"DLC" or "This topic would be better if it came on a disc."

beeporama wrote:

I don't think that's a viable job option anymore. The market will reject paying for incomplete games.

Most of the XBLA demos operate on a similar wavelength. (actually, I remember thinking this was kind of a continuation of the Shareware model, but updated to utilize downloadable platforms).

I can play a few levels of Braid and get a feeling for it before I get the "PRESS X TO PONY UP THE CASH AND UNLOCK THE GAME".

I wonder if this would work for tentpole releases. Instead of a demo, you get the first hour of Army of Two: 40 Days, then the option to pay for the full game.

Spaz wrote:
beeporama wrote:

I don't think that's a viable job option anymore. The market will reject paying for incomplete games.

Most of the XBLA demos operate on a similar wavelength. (actually, I remember thinking this was kind of a continuation of the Shareware model, but updated to utilize downloadable platforms).

I can play a few levels of Braid and get a feeling for it before I get the "PRESS X TO PONY UP THE CASH AND UNLOCK THE GAME".

I wonder if this would work for tentpole releases. Instead of a demo, you get the first hour of Army of Two: 40 Days, then the option to pay for the full game.

If anything steam and MSI installed games have the capacity for this. With steam you can start playing a half-life game that has not completed downloading, so long as the part you're playing has, and if you go into a new area it will download the needed parts as it goes (I haven't tested this). One of the features of a GFW branded game when it was introduced was that it could do a form of instant playing, where it installs the essentials to get started, and continues installing the rest in the background while the game is at the early stages, the only game I've heard that uses this was Halo2.

Both methods could be used to split a game up so that a subset of the game files are used as a demo, and a purchase just changes what set someone has access to.

Of course I make a thread I'm interested in participating in right before getting pulled away from the internets for like two days. Now there's too many damn replies and I have to skim through them and then say a bunch of stuff that's probably already been said but I don't know because I'm terrible at skimming.

I'll try to limit myself to responding directly to things that catch my eye so it looks like I've read the whole thing.

Lard wrote:

I know I'm just going to get shouted down, so I'm not even going to bother.

Aw, man. Now I'm sad. I made this thread hoping that you would jump in. You're definitely the most vocal anti-DLC guy around here and I was really hoping to better understand why that is. I know it's been talked about in the past and so I think I know where you're coming from, but I feel like there's still something I'm not getting. Maybe if I knew what that was, I wouldn't disagree with you as much. Oh well.

NSMike wrote:

Zero Day DLC is taboo to me. I don't like it. Smacks of a cold, cash grab.

I don't know if I agree that's always the case. It definitely seems to be in most, but you could also look at it this way for some games. Some games may offer a core experience that is essentially a complete game in itself for a reasonable price. The DLC on offer might be genuinely interesting additional content such as new characters, levels or gameplay types that are all pretty cheap and when everything is added up, the full package is a good-sized game for a good-sized price. For those that aren't going to get really heavily into the game, they may only want the core experience for, let's say, $10. For those that want to delve really deeply into everything the game has to offer, they may feel a $20 price for double the content is worth it. Then it's really just about you choosing how much game you want to have. I think that's alright, so long as the core game is a complete experience at a reasonable price. In fact, I'd rather have the option of having less game for less money sometimes. I don't need 100 levels in this puzzle game for $20 when I only want to play 50 levels. Let me pay $10, and if I want the other 50 levels, I'll pay the other $10 at that time.

NathanialG wrote:

On a final note, I think DLC is a stupid term. Everything we buy without discs is DLC. Someone come up with a better term.

That's what I'm talking about. As far as I'm concerned, all of Valve's games are DLC because I never buy the retail discs. Even if I did, as soon as you install the game you never need the disc anyway. You can uninstall, download and reinstall the game as many times as you want without the disc as long as the game is tied to your account.

So, yeah, what I'm talking about is any content that you download.

elewis17 wrote:

Dammit MS, as I said before, you are a mad genius/savant of sorts.

I totally thought you were talking to Microsoft for a second there because I am mentally unacceptable. Also, thanks for the smile attack.

