Public display of guns- What do you think?

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I saw this story over at the NY Times about a movement in gun rights circles to openly display guns in holsters in places like coffee shops, pizza places, and other public areas in what seems to be an effort to mainstream open carry.

I suppose the more people see weapons in holsters, the more people become accustomed to them and the more normal they seem. On the other hand, there's no question guns make a lot of people nervous. What are your thoughts? I'm kind of up in the air on the issue.

On the surface, I think it's a good idea. And by "on the surface," I mean I haven't really thought it through all the way.

I like to think of guns as a deterrent, like capital punishment. They're not doing their job if you keep them hidden away from the public, since the best time to use a gun on a person is "never." I would much rather a mugger pass right by me because the butt of my gun was clearly displayed on my person than risk having to draw it and defend myself because the mugger picked me out of a crowd. (I don't own actually own a firearm, btw).

I mean isn't this why Monarch Butterflies are so brightly colored? So potential predators are warned of the poison in their bodies?

I have a geniuine question that comes from a position of ignorance.

How secure is a holster? What's to stop a supposed mugger/crazy person from walking up behind me, stealing my gun out of the holster and holding me up with my own gun?

Unless you're a police officer or in the military I'm against it. Mind you I grew up in a home filled with guns and I'm all for the right to own them. The problem I run into is that knowing, being around, and being related to many high testosterone, low intelligence individuals, when guns are near at hand they tend to get brandished about a lot more than they should. Get a dozen of these guys together all with .45s strapped to their thighs and suddenly everbody thinks they're in the Old West and you've got guys aching to "pull their piece" on that other idiot.

At least at this point the miner who gets ticked off at the foreman has to walk out to the parking lot to get his gun out of his truck rather than just being able to pull it right there and take a shot at him. Yes, I know lots of people who carry concealed weapons but it just seems that something about them being concealed keeps these guys from pulling them out at every second to wave them around. In cars, where they tend to keep their pistols in their console, under their seat, or in a pouch on their doors I've just noticed they tend to get pulled out a good bit more. I've had a gun pulled on me in traffic because I apparently cut someone off and I've been in cars with others on at least 4 occassions where people have pulled their guns to wave them around at people tailgating them.

As has been said, having people walking around Wal Mart with guns strapped all over them in holsters is going to make some people uncomfortable. If some of those people who are uncomfortable also have weapons strapped all over them then you might get some situations arising. All I can figure is that the people pushing for this either really miss the mythical days of the Wild West or they think the US should be more like some African nations where you can walk around on the street carrying an RPG and AK.

There's very little good to come from "surprising" someone with a gun, whether you are defending yourself or not. I'm sure there are some people out there who say this would lead to unarmed people getting victimized more and/or fewer criminals getting blasted. I do worry about the psychological effect on the gun owner, though. Would they feel like a public display is all the warning they need to give before shooting an aggressor?

What about the would-be thief? If they can lift a wallet, what's to keep them from grabbing a weapon from someone else's holster other than the occasional button snap or bit of velcro?

I'm generally in favor, though. Heinlein wrote that an armed society is a polite society. We could use a little more politeness these days.

I feel for the plight of people whose lifestyle conditions require them to carry firearms around themselves at all times.

It's like I always carried a jack and a tire iron with me at all times. Even I am not driving.

Seth wrote:

On the surface, I think it's a good idea. And by "on the surface," I mean I haven't really thought it through all the way.

I like to think of guns as a deterrent, like capital punishment. They're not doing their job if you keep them hidden away from the public, since the best time to use a gun on a person is "never." I would much rather a mugger pass right by me because the butt of my gun was clearly displayed on my person than risk having to draw it and defend myself because the mugger picked me out of a crowd. (I don't own actually own a firearm, btw).

I mean isn't this why Monarch Butterflies are so brightly colored? So potential predators are warned of the poison in their bodies?

I agree with this, mostly. I'm alright with concealed carry, but if you can (safely) alert everyone to your gun ownership it's much less likely that you'll actually have to use it. The problem with this is that it doesn't necessarily lower crime unless it's an all-in thing. LoJack is great, but doesn't curb car theft overall; just on the cars that have it. Deterrents work best when it's understood that everyone has access to them, like in Kennesaw, Georgia. That city passed an ordinance in 1982 that requires all heads of house to own a gun and ammo (with obvious exceptions — conscientious objection, convicted felon, etc.). Since that was passed the crime rate dropped something like 90% and has stayed down, despite the population almost tripling in that amount of time.

