Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E (WFRP) - Thoughts?

Fantasy Flight Games is putting out a third edition of the classic RPG sometime this fall or winter. You can get a broad overview of it over at the FFG WFRP site.

The third edition is a major overhaul of the basic mechanics of the game. The percentile dice of previous editions have been tossed out in favor of dice pools (FFG overview) composed of seven different types of specialty dice that each represent different aspects of trying to do something.

The other significant change is that abilities will now be represented by action cards (FFG overview (3/4 way down)). These come in a couple of flavors: the permanent kind and single-use abilities that are only refreshed between adventures.

There's a handful of other changes as well that range from the welcome (Combat streamlining) to the silly (the progress tracker, a glorified slide rule), but those are mostly asides.

What do people think about this, if they think anything?

Personally, I'd be happy about these changes if were talking about a system like Dungeons & Dragons (which has traditionally featured more combat and more rules "crunch") than Warhammer FRP. I can't say I ever played it a great deal, but it always seemed to be a low-combat, high-roleplaying sort of affair. I can't really say a bunch of new dice and new chits really lends itself to that.

Also, I tend to tweak my rules and abilities for RPG campaigns that I run, so the idea of having set-in-stone "ability cards" doesn't sit well with me.

Then again, FFG makes many fine products and I have yet to be totally disappointed by them. Plus, knowing me and Warhammer Fantasy, I'm probably going to pick it up one way or another.

I am a little unsure of all the changes being made. D&D has always been my "complicated" fantasy RPG and WFRP has been my "simple" fantasy RPG for the last few years. With 2nd edition all I had to do was show up at the game with a copy of the rules, 2 ten-sided dice and my character sheet. Not really looking for a bunch of fiddly sets of dice and cards.

Hopefully I can get a demo at a local game store, but I doubt I will be picking this up anytime soon. As it is, my gaming budget is going to be blown on a copy of FFG's new Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader RPG next month anyway :).

I wrote a massive review on BGG about it; I'll repost it here for convenience.

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Before I dive into the review, I wanted to touch on my history with the IP so that you, gentle reader, can understand where this review is coming from. By the by, I am known as HedgeWizard on a ton of other forums, FFG's in particular.

I was ambivalent when I heard the news that FFG was remaking WFRP. Afterall, I was an old school WFRP GM; I picked up the original in 1986 and it quickly became my favorite RPG setting and one of my favorite systems. The Green Ronin / Black Industries version 2 to me was a huge improvement to the system (and a step back in setting). I of course owned all of the source book material and handful of the new adventures. I particularly loved the Realms of Sorcery and Tome of Corruption books that were put out for v2.

When FFG picked up the license, I wasn't sure what to make of it. I own and adore a great many FFG boardgames, but I wasn't familiar with their RPG work. However, I did pick up the Career Compendium when it debuted, and it quickly became one of my favorite source books ever. That book suggested to me that FFG new the game, new the player base and were going to do well.

Then I heard they were doing a complete revamp... uh oh I thought. Then the designer diaries came out, and while I liked some ideas (the abstract range system for instance), there were a lot more I was very, very unsure about: the dice pool mechanic, the plethora of cards & chits, the much limited career set in comparison with the v1/v2 corebooks, and so on. I knew they understood the setting (and would thankfully be allowed to reset the timeline to pre-Storm of Chaos). But the mechanics were integral to giving players the feel of the Old World.

Still, I kept an open mind, and saw some advantages to what they were doing. I am blessed to have a decent income and figured I would at least buy it and try it out myself before I made any judgements. Now that I have had a chance to read through the system, play a few games, I feel like I can confidently review this new version.

[size=18]BEGIN THE REVIEW![/size]

:soblue:The Bad:
Yes, there are a limited number of careers. Yes, spell casters are limited to three colleges, divine casters are limited to three cults. I know why this is so; because of the production limitation. Careers are cards, spells are cards. More cards increases costs; the core set was already expensive enough. Still I was dismayed over the lack of casting option, particularly the absence of Hedge Wizardry, Necromancy and Chaotic magic - all musts in the campaign I had written.

The layout of the rules are a problem. Sometimes there are rules buried in what appears to be flavor text. Some rules are repeated in various places (I am looking at you rules for successes). Because of this, it is doubly important for a GM to thoroughly read through the books, and in my case, I built some fairly thorough GM guides to remind me of the rules.

The components are limited. This is not really too bad of a problem if you have a copier on hand, but I've seen a lot of griping that player's can't all be the same career, or have the same abilities or spells. To me, that's a straw man, as it's quite easy to note the info down just like you did in days of old, or you can copy materials. Still, it is an inconvenience, and one I fully acknowledge.