Back on topic, this topic sort of went in a direction I wasn't anticipating because my brain is subnormal. Everyone's talking about the pricing of additional pay-to-diddle content for major releases, and that's all cool and such, but what I was getting at was how does everyone feel about the downloadable aspect of downloadable content? Do you hate that it exists only in some mythical netherealm in which your only method of interaction with it is to twist and pull the knobs and levers of your Computo-Buddy and long for the days of owning the raw data on primitive Holo-discs that you could slather with butter and rub sensuously all over your misshapen genitalia, or are you like me and wish to be nothing more than a torso affixed to a couch who can instantly access any and all forms of entertainment with the press of a shiny, sticky button as you salivate over thoughts of a time when you will no longer have to dedicate a portion of your living space to housing the various plastic tombs that hold your media?

I hate discs, and I hate getting up to put discs in different places so that I may experience what is on the discs. When I'm not exactly sure what I feel like doing or when I have a few minutes to kill, I cycle through my XBLA, PSN and/or WiiWare/VC games because I can choose from a variety of experiences without burning any calories. I have more unfinished games on PS2 than any other gaming system, including handhelds and PC, and those games stay unfinished because they're all the way over there and, man, Hexic is only a few button presses away.

That said, as much as I like the convenience of buying a game, downloading it and then playing it all without putting on pants, there's just nothing like walking out of a store with a shiny new box of something to be experienced after a short vehicular journey.

MechaSlinky wrote:

Do you hate that it exists only in some mythical netherealm in which your only method of interaction with it is to twist and pull the knobs and levers of your Computo-Buddy and long for the days of owning the raw data on primitive Holo-discs that you could slather with butter and rub sensuously all over your misshapen genitalia, or are you like me and wish to be nothing more than a torso affixed to a couch who can instantly access any and all forms of entertainment with the press of a shiny, sticky button as you salivate over thoughts of a time when you will no longer have to dedicate a portion of your living space to housing the various plastic tombs that hold your media?

Addressing this topic specifically I have no problem with it. One thing that the Internet has done, for good or ill, is make it absurdly easy to get any software program for free at the cost of making the damned thing work. I've used that method to replay many games that I'd previously bought on disc but lost so Steam succeeds by letting me always have access to my games without a hassle. By the same token I'm not really afraid that Valve will be a mean big brother and take my video games away because I can always go onto the same Internet and find those games guilt free (I paid for them after all).

Likewise I'm of the Napster generation so music's always been a digital thing, so buying from iTunes is fine and dandy. I tend to hoover through paperback books at a disturbing rate when I get in the mood so the Kindle is a fine replacement for just tossing said paperbacks to the library or used book store when I'm done.

Strangely, I'm not okay with downloading movies. My musical taste changes enough that losing an album or three isn't a big deal and I don't really replay games once I've moved beyond the OS/console they were designed for but I see movies and television shows (on DVD/BD) as something I'm going to keep for a long while. And while I love my downloadable content I don't honestly expect it to be there in fifteen years.

MechaSlinky wrote:

Do you hate that it exists only in some mythical netherealm in which your only method of interaction with it is to twist and pull the knobs and levers of your Computo-Buddy and long for the days of owning the raw data on primitive Holo-discs that you could slather with butter and rub sensuously all over your misshapen genitalia, or are you like me and wish to be nothing more than a torso affixed to a couch who can instantly access any and all forms of entertainment with the press of a shiny, sticky button as you salivate over thoughts of a time when you will no longer have to dedicate a portion of your living space to housing the various plastic tombs that hold your media?

Also addressing this specifically.

I don't often download games because African internet is slow and expensive, even keeping a game updated can be costly.

But, all things being equal I would rather download. I have lost access to exactly zero of my downloaded games so far, whereas in the last 2 years I've had at least 3 games with delaminated discs. These legitimately paid for 'objects' that supposedly guarantee that I will be able to play my game in a million years are just shiny printed coasters.

As I type this, I'm sitting next to a bookshelf jam-packed with DVDs, Blu-Rays, 360, PS3, Wii, DS, PS2, and PSP games. I'd love to be able to get rid of this crap and display more books, but I don't have the room, so the books stay in boxes in the basement.

