Watching Venezuela Implode

Malor wrote:

It takes a long time to kill an economy and a country. Even little ones are still fairly resilient. People and companies try to survive, and gradually give up things they think are least important as they can't afford them anymore. The bigger the body, the more blood it can lose before failure.... but when failure sets in, it can be sudden and very dire.

Zimbabwe did pretty much exactly what you think Chavez should be doing.

That is not true. Although Chavez sometimes sucks at economics, I think he has learned from Zimbabwean mistakes.

Chavez equates Twitter to terrorism.

Maybe I should join now.

Aetius wrote:

Chavez equates Twitter to terrorism.

Maybe I should join now. :)

Twitter is run by an evil corporation that allows people to speak out against the people! Man, you don't know! You're falling for the evil capitalist propaganda!

It seems the only media that he can stomach is state telly, providing one-way information flow. "Wake up, citizen. Get dressed, citizen. Vote for me, citizen. Thank you for cooperation, citizen."

Only in Venezuela can the corporations be the champions of free speech and freedom of the press.

MaverickDago wrote:

Only in Venezuela can the corporations be the champions of free speech and freedom of the press.

There is another thread right now that begs to differ about Venezuela being the only country where that's the case.

MaverickDago wrote:

Only in Venezuela can the corporations be the champions of free speech and freedom of the press.

Corporations thrive in a free press/speech environment, if they later abuse the system that doesn't mean that the system is wrong, it means it isn't abuse-proof. Now, against the one-voiceism of Chavez-controlled media, what are the still barely alive corporations/enterprises supposed to do? bow down? surrender their hard earned tv channel/newspaper/factory and accept the crumbs from Chavez' table? Hugo can't accept disent of any form, being a military person, the disenter is someone who threatens the orderer's authority and should be banished/punished so he doesn't set a negative example amid the ranks. He'll harass every big media out there until they arch their backs and give in to the pressure, some will last longer, some will comply and change their editorial line, but in the end they'll all be assimilated or banished by made-up laws designed to do just that.

Chavez now calling for internet regulation.

"The Internet cannot be something open where anything is said and done. No, every country has to apply its own rules and norms," Chavez said during a televised speech, according to reports by Reuters and the Associated Press.
"We have to act. We are going to ask the attorney general for help, because this is a crime. I have information that this page periodically publishes stories calling for a coup d'etat. That cannot be permitted," Chavez reportedly said.
Chavez, who frequently clashes with the media over critical reports and broadcasts, said: "It can't be that they transmit whatever they want poisoning the minds of many people--regulation, regulation, the laws!"

Chavez imprisons the head of the last major opposition TV station.

Ortega Diaz said Zuloaga was jailed on charges of contempt and for offending the chief executive of the republic, as well as for statements made during the Inter American Press Assn. meeting in Aruba this month. At that meeting, Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

In my heart of hearts, I always secretly hoped that Chavez would be one of those "good" dictators. You know -- the ones that exist on paper but never in real life.

You disappoint me, Hugo. You disappoint me real bad.

Aetius wrote:

Chavez imprisons the head of the last major opposition TV station.

Ortega Diaz said Zuloaga was jailed on charges of contempt and for offending the chief executive of the republic, as well as for statements made during the Inter American Press Assn. meeting in Aruba this month. At that meeting, Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

Sean Penn must be devastated.

Seth wrote:

In my heart of hearts, I always secretly hoped that Chavez would be one of those "good" dictators. You know -- the ones that exist on paper but never in real life.

You disappoint me, Hugo. You disappoint me real bad.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." — Baron Acton

Seth wrote:

In my heart of hearts, I always secretly hoped that Chavez would be one of those "good" dictators. You know -- the ones that exist on paper but never in real life.

You disappoint me, Hugo. You disappoint me real bad.

Same here. It's been a long time since I've had even a glimmer of any such hope. He is not a nice man.

It's sad that you need that kind of extremism to be able to have meaningful policy differences with Washington.

SallyNasty wrote:
Aetius wrote:

Chavez imprisons the head of the last major opposition TV station.

Ortega Diaz said Zuloaga was jailed on charges of contempt and for offending the chief executive of the republic, as well as for statements made during the Inter American Press Assn. meeting in Aruba this month. At that meeting, Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

Sean Penn must be devastated.

