WoW: The Meatshield Inn

cube wrote:
Originally they would be able to make up that 20% deficit, and have increased armor, health and threat. Instead now, they will have a highly inflated armor amount, and very likely not be able to make up the IceCrown Radiance debuff (except for pallies, but don't get me started on how stupid that is).

They're not supposed to "make up" the debuff. The entire point of the 20% dodge debuff is to make tanks take more consistent damage by reducing the number of hits that they completely mitigate. Removing Defense and adding armor makes sense, considering that armor is the only stat that reduces every incoming hit, while defense removes damage spikes.

Except the inflated stats for ilvl 264 gear did just that. I've only done the math for pallies, but sadly, they are able to get all that 20% back with room to spare, after DR. I would have assumed the same for the other tanks.

I agree that the increased armor has merit and is nice to see, but why would they remove defense from both pieces for all three classes? I'm sure DKs are ecstatic with the change, but warriors and pallies who know their math understand that the defense removal isn't nearly as nice as dodge or parry would have been.

Whatever, I'm sure it's "working as intended"

I would have imagined if they removed stats that led to less of an overall hit to avoidance, they would have tacked on less armor.

Losing more avoidance to get more mitigation was the point, I believe.

Zablocki19 wrote:

I agree that the increased armor has merit and is nice to see, but why would they remove defense from both pieces for all three classes?

Well -- there is an item budget the developers need to stay within. And while, granted, I don't have access to the official forums, I only seea couple pieces of paladin tank gear that's been affected. As I said before, I'm assuming that the stat allocation will be fairly balanced over the set, and they happened to showcase one of the pieces in which they nixed defense.

I mean, one can't honestly expect the to remove defense of all of the tier gear. That would make it one hell of an inconvenience to get crit immune.

Actually, here's an example:

OLD:
Lightsworn Handguards

1579 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 63.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.

NEW:
Lightsworn Handguards

2461 Armor
+81 Strength
+148 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 71.
Equip: Improves hit rating by 54.

Zablocki19 wrote:
cube wrote:
Originally they would be able to make up that 20% deficit, and have increased armor, health and threat. Instead now, they will have a highly inflated armor amount, and very likely not be able to make up the IceCrown Radiance debuff (except for pallies, but don't get me started on how stupid that is).

They're not supposed to "make up" the debuff. The entire point of the 20% dodge debuff is to make tanks take more consistent damage by reducing the number of hits that they completely mitigate. Removing Defense and adding armor makes sense, considering that armor is the only stat that reduces every incoming hit, while defense removes damage spikes.

Except the inflated stats for ilvl 264 gear did just that. I've only done the math for pallies, but sadly, they are able to get all that 20% back with room to spare, after DR. I would have assumed the same for the other tanks.

Whatever, I'm sure it's "working as intended"

Going from 30 to 10 to 30 isn't anything. If it was 30 to 10 to 50 THEN it would mean something.

As it stands now, the idea of "making it up" through dodge rating while losing dodge hit parry from defense but addign to armor for true mitigation sounds like a continuation of what they did with CotT.

edit: Had I looked closer a few days ago i would have noticed the arms lose dodge, the chest loses defense. Even more of a non-issue now.

Well -- there is an item budget the developers need to stay within. And while, granted, I don't have access to the official forums, I only seea couple pieces of paladin tank gear that's been affected. As I said before, I'm assuming that the stat allocation will be fairly balanced over the set, and they happened to showcase one of the pieces in which they nixed defense.

The blue post stated that it's gloves and chest only.

And I think the main point was to make the tier pieces more attractive by giving them a different option.

Here's the current chest:
Lightsworn Chestguard
2526 Armor
+144 Strength
+191 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +9 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 76.
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 60.
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76.

This chest drops from 10-man Lady Deathwhisper:
Ghoul Commander's Cuirass
Binds when picked up
Chest Plate
2526 Armor
+144 Strength
+179 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +8 Dodge Rating
Durability 165 / 165
Requires Level 80
Item Level 251
Equip: Increases defense rating by 81 (16.47 @ L80).
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 42 (1.07% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 76 (1.55% @ L80).