I love my Kindle because I can do all my main reading with one small device, and I have access to my books anywhere via my iPhone.

The downloadable part is the best part about DLC.

Where possible I prefer physical media over digital distribution, simply because the tinfoil hat in me wonders what happens if the distributor goes out of business and I want to redownload my game. All other things being equal (including price), I'd prefer a boxed copy in a couple of days to a digital one now.

However, if digital distribution offers me a cheaper price, I'll go for it.

TheCounselor wrote:

As I type this, I'm sitting next to a bookshelf jam-packed with DVDs, Blu-Rays, 360, PS3, Wii, DS, PS2, and PSP games. I'd love to be able to get rid of this crap and display more books, but I don't have the room, so the books stay in boxes in the basement.

I love my Kindle because I can do all my main reading with one small device, and I have access to my books anywhere via my iPhone.

The downloadable part is the best part about DLC.

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/21...

In other words, your Kindle will periodically send information about you to Amazon. But exactly what information is sent? Amazon's wording -- "information related to the content on your Device and your use of it" -- reads so broadly that it appears to allow Amazon to track all content that users put on the device, regardless of whether that content is purchased from Amazon. Some security researchers have indicated that the Kindle may even be tracking its users' GPS locations. Is this the future of reading?

Yes, it's awesome all right.

Lard wrote:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/21...

In other words, your Kindle will periodically send information about you to Amazon. But exactly what information is sent? Amazon's wording -- "information related to the content on your Device and your use of it" -- reads so broadly that it appears to allow Amazon to track all content that users put on the device, regardless of whether that content is purchased from Amazon. Some security researchers have indicated that the Kindle may even be tracking its users' GPS locations. Is this the future of reading?

Yes, it's awesome all right.

Those are important things to consider, but it's presented in an extremely Chicken Little manner that doesn't indicate why those features exist. A "layman" would come away from that article with no more practical knowledge than he went in with. Sony isn't some benevolent corporation, the Sony Reader simply doesn't have the same capabilities as the Kindle.

Some of the areas they indicate users should be cautious about are qualities of how the device functions, and no different than a cellular phone (which is not suprising since the Kindle is using a cellular network). And the Google warnings aren't very different from any other Google service. Personally, I have the entire web history feature turned off, but I realize they still log information beyond that.

If you're that paranoid, turn off the wireless.

Anyway, data privacy is important, and I definitely support people being more aware of such issues, and the EFF should absolutely push to have such wording in Terms of Use and other such agreements clarified, but if you really think this is a big negative with digital content, you probably shouldn't be online in the first place.

Floomi wrote:

Where possible I prefer physical media over digital distribution, simply because the tinfoil hat in me wonders what happens if the distributor goes out of business and I want to redownload my game. All other things being equal (including price), I'd prefer a boxed copy in a couple of days to a digital one now.

However, if digital distribution offers me a cheaper price, I'll go for it.

I'm pretty much in the same camp as Floomi. I like having my stacks of disks. It feels more concrete. If Steam, or D2D, or Impulse close up shop tomorrow, what happens to all those virtual transactions I made? How do I access content that I paid for if the company disappears? I think D2D has a system in place for worst case scenario, but I don't know if the others do. That being said, it is damn convenient downloading stuff. THAT being said, I really miss getting nice manuals with my games.

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

NathanialG wrote:

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

That has nothing to do with digital media. Manuals have been crap for years. I rarely even look at them anymore. If I need answers, I hit the web. Four to six pages does not a manual make.

Jayhawker wrote:
NathanialG wrote:

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

That has nothing to do with digital media. Manuals have been crap for years. I rarely even look at them anymore. If I need answers, I hit the web. Four to six pages does not a manual make.

The major publishers have skipped on printing elaborate manuals long ago, opting for PDF's on the disc or links to their websites.

Rexneron wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
NathanialG wrote:

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

That has nothing to do with digital media. Manuals have been crap for years. I rarely even look at them anymore. If I need answers, I hit the web. Four to six pages does not a manual make.

The major publishers have skipped on printing elaborate manuals long ago, opting for PDF's on the disc or links to their websites.

And $20 game guides!