Sean Penn would still be an apologist for Chavez, because to him it's about the political philosophy more than the man. Even people on this forum were hoping that Chavez would turn out well because they support the political philosophy that Chavez presented.

Ulairi wrote:

Sean Penn would still be an apologist for Chavez, because to him it's about the political philosophy more than the man. Even people on this forum were hoping that Chavez would turn out well because they support the political philosophy that Chavez presented.

I used to call out people who called him a dictator since at the time it seemed they were only doing it because the US doesn't like Venezuela.

Then he went and did all that dictatory stuff. Thanks for making me look stupid, Chavez.

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

goman wrote:

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Details? Because I'm not seeing "offending the chief executive" as a kind of charge that correlates to what you're saying.

Aetius wrote:
goman wrote:

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Details? Because I'm not seeing "offending the chief executive" as a kind of charge that correlates to what you're saying.

Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

Inflammatory remarks like this by a head a major media owner is not needed.

Just the other day another member of Chavez's party was assassinated.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5198

How come we did not hear about that in our major media?

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

And only in a dictatorship is accusing the leader of a crime, a crime itself.

goman i traditionally give Chavez a LOT of leeway (much more than many posters here) but this seems like some pretty bad actions on his part.

goman wrote:
Aetius wrote:
goman wrote:

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Details? Because I'm not seeing "offending the chief executive" as a kind of charge that correlates to what you're saying.

Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

Inflammatory remarks like this by a head a major media owner is not needed.

Well, they are certainly necessary if they are true. Does anyone know what he was referring to? The repression of the protests in February?

Just the other day another member of Chavez's party was assassinated.

Yes, we understand that there are many bad people in Venezuela. But one "side" being wrong does not make the other side right.

MaverickDago wrote:

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

And only in a dictatorship is accusing the leader of a crime, a crime itself.

Dammit even I cannot try any longer. This does suck. Chavez needs to go and the people deserve better.

Ulairi wrote:

Sean Penn would still be an apologist for Chavez, because to him it's about the political philosophy more than the man.

There are definitely some people who will defend the man no matter what he does.

Aetius wrote:
goman wrote:
Aetius wrote:
goman wrote:

This is about arresting people for lying and yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Details? Because I'm not seeing "offending the chief executive" as a kind of charge that correlates to what you're saying.

Ortega Diaz said, Zuloaga had accused Chavez of "being responsible for shooting Venezuelans."

Inflammatory remarks like this by a head a major media owner is not needed.

Well, they are certainly necessary if they are true. Does anyone know what he was referring to? The repression of the protests in February?

Just the other day another member of Chavez's party was assassinated.

Yes, we understand that there are many bad people in Venezuela. But one "side" being wrong does not make the other side right.

You are right. Nevermind about what I said before. Chavez has done some good things for Venezuela but his time has ran out.

When it comes to the term "dictator", I tend to give a lot of slack to folks who managed to win multiple fair elections (and make no mistake, Chavez did), but he's acting like an asshat and needs to be reminded that his power comes from the people.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
Ulairi wrote:

Sean Penn would still be an apologist for Chavez, because to him it's about the political philosophy more than the man.

There are definitely some people who will defend the man no matter what he does.

If what Chavez has done is good for Venezuela (I do think a lot of it is) then it should be more than about him and should be about the people. Antics like this just puts him down to the level of his opposition.

economically speaking, has there been any solid data showing whether or not Chavez's nationalization routine has been helpful to the Venezuelan people in general?

And I don't mean just making the rich richer, because clearly that's not what Chavez is about. Are the poor better off now than when he first came to power? I'm willing to forgive a lot of he's actually improved the living standard of his constituency.

Seth wrote:

economically speaking, has there been any solid data showing whether or not Chavez's nationalization routine has been helpful to the Venezuelan people in general?

And I don't mean just making the rich richer, because clearly that's not what Chavez is about. Are the poor better off now than when he first came to power? I'm willing to forgive a lot of he's actually improved the living standard of his constituency.

The answer is yes.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8172174/Po...

That is why I have forgiven him for so long. Until now. I tried to mentally justify his response to Globalvision but cannot.

edit: nevermind, the thread went in a different direction than I expected.