It's pretty obvious that the 95 frost bade T10 isn't absolutely superior to the drop chest(especially after gemmed).

Yeah this may be unrelated but Blizzard did a pretty horrible job this time around when it came to itemizing the badge gear and the equivalent boss drops. In many, many cases, they're almost exactly the same, which made me hesitate to spend any badges, since I mean... something nearly identical coooouuld just drop next week.

Seth wrote:
Zablocki19 wrote:

I agree that the increased armor has merit and is nice to see, but why would they remove defense from both pieces for all three classes?

Well -- there is an item budget the developers need to stay within. And while, granted, I don't have access to the official forums, I only seea couple pieces of paladin tank gear that's been affected. As I said before, I'm assuming that the stat allocation will be fairly balanced over the set, and they happened to showcase one of the pieces in which they nixed defense.

I mean, one can't honestly expect the to remove defense of all of the tier gear. That would make it one hell of an inconvenience to get crit immune.

I really don't know why I'm paying attention to the tier pieces anyways. The bonuses are horrible and give no real benefit over going 0/5 for the tier. That said, my plan really isn't affected at all.

For some reason I had thought they nixed the defense on the gloves like the chest as well instead of dodge, which as you've mentioned is not the case. Currently the non-defense pieces most will want are the crafted leggings and boot, and having two pieces already with no defense will bring alot of tanks back down to a score of ~550 or less. To remove another piece (in the tier chest) could bring that inconvenience to reality.

So how big of a difference is that armor change making? Currently I'm looking at tanks being able to get back up to 70% pure avoidance, with warriors and pallies basically blocking everything else. Judging from the showcased pieces, I figure a tank can get about an extra 8,000 armor, up to around 38k - 40k armor total. Currently at around 30k armor, I'm showing about 66% mitigation. Something tells me that the extra boost causes a 4% increase to 70% absorption, or about 1,000 less damage per shot taken (figure around 30,000 base damage hits).

Overall, it looks like this change reduces about 5% avoidance for 4% mitigation. Worthy trade off?

Zablocki19 wrote:

Overall, it looks like this change reduces about 5% avoidance for 4% mitigation. Worthy trade off?

A thousand times yes.

Overall, it looks like this change reduces about 5% avoidance for 4% mitigation. Worthy trade off?

YES.

Zablocki19 wrote:

Overall, it looks like this change reduces about 5% avoidance for 4% mitigation. Worthy trade off?

Absolutely -- for the majority of fights. 30k armor is 64.3% DR, and 38k is 69.5%. That's enormous, especially since we all are aware that every point of armor gives a linear benefit and is just as important as the point before it -- making it scale better than any of the avoidance stats.

It also, interestingly, puts plate wearers more in line with bears; I'm right around 45% avoidance and 37k armor, fully buffed. 39k when I take that armor potion.

[edit] I overestimated my avoidance a bit. old value was 47, correct value is 45 before any procs.

Bloo Driver wrote:
Zablocki19 wrote:

Overall, it looks like this change reduces about 5% avoidance for 4% mitigation. Worthy trade off?

A thousand times yes.

cube wrote:

YES.

Seth wrote:

Absolutely -- for the majority of fights.

Bloody Hell, that's what I thought too. Unfortunately that means I have to compare my T9 losses to T10 gains...which are very unfavorable:

T9:
2pce: Decreases the cooldown on your Hand of Reckoning ability by 2 sec and increases the damage done by your Hammer of the Righteous ability by 5%.
4pce: Decreases the cooldown on your Divine Protection ability and reduces the duration of Forbearance by 30 sec.

T10:
2pce: Your Hammer of the Righteous ability deals 20% increased damage.
4pce: When you activate Divine Plea, you gain 12% dodge for 10 sec.

T9 - 2 taunts on 6 second CD is pretty excessive, not much loss here because if you have to taunt more often than every 4 seconds, there's a bigger problem. Meanwhile, taking Divine Protection (50% damage reduction for 12 seconds) from a 2 minute CD down to 1.5 minutes is goddamn amazing.