Rexneron wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
NathanialG wrote:

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

That has nothing to do with digital media. Manuals have been crap for years. I rarely even look at them anymore. If I need answers, I hit the web. Four to six pages does not a manual make.

The major publishers have skipped on printing elaborate manuals long ago, opting for PDF's on the disc or links to their websites.

I think game design might have a lot to do with this as well. I can't remember the last time I played a game that didn't explain most of the information previously printed in manuals "in-game".

Not that I don't have great memories of reading through manuals like the one for Warcraft II.

MechaSlinky wrote:

...what I was getting at was how does everyone feel about the downloadable aspect of downloadable content? Do you hate that it exists only in some mythical netherealm in which your only method of interaction with it is to twist and pull the knobs and levers of your Computo-Buddy and long for the days of owning the raw data on primitive Holo-discs that you could slather with butter and rub sensuously all over your misshapen genitalia

I am more tolerant of DLC than a lot of people, but I think you're on to something here. I'm a physical media fetishist, and the thrill of looking at cover art, popping open a case, inserting the disc, etc., is part of the joy.

I feel the same way about hardcover books, and some people feel the same way about vinyl albums.

This might be related to how I like to experience games. I am never "not exactly sure what I feel like doing" or just "have a few minutes to kill." I try to sit down deliberately with my epic game for an hour or several at a time, and pine for the once-every-few-months weekends when I can give myself to a ten-hour marathon. I always buy collector's editions, and I keep all my games on a shelf that is also full of action figures depicting characters from Final Fantasy, Assassin's Creed, Resident Evil, etc. It's enormously geeky, but a video game at its best isn't a way to pass time; it's a mini-vacation from which I want a souvenir.

At least I don't do fanfic. That's just weird.

Rexneron wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:
NathanialG wrote:

I also miss manuals. That is my one real beef with any digital media is the lack of well done paper reference materials.

That has nothing to do with digital media. Manuals have been crap for years. I rarely even look at them anymore. If I need answers, I hit the web. Four to six pages does not a manual make.

The major publishers have skipped on printing elaborate manuals long ago, opting for PDF's on the disc or links to their websites.

I've had a couple good manuals recently. X3 and Fallout 3 are the ones that come to mind right away.

I'm perpetually late to the party, at least as far as video/computer games go, so most of the difference between DLC and old-school expansions is lost on me. From my perspective, DLC is a bad thing when it doesn't make it into a later rerelease -- like when Oblivion GOTY included some but not all of the DLC, or when Sins of a Solar Empire GOTY came with a soundtrack CD instead of Entrenchment.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

If you're that paranoid, turn off the wireless.

Anyway, data privacy is important, and I definitely support people being more aware of such issues, and the EFF should absolutely push to have such wording in Terms of Use and other such agreements clarified, but if you really think this is a big negative with digital content, you probably shouldn't be online in the first place.

Also worth pointing out that if you shop on Amazon (which you'd have to do buy a Kindle) Amazon already has your name, address (maybe multiple addresses), phone number, email address, and credit card number. They might even have your bank account info too.

So, really, why the f*ck would Amazon want to track you through your Kindle, when they've already know where you live?

I'm also all for Internet Privacy and disclosure of how and when companies use your info, but I wish people would reason out the real consequences of these things and not immediately jump to the absurd conclusion that Amazon is attempting to steal Lard's Precious Bodily Fluids.

larrymadill wrote:

Also worth pointing out that if you shop on Amazon (which you'd have to do buy a Kindle) Amazon already has your name, address (maybe multiple addresses), phone number, email address, and credit card number. They might even have your bank account info too.

Actually, you can still fully use a Kindle without giving Amazon a dime for ebooks-- it recognizes the .prc extension that Mobipocket uses, so you can technically download them from MP or make them yourself and just upload them to the device via USB.

SommerMatt wrote:
larrymadill wrote:

Also worth pointing out that if you shop on Amazon (which you'd have to do buy a Kindle) Amazon already has your name, address (maybe multiple addresses), phone number, email address, and credit card number. They might even have your bank account info too.