The character sheets aren't comprehensive. They don't cover things like physical characteristics, of which I mean, height, weight, features, etc. There isn't a place to note your birthplace, your dooming (which they don't offer in this version... yet), and other flavor background. They're designed to use 1 sheet per character, per career, which is a necessity given the new advance mechanic, but I would have liked to have seen a larger, more comprehensive sheet.

:)The Good.

The system is very rules "light." What I mean is that this isn't a system that spells out the mechanics for arbitrating wearing plate and trying to swim across a raging river. It doesn't tell you explicitly that if you are flanked by three or more enemies you suffer a penalty or they receive X bonus. What it does do is allow the GM and players to come up with something, very quickly, on the fly, that makes sense. This is possible through their very ingenious dice pool system.

Yes, there are quite a few multi-colored dice with a fistful of symbols. But, that daunting prospect is moot as they totally and utterly are understandable at a quick glance within a handful of your first rolls. It really becomes quite intuitive, and then it's a matter of quickly:

1. Deciding what the base difficulty of a task is
2. Adding misfortune dice for negative modifiers as they make sense
3. Adding fortune dice for positive modifiers as they make sense. [/c]

No adding and subtracting to come up with one modifier for a percentile or other roll. Just roll and count the successes. Then you can very easily see if there are net boons (good fortune has favored you) or net banes (bad fortune has struck) and come up with a narrative explanation for the action. It's very elegant, it's faster than I thought it would be, my players have picked up the system very quickly, and best of all, it promotes a sense of free form play.

A note on that last bit: I have run or played in a lot of systems over the years, including the more free form narrative/no-dice games up through Rolemaster and its brethren which has a table for EVERYTHING. Before I played this new version, I didn't realize how constrained I was feeling by heavier rule sets. I've come to really appreciate the ease with which I can size up a challenge (issue the appropriate number of challenge dice) and then add misfortune and fortune dice in a way that makes sense for the action, situation, character and story. At first what I saw was a drawback (not having a lot of rules explicitly rendered), is now a huge aid for me in being able to come up with appropriate challenges on the fly.

And to be honest, at this point, the rules have disappeared. After just a couple of plays, even my rule cheat sheets have disappeared into the background. I reference them very infrequently throughout play as the system has become that intuitive to us. Amazingly too, all of the components have disappeared into the background. Yes, there are a way more fiddly bits than any other RPG I've run, but they do aid in storytelling and they disappear as much as the character sheets of yore did.

I was concerned initially with all of the tracking; track fatigue, stress, recharges, stances, etc. But the mechanical aspect of tracking these isn't that far away from ticks on a sheet (being written and erased over, and over, and over). Yes, recharges on actions (like parry and dodge for instance) is a bit MMO-esque. But I can see the mechanical rationale for it (you're in a conservative stance and take a long time aiming the perfect shot; you lost the time to prepare your parry for example), and to be honest, even that has disappeared. It's managed quite easily, and players do it as an afterthought at this point. They announce what they're doing, grab a chit and place it in the right place, and they're onto to narrating their action and rolling the dice.

Career advancement is substantially different in this version, mechanically anyway, but it is structured such that every character even if they're sharing the same career, can be developed quite differently, and the choices can be quite meaningful. They could push their stance to a more reckless style, they can focus on one skill over another, or acquire a broad range of skills, or increase a characteristic. It all adds up to differentiating your character based on what your conception of your character is and not on a mandated, across-the-board set of advancements.

I do appreciate that much of the Tome of Adventure is written to facilitate planning and designing adventures. Yes, it's geared a bit towards the new GM who might not have thought about things like pacing, and player hooks, and arbitrating the odd test here and there. But there are some genuine good ideas on how to incorporate their novel tracking mechanics into your scenarios, which if nothing else, acts as a springboard for creating new situations.

Socially focused careers have new abilities via action cards geared towards influencing NPCs. It's not as robust as Green Ronin's excellent intrigue system in a Song of Ice and Fire RPG, but it does a great job at providing a means for socially capable characters to influence play in an organic-to-the-system way. What is particularly enjoyable, is many of these social action cards/abilities are "support" trait cards; meaning they help the group performance overall. Many players are referring to the social influence system as "social combat" which isn't too far off the mark.

Players roll initiative, based on Fellowship instead of Agility. They can maneuver and take actions (use abilities, cards, make checks) to influence the target, and so on. The suggestion is to create a simple influence track such that successes from the PC's actions move the counter one way, successes or thwarts from the NPC move the tracker another way. A GM can quickly build an appropriate length track (say it requires 6 influence to get the deal, or 10 for the baron to throw is support behind them, etc.) and get to the haggling.

Again, the rules don't prescribe a mandated way to resolve these situations, rather they offer you some suggestions and allow you to use what makes sense for your story and for your game group. That amount of freedom bothers some, particularly rules-lawyer types who prefer to point to a rule and stick to the letter of the law in all circumstances, partly because it is precisely & fairly applied to everyone everywhere. I find myself relishing the lack of hard and fast rules and instead revel in the fluid and fast ability to construct something that makes sense and works on the fly.

