repulsed by" is *not* a way to a happy relationship.

You could just as easily agree to look the other way. What he plays in his own time and on his own could be his business and she need never know exactly what it is he's playing and she could accept that her husband is a responsible adult and choose not to think about nor ask what he's doing.

mudbunny wrote:

That may work for people with regular experience to videogames or modern culture. But, it appears that a large part of her upbringing/personality is a large aversion to violence of any sort, to the point where it makes her uncomfortable with him playing violent video games. He has to accept that and work within those boundaries, stretching them where he can. Simply saying "I don't care what you think, I am going to do things that you are extremely repulsed by" is *not* a way to a happy relationship.

It has nothing to do with my experience. Seriously. I understand her experiences are different but that doesn't change the fact that she is wrong. If the only solution for him is to stop playing violent games, then that's not right. He has a right to play them. What they need to work on is her fear of violence. Telling your SO what to do and performing the guilt-trip maneuver when you don't get your way will not result in a happy relationship. Sometimes, you have to A) admit when you're wrong and B) compromise.

They have to work on her issues with violence, not have her issues control the relationship. There's a difference.

Not meaning to derail the thread, but being 'sensitive' to violence, doesn't sound like, at least in the way you describe it, a good thing.

The world is a messy place. One needn't embrace the darker sides of it, or hunt them out, but some awareness of them is probably useful to maintain a healthy distance from it (or to appraise unpleasant things with critical thinking).

Short story: she probably needs to see some violent films or she'll become a terrified shut-in.

Mystic Violet wrote:

A great compromise in this situation would be to save M rated games for times when she will not be exposed to what makes her uncomfortable. That is reasonable. Claiming that the mere thought of him playing M rated games makes her uncomfortable and therefore must never happen is pushing it. Really pushing it. Sure, he can accept that this bothers her. And she can accept that he is an adult. There has to be some middle ground somewhere.

I think that in this situation, the thought of me playing M rated games without her around doesn't just bother her because she doesn't like the content. We've talked about this, and she thinks that the influence is much intense for children than for adults, but she's of the opinion that wanton violence in a video game influences behavior and attitudes in subtle ways. She believes the exact same thing for television and movies, and never watches TV and rarely watches movies with violence. So far we haven't really had time to watch many movies together, but the ones we have seen with graphic violence she's never enjoyed, with one exception. When we saw Avatar together, she didn't love it, but surprisingly didn't hate it, despite its violence.

This is a forum mostly made up of people that don't share her view on violence, and I don't quite agree with that view either. But I do value her opinion in general and I don't think the most constructive response is to force the issue and then yell, "SEE! I'M NOT MORE VIOLENT!!!" I think this is the discussion that will stretch over years. We plan to have children someday, and it's very unlikely that we'll be able to completely control the content to which they are exposed. I'm of the opinion that, similarly to alcohol, children grow up with a better understanding of these issues if they observe parents that have healthy habits and attitudes towards games and alcohol. Obviously, there's no single definition for "healthy" on these matters. But the more progress we make towards common ground on this issue (and other, more important issues), the more of a consistent front we can present towards our children.

In general, I don't think it's realistic to expect that a single discussion will resolve an issue, even a relatively small issue such as this one, to 100% satisfaction on both sides. But we're at the point where we're both content for now. If dissatisfaction with our current agreement rises to an intolerable level, we'll revisit, perhaps when Civ 5 comes out and she states a dislike for even the non-graphic depiction of armed conflict. But there's positive movement here. There were points at which I didn't feel like she valued what I said, but I certainly don't feel that way after last night's discussion.

But there was a compromise.

The sticking point has gone from "no games in the house" to "no violent games in the house". (And, keep in mind that, according to Sarc, he is not a fan of violent games in the first place.)

mudbunny wrote:

But there was a compromise.

The sticking point has gone from "no games in the house" to "no violent games in the house". (And, keep in mind that, according to Sarc, he is not a fan of violent games in the first place.)

Sure, she "compromised" by downgrading her demands from Outrageously Unreasonable to just Unreasonable.

But enough from me, Sarcophagus must sleep in his own sarcophagus.

The "adult personal freedom" stance is an honorable one, but in this case it's not really the point of the argument. She is objecting to the behavior on moral grounds. She is trying to save him from activity which she believes is wasteful at best or self-destructive at worst. She is doing it to help make his life better, not only hers.

Telling her "I can do what I want" may technically be true - since (I presume) he IS an adult - but it's not going to have any effect on how she feels about it. It's like being in a relationship where one of the partners is an alcoholic and doesn't see it, but the other does and is deeply concerned. I've lived in such a house divided - as a child, not one of the participants - and I've seen plenty of others. It's not fun for anyone. At all.

The difference here is that her stand is against exposure to violence in general and video games specifically, because they generally feature violent actions. Now, to us, being gamers, there's no parallel there to alcoholism, but to her, because of her upbringing, it's just as dangerous and horrific a situation to be in.