Actually, you can still fully use a Kindle without giving Amazon a dime for ebooks-- it recognizes the .prc extension that Mobipocket uses, so you can technically download them from MP or make them yourself and just upload them to the device via USB.

But to buy the Kindle itself you still need to give them the information Larry mentioned so he's still correct.

bnpederson wrote:
SommerMatt wrote:
larrymadill wrote:

Also worth pointing out that if you shop on Amazon (which you'd have to do buy a Kindle) Amazon already has your name, address (maybe multiple addresses), phone number, email address, and credit card number. They might even have your bank account info too.

Actually, you can still fully use a Kindle without giving Amazon a dime for ebooks-- it recognizes the .prc extension that Mobipocket uses, so you can technically download them from MP or make them yourself and just upload them to the device via USB.

But to buy the Kindle itself you still need to give them the information Larry mentioned so he's still correct.

While I hesitate to push the thread further offtopic, I do wonder: what's the big deal? At this point I'd assume we all know why Amazon collects information on us. They're not using it to sell to third parties. They use it in their own internal algorithms to make better recommendations for us. Out of those who shop Amazon, how many have had something come up in their recommendations that they had never heard of, but were completely sold on? I know I have. Welll, information is what makes that happen. Google does it too, by the way, and in the same manner.

The world is coming to the point where information is the new power. As time goes by, less and less will be easily concealable without totally cutting yourself off from everything out there. Is that a bad thing? I suppose some folks think so. I'd even agree that when abused, it absolutely is. I just don't see that happening with the things people get so uppity about.

larrymadill wrote:
unntrlaffinity wrote:

If you're that paranoid, turn off the wireless.

Anyway, data privacy is important, and I definitely support people being more aware of such issues, and the EFF should absolutely push to have such wording in Terms of Use and other such agreements clarified, but if you really think this is a big negative with digital content, you probably shouldn't be online in the first place.

Also worth pointing out that if you shop on Amazon (which you'd have to do buy a Kindle) Amazon already has your name, address (maybe multiple addresses), phone number, email address, and credit card number. They might even have your bank account info too.

So, really, why the f*ck would Amazon want to track you through your Kindle, when they've already know where you live?

I'm also all for Internet Privacy and disclosure of how and when companies use your info, but I wish people would reason out the real consequences of these things and not immediately jump to the absurd conclusion that Amazon is attempting to steal Lard's Precious Bodily Fluids.

They don't know where my dry cleaner is, or what coffee shop I go to in the morning.

Dude, my life is so damn boring, if someone wants to waste their time tracking my movements, more power to them. There are easier ways to get my money, like offering a good product and making it easy to use. Amazon did that with the Kindle. Steam does that. XBox Live and PSN do that. I'll just go back to living my life. I don't have anything to hide, and I really don't care if some computer at Amazon, or the FBI, knows what I'm reading

Just an idea I had, but would you pay extra for a game at launch to guarantee you got any and all DLC released for it for free?

Say you buy Gears 3, and the standard edition costs $60. But, for $80, you get a code that allows you access to every map pack that Epic releases for the game. It's kinda like buying the Game of the Year edition at launch.

Another idea would be paying a premium for XBL Platinum, but having access to free DLC and all XBLA games free.

Granted, there'd probably have to be some guarantee of content, and I don't think every franchise would do well with this model, but for those that have already proven that the developer will support the game with new DLC post-launch, why not?

TheCounselor wrote:

Just an idea I had, but would you pay extra for a game at launch to guarantee you got any and all DLC released for it for free?

Say you buy Gears 3, and the standard edition costs $60. But, for $80, you get a code that allows you access to every map pack that Epic releases for the game. It's kinda like buying the Game of the Year edition at launch.

It's a neat idea, but I think it is begging for feeling ripped off. If developers think gamers on the the forums have a displaced sense of entitlement now, wait till you pre-charge them for a DLC for a game they haven't played yet.

Look at the people that rail on Gears 2 for it's problems with balancing and host advantage, and other issues. Imagine if those folks had paid extra for DLC content. There would have been some serious meltdowns.

TheCounselor wrote:

Just an idea I had, but would you pay extra for a game at launch to guarantee you got any and all DLC released for it for free?