T10 - 20% more damage on a 6sec CD ability. HoR tends to make up maybe 15% of your threat, so looking at a 3% tps increase, or in T9 gear around ~200 tps. 12% dodge boost on a 1 minute CD. Typically will take you from 45% avoidance to 57% with 17% upkeep. Unreliable at best, and very small margin of benefit between still allowing regular hits to go through, and solidifying auto-blocks.

Appears that my best bet is to save up 270 - 300 Emblems of Frost and buy all 4 pieces in one go. Otherwise I'll lose the godly 4pce bonus from T9 before gaining the lackluster 4pce bonus from T10, putting me in that margin of 0 gain. Only way to keep the T10 bonus as a benefit is to skip that margin completely by hitting 60.4% avoidance after IceCrown Radiance.

I'm not going to argue that the 4pT9 isn't amazing, especially next to the completely underwhelming t10 bonuses. However, I would point out that even in 25s right now there likely isn't much call to Divine Protection yourself that often, and the stat increases will likely help you clear some of the tougher fights more than being able to half-bubble 30 seconds faster.

Bloo's got a point. The feral T9 4 peice was similar (20% reduction on barkskin cooldown) and it was pretty annoying when I lost it -- but I 1) didn't have the luxury of triumph gear, so the offset EoT items were more attractive, and 2) noticed that the reduction in cooldown was most useful for running heroics with 4 dps and no healer -- i.e., no real, tangible benefit in a raid environment.

Now, your T10 4 piece is not very lustrous at all -- but with T10 chest and gloves being attractive, you've got more choices vs offset pieces that drop or offset pieces that are of a higher ilvl (but can't be upgraded).

Bloo Driver wrote:

I'm not going to argue that the 4pT9 isn't amazing, especially next to the completely underwhelming t10 bonuses. However, I would point out that even in 25s right now there likely isn't much call to Divine Protection yourself that often, and the stat increases will likely help you clear some of the tougher fights more than being able to half-bubble 30 seconds faster.

The half bubble every 1.5 minutes is pretty huge actually, especially for chaining CDs with other trinkets for a consistent damage reduction effect (glyphed Hand of Salv, double oh crap trinkets). Kiting Rotface big ooze, it is particularly handy at being available in time for 3 - 4 stacks of oozes when the damage is the highest. Again with Festergut aswell for the tank switch, and the hard hitting intervals. In both cases, a 2 minute CD comes up short. Similar with after the bonestorms on Marrowgar if the other tank has trouble getting back into position in time. That's just in the first two wings, and in all cases, that 12% dodge wouldn't do jack.

Comparatively speaking, I'm not holding out all that long on the other pieces either. I could probably get one fairly quickly (my current offset piece being an ilvl 245 helmet), which I'll have next week. Meaning that I'd need to then save 210 EoFs, but am also in an average of ilvl 253 gear (stupid ilvl 232 weapon preventing me from getting higher right now).

Based on our current progression, I should be able to get that in under 6 weeks, meanwhile focusing on upgrading all the other pieces along the way.

Krindle wrote:

The half bubble every 1.5 minutes is pretty huge actually, especially for chaining CDs with other trinkets for a consistent damage reduction effect (glyphed Hand of Salv, double oh crap trinkets). Kiting Rotface big ooze, it is particularly handy at being available in time for 3 - 4 stacks of oozes when the damage is the highest. Again with Festergut aswell for the tank switch, and the hard hitting intervals. In both cases, a 2 minute CD comes up short. Similar with after the bonestorms on Marrowgar if the other tank has trouble getting back into position in time. That's just in the first two wings, and in all cases, that 12% dodge wouldn't do jack.

While I wouldn't say the bonus is bad, I don't see how it's that great either. 30 seconds off the bubble is nice and all, but if you *need* it more than every 2 minutes then something isn't being done right, where the mitigation from the armor increase (and stats for EH) are always on.

Zablocki19 wrote:

That's just in the first two wings, and in all cases, that 12% dodge wouldn't do jack. :(

Yes, that would be why I specifically said it's very certainly a better bonus. However, I still think that if you have a 1.5m Divine Protection and it's constantly on cooldown, then there are other issues at play. Additionally, the upgraded stats vs that set bonus is what I was actually saying was your favorable tradeoff.