I've come to appreciate the party sheet and the tension meter. I think too many people focused on the notion that the tension meter should be used to track meta-game arguments. Yes, examples were given of players not deciding on actions fast enough, or having at-the-table arguments as reasons to adjust the meter. They chose to focus on that instead of seeing the other opportunities: racial tension between character races, situations that place high pressure on the group to perform, terrifying monsters who not only add stress to characters but put stress on the group, etc.

The party sheet also gives me a way to reward smart or engaging play; instead of piling accolades on one player who is an awesome actor and really dives into his role as a character (thereby possibly upsetting the XP balance which is how most games reward good play), I can reward the entire party for his skills while also rewarding the other players for thinking of creative solutions to problems in character. Essentially the GM adds fortune tokens to the sheet, and when there are an equal number of tokens as there are characters, everyone takes on token from the sheet for their personal use. Fortune is used to buy fortune dice, or to reduce action recharges. I've even extended it to buying clues/items. So if the players are stuck in an investigation, they can burn fortune to help alleviate their frustration (maybe they come across a note, or someone offers up a piece of information). Maybe a PC is stuck in an alley without their weapon, they can burn a fortune to have something at hand; a board with some nails in it, etc.

Finally, even with the lack of some content (again, limited careers, spells, etc) I find it VERY easy to make my own iterations based on my understanding of the system. You quickly get a sense of whether a power should cost two favor or a comet, and what might happen if a PC gets two banes instead, and voila! You have a new spell.

All in all, you can see I wrote a lot more about what I found favorable in the new system than the problems I felt were worth noting. I definitely see there are valid complaints with the creation and timing of this product (and I see a lot more from people who just like to troll, or hate the cult of the new, etc).

It has its shortcomings, as does EVERY system that you didn't personally design for yourself. But on balance, I find the following to be true:

1. The mechanics support the theme. The world is still grim, and gritty and dangerous. Casters still suffer from the twin effects of societal fear of casters and the raw power of chaos and its ability to twist magic. Combat is fast and deadly. Yes, starting characters are a little more capable than in prior versions, but to me that ends up in less downtime as characters flail to achieve things or hit targets. I don't find the difference grossly out of line; peasants are peasants (or in this case commoners) and life still sucks for them.

Casters can over channel and suffer the results, or worse, miscast a spell and get fried for dabbling in chaos, to say nothing of the public's reaction to their deeds. Insanities are gained with alarming regularity, and while not as described as in-depth compared to prior incarnations, these have wonderful mechanical implications spelled out.

Critical wounds aren't as devastating; in most cases in prior versions, a critical was almost guaranteed to kill. Here, you can suffer one (or three) critical througout a fight, each of which has a mechanical effect. Wounds are tracked through cards; you take 10 wounds, you grab 10 wound cards. If three are criticals, you flip over three cards and voila, there are the criticals and the effects.

Gone are the days of percentile body hit locations. I know some people loved that, and I did too, but I am a little surprised here that I don't miss it. Also gone are the rolls for parrying. Everything is handled in one roll; if your opponent can (and wants to attempt to) parry, add a certain number of misfortune to your roll. It's all handled in one roll... and thus combat ends up being quite a bit faster as a result of these changes, and still just as deadly.

2. The majority of the mechanical components disappear after the first 20 minutes of play. Rolling becomes quick, chits fade into the background, and the focus is all on the action. The one issue we did find was players sorting through their action cards the first few sessions to get a sense of what they could do, much like a spellcaster would constantly review their spells in other games. But to be honest, it's not that much different than a player who hadn't read the rules thoroughly and doesn't know they can parry versus dodge, or go all-out-attack versus defensive attack, etc.

One problem I want to address: cost for material. A given RPG isn't likely to thrive, and perhaps won't survive, without being able to sell us new material. A book for casters, a book for cults, a book for monsters, a book for a region, etc. etc. etc. This is no different here, except in terms of scale. If you wanted more careers in v2, you needed to make your own, or buy a supplement that had the careers. If you wanted more chaos spells, you needed the Tome of Corruption; if you wanted some additional Necromantic magic, you could buy the Night's Dark Masters book. If you wanted all the college spells, you bought Realms of Sorcery and so on. Each of those books had more careers, sometimes more skills and talents, etc.

Here you are starting at a deficiency in terms of careers (again, because of the cost of producing the associated materials of cards, components), but you can acquire more. I do think what is included in the core set is more than enough to start a new campaign in this awesome setting; no you won't be able to transport your characters from your old campaign who are into their fourth careers. But you have enough to go a goodly distance while new supplements come out (and they're already being printed and/or shipped as of this writing).