I believe the "correct" response here is not to take a hard stand against her, or to immediately cave to her demands, but to do what he is doing right now - trying to show her that his hobby is not (necessarily) one that is inherently self-destructive. Until she comes to grips with the fact that playing video games will not destroy him, nothing is going to stop the way she feels about it, and it will put a strain on the relationship, whether everyone involved realizes it or not.

Good work, Sarc. Keep it up.

Sarcophagus wrote:

I think that in this situation, the thought of me playing M rated games without her around doesn't just bother her because she doesn't like the content. We've talked about this, and she thinks that the influence is much intense for children than for adults, but she's of the opinion that wanton violence in a video game influences behavior and attitudes in subtle ways. She believes the exact same thing for television and movies, and never watches TV and rarely watches movies with violence. So far we haven't really had time to watch many movies together, but the ones we have seen with graphic violence she's never enjoyed, with one exception. When we saw Avatar together, she didn't love it, but surprisingly didn't hate it, despite its violence.

You imply you are both Christians in the OP. The Bible is full of violence. War, sacrifice, torture, murder, rape. Both from those against God and his people and by God and his people. So to take things to extremes (isn't that always a fun thing?), does the bible have a negative influence?

Guess I've never figured out the total pacifism viewpoint. Not saying violence should necessarily be glorified, but her attitude seems a bit naive.

The good thing here is that you are making progress. I think like any relationship, you both have things to work on here. My opinion is you should continue to work with her on root of this issue more than the specifics, and that doesn't mean you caving for convenience and peace at the expense of your self worth and sense of independence and adulthood.

Sarcophagus wrote:

The wife and I had a very productive discussion! Details in the first post.

Thanks all! Your suggestions have been very constructive, and I have a lot of reading to do. I'm going to suggest that we read The Five Love Languages and I'm going to push some nerdier board games. She doesn't really like Settlers, but she doesn't mind it. It helps that there are other girls who like to play it

Know what? I like both you and your wife more now than ever I did before. We totally need to have you guys over for a boardgame night some time.

mudbunny wrote:

You missed my edit where I added "to her".

...

It doesn't need to make sense to us why him playing violent video games, whether she sees them playing them or not, bothers her at a profound level. He has to accept that it does.

...
In this case, they have talked about it, and there is a compromise that they are both happy with. (see the additional info in the OP)

I hope Sarc. sees the humor in this, too, since we go to church together and they've been talking lately about, among other things, choosing love over enforcing our own views of justice.

Sarcophagus wrote:

I think that in this situation, the thought of me playing M rated games without her around doesn't just bother her because she doesn't like the content. We've talked about this, and she thinks that the influence is much intense for children than for adults, but she's of the opinion that wanton violence in a video game influences behavior and attitudes in subtle ways.

And yet for all your exposure to videogames you somehow turned into the kind of guy she'd like to marry?

The tone in this thread has gone from caring advice to something akin to character assassination.

We don't know Sarc or his wife, they have reached a compromise that may be unreasonable to some, but it's their compromise to make.

Is it ideal? No.
Is it logical? No.
Is Sarcophagus in a better situation that he was 24 hours ago? Yes.

And right now that's all that matters.

While some see his giving up his freedom, other seem to think that he's showing a lot of care and respect for the woman he loves. Maybe she doesn't respect him as an adult, as some seem to think, but without knowing both of them no one here has the ability or right to make that judgment.

Game Recommendations (for either of you):

Any sports / simulation game like Skate
Harvest Moon games
Viva Pinata
Any of the Play First games like Diner Dash or Virtual Villagers (not sure if that's PF)
Pikmin (some violence with animals eating each other)
Popcap games
Kingdom for Keflings
Chime
Poyo Pop Fever
Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo HD
Banjo and Kazooey Nuts and Bolts
Pac Man Championship Edition
Phoenix Wright (although there are murders involved)

My girlfriend has played many of those games above and loved them.

Comment on violence,

Some people have touched on this, but I think that many "violent" games like Team Fortress are similar to many sports or play yard games like capture the flag. The violence isn't there as the point and the guns are used as a multitude of ways to interact with the other people playing. To me, it's similar to a board game where you have several different maneuvers and you use them to try and win the game. It's not really any different from picking an offensive play in football and trying to score a touchdown.

mudbunny wrote:

But there was a compromise.

The sticking point has gone from "no games in the house" to "no violent games in the house". (And, keep in mind that, according to Sarc, he is not a fan of violent games in the first place.)

I feel this may cause more conflict down the road when he buys a game that he doesn't consider violent but she may not approve of. His idea of extreme violence greatly differs from hers. Then, it becomes a matter of vetting games through her to figure out what is acceptable and what isn't. Games rated T can go either way. I can see games like Final Fantasy XIII possibly not making the cut. But "what ifs" scenarios don't really help with the present.

This could be temporary and with some work, she may realize that violent media doesn't corrupt people. It depends how far each party is willing to take it.