Dr.Ghastly wrote:

While I wouldn't say the bonus is bad, I don't see how it's that great either. 30 seconds off the bubble is nice and all, but if you *need* it more than every 2 minutes then something isn't being done right, where the mitigation from the armor increase (and stats for EH) are always on.

Well, that really depends on how you use it. Of course first and foremost, it's a button to keep yourself alive. However, there are several other times you can use it to help out the healers if for instance a battle-rez is needed on a dps that got too close to the big ooze, or to Hand of Sac the other tank when he switches to take Festergut. Oh crap buttons can be used just as pro-actively as reactively. You'll always want one set aside for the ready when you end up taking a big spike, or movement pushes you further away from the healers, but you can easily have a glyphed Hand of Salv positioned for that along with Ardent Defender. I guess one of the biggest benefits for pallies is having that Ardent Defender proc at the ready at all times. So long as that hasn't procced, they have the ability to use their other buttons more freely. It's also a great way to find out when you probably should be expecting to use an 'oh crap' in the future if you ever see that proc.

Bloo Driver wrote:
Zablocki19 wrote:

That's just in the first two wings, and in all cases, that 12% dodge wouldn't do jack. :(

Yes, that would be why I specifically said it's very certainly a better bonus. However, I still think that if you have a 1.5m Divine Protection and it's constantly on cooldown, then there are other issues at play. Additionally, the upgraded stats vs that set bonus is what I was actually saying was your favorable tradeoff.

Hopefully my comment above clarified that a bit more. It's not that I always have it on CD, but there have been times where I've had to use it early, and a minute later been stringing oh craps until it is active again. Usually that's when we're getting our feet wet on a fight for the first time, but some nights it's just one of those nights. With it having a shorter CD, I use it as my first oh crap, which is nice since it's my most powerful. If I need it again, it'll be up before any of the other ones. I remember how handy something like that would have been when learning XT-hardmode.

Perhaps yes I'm putting too much emphasis on why I'd much rather have that than an extra little bit of armor or stam, but I'm fairly certain I won't need that extra boost until we're either closing in on Arthas, or starting heroic modes. I'm hoping I'm not coming off as cocky in this case, but when gearscore and wow-heroes are putting me far above the generally accepted numbers already (ICC-25 is already in the green as a rating), it does give me a sense of confidence that I could save up emblems for a few weeks and make the transition much smoother.

Zablocki19 wrote:

I guess one of the biggest benefits for pallies is having that Ardent Defender proc at the ready at all times. So long as that hasn't procced, they have the ability to use their other buttons more freely. It's also a great way to find out when you probably should be expecting to use an 'oh crap' in the future if you ever see that proc.

What I've seen is that when Ardent Defender goes off, healer lose their minds blowing cooldowns and spamming if they weren't before. That burst tower of light is like a neon sign that reads "Hey, friends, you pretty much just let me die." It's a weird, almost Pavlovian, reaction.

Perhaps yes I'm putting too much emphasis on why I'd much rather have that than an extra little bit of armor or stam, but I'm fairly certain I won't need that extra boost until we're either closing in on Arthas, or starting heroic modes. I'm hoping I'm not coming off as cocky in this case, but when gearscore and wow-heroes are putting me far above the generally accepted numbers already (ICC-25 is already in the green as a rating), it does give me a sense of confidence that I could save up emblems for a few weeks and make the transition much smoother.

I don't believe it's cocky. As you uh... might recall, I believe we had a "discussion" earlier about how underwhelming easy modes are anymore in my opinion. Also, given Blizzard's apparent design strategy to make the ultimate boss of each dungeon a complex dance and not a test of how hard a fist can hit a face*, I doubt Arthas won't be unusually difficult to tank in the previous tier's full gear.

*edit: First one to say Algalon loses.

Bloo Driver wrote:

*edit: First one to say Algalon loses.

2.0 Gruul came first. Then there was Brutallus.

Come to think of it, vanilla Patchwerk, too.

cube wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

*edit: First one to say Algalon loses.