Kehama wrote:

Unless you're a police officer or in the military I'm against it. Mind you I grew up in a home filled with guns and I'm all for the right to own them. The problem I run into is that knowing, being around, and being related to many high testosterone, low intelligence individuals, when guns are near at hand they tend to get brandished about a lot more than they should. Get a dozen of these guys together all with .45s strapped to their thighs and suddenly everbody thinks they're in the Old West and you've got guys aching to "pull their piece" on that other idiot.

So why isn't that constantly happening in states where open carry is legal and an accepted practice?

Kehama wrote:

As has been said, having people walking around Wal Mart with guns strapped all over them in holsters is going to make some people uncomfortable. If some of those people who are uncomfortable also have weapons strapped all over them then you might get some situations arising. All I can figure is that the people pushing for this either really miss the mythical days of the Wild West or they think the US should be more like some African nations where you can walk around on the street carrying an RPG and AK.

The wild west wasn't really that wild. As for people being uncomfortable, it sure doesn't seem like it in places where it occurs on a regular basis.

LobsterMobster wrote:

What about the would-be thief? If they can lift a wallet, what's to keep them from grabbing a weapon from someone else's holster other than the occasional button snap or bit of velcro?

A decent retention holster and the fear of getting shot, same thing that keeps some people from grabbing cops' weapons.

Jonman wrote:

I have a geniuine question that comes from a position of ignorance.

How secure is a holster? What's to stop a supposed mugger/crazy person from walking up behind me, stealing my gun out of the holster and holding me up with my own gun?

Holsters are made "yank-proof" these days. Typically it involves some strap release mechanism (slider or a button) on the body-facing side of the holster that make it difficult (if possible at all) just to grab the pistol out of the owner's holster. I believe all armed law enforcement personnel wears only yank-proof holsters these days.

Still, "how do take a gun from a Tetragrammathon cleric? You ask him for it". Just point your piece at the owner, and ask him to hand his piece over to you, and no funny stuff.

Retention and yank-proof are two different characteristics, I believe (with as little as I know about it). Although the technical different may be nil and the distinction is more of a marketing nature.

I am very pro gun. One of those, the second amendment is there to protect the others.

For me it comes down to a few principles.
1. Trained and armed citizens deter invasion. Fact that the axis forces, in written communications held off on invading US soil because we all had guns.
2. The only person who can and will take care of my safety is myself. Public servants and criminals are the only people guaranteed police protection, under Law. In fact, Even were I actively being stabbed, the police have no duty to respond to my call.
3. Guns prevent certain crimes. I want to emphasize this. Certain crimes are in fact escalated by a hothead with a gun, no question. But gun laws have shown to have a palpable. Burglary, car jacking are the two most widely studied. And criminals, in interviews tell how more open carry and ownership of guns will change their habits-burglars become breakers and enterers, car jackers become car thieves. Criminals have zero fear of arrest, zero fear of prison, and a huge fear of death and pain. You have successfully shifted violent crime to property crime.
4. Most guns used in crimes were procured illegally, and not throufgh theft-either by an unethical salesperson, or a third party buy. Gun ownsership does not significantly effect gun crime. Crime dows. You punish a gun seller they same way you would a bar feeding drinks to a drunk, you give a life sentence to a third party dealer. They are scum.

With respect to public "display.". And to be clear, a holstered gun is not, in effect on display. Being aware of a presence is not a display. You can look at my pants and know I have a penis, not on display.

KingGorilla wrote:

With respect to public "display.". And to be clear, a holstered gun is not, in effect on display. Being aware of a presence is not a display. You can look at my pants and know I have a penis, not on display.

A holstered gun is very much on display.

If I can see the holster, it's on display. You have displayed it for me to see. If you weren't displaying it, I wouldn't be able to see it.

Well, as I've mentioned before, here in South Africa you aren't allowed to carry a gun openly. The reason being, someone will walk up behind you, put a bullet in your skull and take it from you. This is how legal guns become illegal ones.

I understand that America is a kinder, gentler place. So while I don't approve of people carrying guns, if you are going to carry one and there is no danger from doing so openly, I don't see why not.

The challenge is, as always, compromising a good idea with the chunk of the population that shouldn't be trusted with a sharpened spoon or a bicycle. Intellectually, I am in favor of open carry laws for licensed weapons. On the other hand, far too many people have very little regard for consequences, or the self-control to not start waiving weapons around when someone tailgates them.

I'm thinking that a class, along the lines of the conceal carry permit one, that is actually challenging to pass would be a good solution. Follow the same set of regulations, make sure that there is a clear understanding of what behavior is not allowed with a firearm, and what the consequences are for breaking the law. Holster requirements, safety settings, etc. probably wouldn't be a bad idea either, to limit accidents and unintentional discharges.

Like a woman in a tight T-shirt Jonman, quit staring, you make me feel weird.

I meant more legal display, not colloqueal. This thing in gun control states like Wisconsin where businesses allow patrons to strap is an odd duck.