Say you buy Gears 3, and the standard edition costs $60. But, for $80, you get a code that allows you access to every map pack that Epic releases for the game. It's kinda like buying the Game of the Year edition at launch.

Another idea would be paying a premium for XBL Platinum, but having access to free DLC and all XBLA games free.

Granted, there'd probably have to be some guarantee of content, and I don't think every franchise would do well with this model, but for those that have already proven that the developer will support the game with new DLC post-launch, why not?

It really depends for me. There are certain games where, assuming it came with a guarantee of at least as much DLC to cover the extra cost, I'd do it in a heart beat. Others, I'd probably buy normally and add DLC as it came. Here's the short version of games I would have paid extra up front for all the future DLC:

Forza 3
Fallout 3
Crackdown 2 - Not even out and I'd take that risk
Rock Band 2 - I don't suppose this one would count, given the DLC driven nature of it

All in all, I think it's a good idea. I've always been more excited about more content for a game I already have than I have about a new version of a game, unless it's taken a decade to release a new version with no new content in the meantime for the old version, *cough*Diablo3*cough*.

AnimeJ wrote:

Rock Band 2 - I don't suppose this one would count, given the DLC driven nature of it

All in all, I think it's a good idea. I've always been more excited about more content for a game I already have than I have about a new version of a game, unless it's taken a decade to release a new version with no new content in the meantime for the old version, *cough*Diablo3*cough*.

They could include all the DLC, but then the game would cost $2,500 and come with a new hard drive.

Jayhawker wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:

Just an idea I had, but would you pay extra for a game at launch to guarantee you got any and all DLC released for it for free?

Say you buy Gears 3, and the standard edition costs $60. But, for $80, you get a code that allows you access to every map pack that Epic releases for the game. It's kinda like buying the Game of the Year edition at launch.

It's a neat idea, but I think it is begging for feeling ripped off. If developers think gamers on the the forums have a displaced sense of entitlement now, wait till you pre-charge them for a DLC for a game they haven't played yet.

Look at the people that rail on Gears 2 for it's problems with balancing and host advantage, and other issues. Imagine if those folks had paid extra for DLC content. There would have been some serious meltdowns.

I don't think it'll work for every game, obviously, but there are some, like Fallout 3, Forza 3, Gears, Halo, etc. that have always had a lot of extra content, and a rabid fan base that eagerly gobbles that content up. I'd have included MW2, but IW only released one map pack for COD4, so they have to prove themselves.

Lard wrote:

Some security researchers have indicated that the Kindle may even be tracking its users' GPS locations.

Man, if I had a Kindle, I'd want Amazon to be tracking my location via GPS. It's not like they could use that to hurt me in any way. I can't imagine them profiting off of this knowledge, either, because who the hell am I that anyone should care where I was reading at any given time? But, if I get kidnapped, maybe the police can use this GPS information to find me!

MechaSlinky wrote:
Lard wrote:

Some security researchers have indicated that the Kindle may even be tracking its users' GPS locations.

Man, if I had a Kindle, I'd want Amazon to be tracking my location via GPS. It's not like they could use that to hurt me in any way. I can't imagine them profiting off of this knowledge, either, because who the hell am I that anyone should care where I was reading at any given time? But, if I get kidnapped, maybe the police can use this GPS information to find me!

Ironically, this can't happen in California without a lot of paperwork and ribbon cutting under current laws due to consumer privacy rules. I know this because a friend of mine's father recently went missing and they could not get Verizon to track him using his GPS enabled phone. His dead body was found 5 days later in an coroner's office, they were unable to identify him correctly when they first took him in. It took Verizon 3 days after LAPD asked them to cooperate to even being to being using any tracking technologies, but by then it was too late and I believe the phone battery was drained or turned off. If the missing person wasn't a well known violinist for the Los Angeles Philharmonic I'm sure Verizon wouldn't have gone through the trouble of initiating a search, as they legally could not do anything due to consumer privacy laws that would not allow tracking unless initiated by the individual, and they had to go through legal loop jumping to get it done.

Eh, sorry for the rant but I knew the people involved so that commented touched a nerve.