2.0 Gruul came first. Then there was Brutallus.

Come to think of it, vanilla Patchwerk, too.

And all of those predate the existence of easy or hard modes. Most every single fight in MC fit this description as well.

cube wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

*edit: First one to say Algalon loses.

2.0 Gruul came first. Then there was Brutallus.

Come to think of it, vanilla Patchwerk, too.

Of those, only Gruul was really the guy "at the end of the dungeon" you filthy skimmer.

Bloo Driver wrote:
cube wrote:
Bloo Driver wrote:

*edit: First one to say Algalon loses.

2.0 Gruul came first. Then there was Brutallus.

Come to think of it, vanilla Patchwerk, too.

Of those, only Gruul was really the guy "at the end of the dungeon" you filthy skimmer.

Wasn't Magtheridon also a pretty hefty hitter?

This is sure a lovely bunch of trees, but I wonder where the forest is?

Bloo Driver wrote:

This is sure a lovely bunch of trees, but I wonder where the forest is?

The fact that we're all filthy skimmers and nit-picking bastards?

I am a sour bastard not necessarily because of things like this, but it doesn't help.

i go home kick dog

Bloo Driver wrote:

I am a sour bastard not necessarily because of things like this, but it doesn't help.

i go home kick dog

Bloo what about Princess Theredras?

Mr. Smite was some epic sh*t.

Bloo Driver wrote:

This is sure a lovely bunch of trees, but I wonder where the forest is?

HOGGER! The first Epic hard hitter.

GAME
SET
MATCH

So, is this where we go back on topic?

We did a pretty good job covering the changes to T10 plate. I'll think of a new tank related discussion tomorrow, unless someone else wants to propose one.

There's a whole thread a page or two back discussing the strengths and weaknesses behind the theory that tanks (and, to a lesser extent, healers) should be given more in game rewards than DPS. The reasoning was multi faceted, ranging from the very subjective "tanking is tougher" to the much more easily proven "tanks are more rare."

I don't think we need to rehash that subject. But It got me thinking.

I don't think tanks are the hardest job in WoW.

In fact, I think tanking is the easiest job in WoW. Not the easiest job ever, because as any good tank can tell you, there's a lot more to being a good tank than stam stacking and grabbing the highest ilvl pieces you can get. but a lot of our work is done outside the game.

Actual tanking? Actually playing the game? Given a set of good DPS, my job is reduced to minor positioning (don't stand in fire), timing cooldowns, and taunt switching. And I really mean *minor* positioning.

Why am I bringing this up? Because here's my point: I think that the ease of tanking explains why many raid leaders are tanks. It's not en ego thing, it's not a primadonna thing, it's simply that the role of tank gives you the most "perepheral" time in game to survey the encounter.

Healers have their eyes glued to the green bars and to their feet -- playing whack a mole and dodging fire takes a LOT of concentration.

DPS (good dps) are running through what Blizzard has crafted into a pretty gorram complex DPS system. Most classes don't even have a rotation anymore -- they have priority systems, which are extremely complicated at high levels of performance.

Tanks stand still, press 3 buttons that are macroed, and refresh demo shout ocassionally. Furthermore, traditionally tanks are facing the raid, so it makes it even easier for them, at a glance, to see the rogue who didn't switch to the add, the hunter who Feigned death in a void zone, or the healer who is out of range. (s)he can glance at Omen and call out a hand of salv on the fury warrior who is pounding his 9k dps a little to hard into a boss's backside.

And let's be honest -- this pretty closely mirrors average America corporate structure. The supervisor at the top doesn't really do any work, at least as it is defined by the workers. She doesn't weld metal, fasten doors to hinges, answer phones for upset customers, or dust the top of the bookshelves. The supervisor sits in the office and sees everything. She should know whose job it is to answer the phones, and it's her responsibility to make sure that happens. She also learns the majority of her job outside of the workplace via college.

Now, could an assumption be made that raid leaders, like many supervisors, are egotistical power hungry primadonnas? Of course. And maybe that's where the "primadonna tank" mentality comes from.