The issue of comfort around guns is one of education and exposure. I react to most people who are scared or skiddish around guns as I would someone anxious around dogs or two men kissing. It won't hurt you, it was made to help you, and once you know the do's and don'ts you can enjoy it.

Kennesaw has seen an increase in crime as it's population has grown from 5,000 in 1980 to about 77,000 last year. While it's still a great place to live, it has about twice the level of property crime it had when it was small, and violent crime has begun to occur as well. It's gone from around 83 out of 100 in overall safety (property/violent crimes) to about the 58th percentile, and most of that decline seems to have occurred since 2005, which matches the precipitate growth.

So why doesn't the head-of-household gun ownership safety benefit scale with population? Again, it's still better off than many places, but even at it's best in the early 80's about one in six communities were safer, and they didn't have that law. There's more going on there than just gun ownership.

Open carry is not a panacea.

I live in a state where open carry of firearms is completely legal. It doesn't really seem to cause any problems that I am aware of, so I don't really see what the big deal is.

I do think in some situations though that it just looks silly. When I worked at a video store, we had a regular who always came in strapped. All I could ever think was "Cover me! I'll be in action-adventure!"

KingGorilla wrote:

Like a woman in a tight T-shirt Jonman, quit staring, you make me feel weird.

"Whoah, check out the guns on her"

I guess the way I feel about this is sort of the same way I feel about ugly folks wearing thongs at the beach. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

CannibalCrowley wrote:
Kehama wrote:

Unless you're a police officer or in the military I'm against it. Mind you I grew up in a home filled with guns and I'm all for the right to own them. The problem I run into is that knowing, being around, and being related to many high testosterone, low intelligence individuals, when guns are near at hand they tend to get brandished about a lot more than they should. Get a dozen of these guys together all with .45s strapped to their thighs and suddenly everbody thinks they're in the Old West and you've got guys aching to "pull their piece" on that other idiot.

So why isn't that constantly happening in states where open carry is legal and an accepted practice?

Kehama's evidence is, "I think this would happen." Your evidence is, "I think it doesn't." Neither of you have anything solid except that Kehama knows some idiots who do like to play with guns and you apparently know some non-idiots who don't.

CannibalCrowley wrote:
Kehama wrote:

As has been said, having people walking around Wal Mart with guns strapped all over them in holsters is going to make some people uncomfortable. If some of those people who are uncomfortable also have weapons strapped all over them then you might get some situations arising. All I can figure is that the people pushing for this either really miss the mythical days of the Wild West or they think the US should be more like some African nations where you can walk around on the street carrying an RPG and AK.

The wild west wasn't really that wild. As for people being uncomfortable, it sure doesn't seem like it in places where it occurs on a regular basis.

"Wild" is a subjective term. If I lived somewhere where I regularly saw civilians openly carrying guns, I might not think the old west was all that wild either.

CannibalCrowley wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

What about the would-be thief? If they can lift a wallet, what's to keep them from grabbing a weapon from someone else's holster other than the occasional button snap or bit of velcro?

A decent retention holster and the fear of getting shot, same thing that keeps some people from grabbing cops' weapons.

Oh.

Minarchist wrote:

Deterrents work best when it's understood that everyone has access to them, like in Kennesaw, Georgia. That city passed an ordinance in 1982 that requires all heads of house to own a gun and ammo (with obvious exceptions — conscientious objection, convicted felon, etc.). Since that was passed the crime rate dropped something like 90% and has stayed down, despite the population almost tripling in that amount of time.

Ah, the old Gun Town, USA myth. I remember when they used to claim that Kennesaw was also murder free because of guns. It was, but only if you overlooked all the murders.

The low crime of the town had nothing to do with the ordinance, which was never, ever enforced. Let me repeat that: it was never enforced nor was every household in the town ever strapped.

The low crime rate had everything to do with demographics. Kennesaw's population tripled because it became a bedroom suburb of Atlanta, growing with the influx of young college-educated professionals looking for affordable housing and a place to start a family.

Any carry law--concealed or public--has no place in a modern society. It's not the freaking Wild Wild West anymore, nor has it been for 125+ years. Crime has been on a multi-decade decline. So I really have to wonder why all these people feel such a deep need to carry a gat everywhere they go.

CannibalCrowley wrote:

A decent retention holster and the fear of getting shot, same thing that keeps some people from grabbing cops' weapons.

Do a Google search of "cop shot with own weapon", reality doesn't support the theory. If someone wants to shoot you, a strap or clip won't be a deterrent.

Bear wrote:

I grew up in a household with dozens of guns of every shape, form and caliber. IMO, the only reason you'd need to "display" your firearms in public is some weak ass attempt to show someone else how cool or badass you are.