Plus, as I mentioned, it really isn't that hard to convert the careers of old into the careers of the new. The components do facilitate playing the game, and help keep those rulebooks closed, but still some are going to balk at their inclusion and how that ramps the start-up and maintenance cost of the game. This review has already run long enough that I am not going to do a cost comparison on a book-by-book basis (this one had x# of careers, spells, etc.)

[size=18]The Final Word[/size]

I will leave it with this: if you can't afford the base set among you and three players; if the idea of playing a very good ROLEPLAYING game that uses cards puts you off, if you feel that you can't possibly write actions down on a piece of paper to accommodate a fourth, fifth or sixth player just like you used to in other games offends you - this game is not for you.

If you are interested in a beautifully rendered game, with an elegant action resolution system, and a penchant for a down and dirty world settings AND you're willing to pay the price of entry for you and three friends +, this new version of WFRP is quite a treat!

Wow, great write up. I wish I had a group to play with!

I picked up the box set for $99 and my group will run it. I'm a little taken aback by the game because it's so different from what i'm used to playing.

Ack! My review has been sitting on BGG for over a week now, and I just noticed I spelled 'knew' as 'new.' Uggh. Time for an edit!

Excellent write up HedgeWizard. Pity I'm not planning on picking up any new fantasy books at the moment.

I wonder if you would do a write up of Eclipse Phase? Would love to hear your thoughts on it. It's also released under a Creative Commons License and thus the PDF version can be downloaded for free. Hit me up if you would like a copy of said PDF.

Falchion wrote:

Excellent write up HedgeWizard. Pity I'm not planning on picking up any new fantasy books at the moment.

I wonder if you would do a write up of Eclipse Phase? Would love to hear your thoughts on it. It's also released under a Creative Commons License and thus the PDF version can be downloaded for free. Hit me up if you would like a copy of said PDF.

You tempt me good sir; I am always on the lookout for good RPGs and interesting game worlds/systems, but sadly my time is ultra-limited these days, and what free time I have of late has been spent writing a campaign, creating player/GM aids, and helping folks with WFRP v3. I might hit you up early in the new year though.

Also - you can now buy the core books as digital downloads, individually or in a set.

HedgeWizard wrote:

You tempt me good sir; I am always on the lookout for good RPGs and interesting game worlds/systems, but sadly my time is ultra-limited these days, and what free time I have of late has been spent writing a campaign, creating player/GM aids, and helping folks with WFRP v3. I might hit you up early in the new year though.

Also - you can now buy the core books as digital downloads, individually or in a set.

Not a problem. I fully understand that GM-ing a tabletop RPG takes alot of commitment and time to a singular system.

Thanks for the link, pity it's not the complete game without the cards and such. It's ok though, I'm not really keen in a fantasy RPG at the moment.

I am rally intrigued in the new WHFRP, but can't really justify it, as I'm still playing Dark Heresy and hope to delve into Rogue Trader next, maybe some time next year. The whole concept appeals to me a lot as I see that the numerous components actually make the prospect of playing a roleplaying game somewhat less intimidating - it's sort of that you have something to back up your imagination. Certainly it's more approachable than something like D&D.

It looks to me like FFG is looking for ways to bring board gamers into roleplaying games. Many of their own board games (Arkham Horror, Descent for instance) are a small step away from being "traditional" RPGs already.

I agree; I think FFG is hoping to bridge the gap between board gamers and RPG gamers, or at least expose a whole new generation to the joys of telling stories. Unfortunately, they don't have the marketing budget of a Hasbro/WOTC to throw at the problem, but it does appear that they are succeeding at attracting new blood with the this new version.

I totally acknowledge there are design decisions in v3 that some folks just don't care for, but I personally find it very liberating to be a GM using this free-form system. In addition, I am really enjoying writing a new campaign for this system, as opposed to it being some I need to do in order to get to the actual playing.

I haven't been this excited to run an RPG since I was in Junior High when I picked up the first iteration of WFRP.

HedgeWizard wrote:

I agree; I think FFG is hoping to bridge the gap between board gamers and RPG gamers, or at least expose a whole new generation to the joys of telling stories. Unfortunately, they don't have the marketing budget of a Hasbro/WOTC to throw at the problem, but it does appear that they are succeeding at attracting new blood with the this new version.

I do wonder why they picked WHFRP for this treatment, though. It's never been very approachable because it's really rather far from the standard high fantasy fare. It would've made more sense to me to go with something close to Tolkienesque/D&D fantasy. Then again, WH is a very cool IP, can't complain!

HedgeWizard wrote:

I haven't been this excited to run an RPG since I was in Junior High when I picked up the first iteration of WFRP.

To me, this is the best possible recommendation. Dark Heresy did this to me and really managed to re-spark my RPG hobby.