Guns are tools, dangerous tools that are designed to kill. There's no "whoopsies" when a firearm discharges. They're not trophies or status symbols. I'm willing to be that that majority of gun owners in this country have never watched an animal die from a bullet wound. It changes your perspective on things. I'm all for gun ownership but this isn't some f*cking epeen contest.

If mass numbers of US citizens start arming themselves and walking around like this some Gunsmoke throwback a LOT of innocent people are going to get killed for stupid reasons. Sure, some crime might get deterred but I'm willing to bet the number of people that die at the hand of their own guns will skyrocket.

Yet another idiotic idea pushed by the NRA.

Bear, I see where you're coming from but is it really the case that someone who can't get approved for concealed carry now could get approved for open carry? I don't really see this increasing the number of guns out there. It just might change how people regard them.

Being from the UK, this whole discussion is rather at odds with the way things work over here. Guns are pretty much impossible for the average citizen to own, let alone carry about with them. Apart from armed response units, the police don't carry them either. Obviously, we still have gun crime, because illegal weapons do exist, but generally guns are not something we ever have to think about.

Which leads me to my thought on this - legalising the open carrying of weapons in the US would definitely make me think twice about coming over on my holidays, and many other people may feel the same. Intellectually, I know that it shouldn't make much difference, but gut feelings can carry quite a lot of weight. It would also, to my mind, seem somewhat at odds with the way that the US is trying to portray itself to the rest of the world following the Bush years.

I grew up in a household with dozens of guns of every shape, form and caliber. IMO, the only reason you'd need to "display" your firearms in public is some weak ass attempt to show someone else how cool or badass you are.

Guns are tools, dangerous tools that are designed to kill. There's no "whoopsies" when a firearm discharges. They're not trophies or status symbols. I'm willing to be that that majority of gun owners in this country have never watched an animal die from a bullet wound. It changes your perspective on things. I'm all for gun ownership but this isn't some f*cking epeen contest.

If mass numbers of US citizens start arming themselves and walking around like this some Gunsmoke throwback a LOT of innocent people are going to get killed for stupid reasons. Sure, some crime might get deterred but I'm willing to bet the number of people that die at the hand of their own guns will skyrocket.

Yet another idiotic idea pushed by the NRA. We live in a country of 300+ million people. This isn't the wild west.

LobsterMobster wrote:

Bear, I see where you're coming from but is it really the case that someone who can't get approved for concealed carry now could get approved for open carry? I don't really see this increasing the number of guns out there. It just might change how people regard them.

Lobster,

My problem with this is that it would increase access to firearms in public places. We all know that the "public" is filled with all sorts of nutballs who might or might not care about you or your loved ones. I just fear that this could lead to all sorts of accidental deaths.

Darktan wrote:

Being from the UK, this whole discussion is rather at odds with the way things work over here. Guns are pretty much impossible for the average citizen to own, let alone carry about with them. Apart from armed response units, the police don't carry them either.

What's odd about the UK is that when I went over there two years ago there was no reports of gun crime, but the papers were filled with stories about the horrors of knives. "Another teen dead in knife attack" was the kind of headline I saw. A big change from what I see daily over here. I imagine a future Britain where knives are outlawed, and the newspaper headlines are agog over the rising wave of teens being killed by clubs.

Perhaps a land filled with double amputees?

Which leads me to my thought on this - legalising the open carrying of weapons in the US would definitely make me think twice about coming over on my holidays,

A ton of states already allow it.
http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html

Funkenpants wrote:
Darktan wrote:

Being from the UK, this whole discussion is rather at odds with the way things work over here. Guns are pretty much impossible for the average citizen to own, let alone carry about with them. Apart from armed response units, the police don't carry them either.

What's odd about the UK is that when I went over there two years ago there was no reports of gun crime, but the papers were filled with stories about the horrors of knives. "Another teen dead in knife attack" was the kind of headline I saw. A big change from what I see daily over here. I imagine a future Britain where knives are outlawed, and the newspaper headlines are agog over the rising wave of teens being killed by clubs.

I think they WERE outlawed, at some point. London mayor tried to put an ordnance in place that would make "unnecessary dangerous" kitchen knives illegal.

Although I heard that London muggers are really good with reverse-bladed linoleum knives as well.

I guess I just don't care. Someone carrying a weapon is not a problem. It's only USING it that's the problem, and maybe not even then. If they carry openly or concealed makes no difference to me.

Of most of the dedicated gun owners I've known (I don't own any myself), I'd be happier around them knowing they were armed than unarmed.

We all know that the "public" is filled with all sorts of nutballs who might or might not care about you or your loved ones.

That's America-as-seen-on-TV. Don't confuse that with real life.

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