In Which We Learn New Things About Russia

Rexneron wrote:

Wasn't part of the point of dismantling the Polish missile defense system to appease Russia into backing Iranian sanctions? It seems pretty clear that Russia and China are trying to get as much out of Obama's appeasement campaign without returning any favors.

Back in July the Russians agreed to allow the U.S. to use Russian airspace to fly into Afghanistan. The deal permits up to 4,500 military flights a year carrying troops, weapons, supplies- whatever. So we got at least something in the trade.

Prederick wrote:

And let's talk about Gas Pipelines and politics!

That one I never really understood. Some Eastern European countries are afraid that they will lose access to Russian and Central Asian gas (or price advantage they're enjoying now thanks to the transit fees) if Russia takes their pipelines elsewhere.

Are they entitled to Russian gas somehow? Is it something holy and sacred, something that they're supposed to have even if they continue to court The West while at the same time distancing themselves away from a country that is their strategic energy supplier?

It's a tough economic choice, similar to contemplation of whether to eat the cake or not, I guess. You've got to be mindful of the realities in the region (and the reality is that Russia does and will continue to project certain clout) and at least try not to piss off your powerful neighbors -- whether that neighbor is USA, if you're in the Americas, or China, if you're in South-East Asia, or (gasp!) Russia, if you're in Eastern Europe or Central Asia. Or, you can go and be "free and proud" -- and poor, and sometimes cold during the especially bitter times of the season.

Or, I guess, you can live in a fantasy world and assume that "The West" will bring you not only Coca-Cola, military bases, "western-oriented leaders", and labor-arbitration manufacturing schemes, but somehow also cheap natural gas and petrol.

Kudos to Russia, I say, for using purely economic leverage for projecting their influence, and not saber-rattling with mobile ICMBs and amassing tank armies on the borders, as in the days of yore.

Note that this "pipelines blackmail" is particularly American press thing. European press -- FT or IHT, for example -- are far more sober. I account it to the fact that USA is still in the early stages of becoming accustomed to a world where someone else dares to project influence, too.

I'm with you on that. We ridicule North Korea for engaging in blackmail panhandling, but celebrate it when Eastern European nations do it to Russia.

Paleocon wrote:

I'm with you on that. We ridicule North Korea for engaging in blackmail panhandling, but celebrate it when Eastern European nations do it to Russia.

Well, if Russia is allowed to use its leverage then why should Ukraine be snarked about when it does the same with the leverage is has? I mean, let`s go realpolitik all the way then. Both sides use gas transit as political as much as economical tool, 50/50.

Personally, I don`t have a bone here, my country is so small that we are always on the receiving end of the stick whenever Russia decides to throw a fit, but if someone has the clout why shouldnt they use it, Russia uses whatever clout is has all the time, after all.

Most wrote:

Well, if Russia is allowed to use its leverage then why should Ukraine be snarked about when it does the same with the leverage is has? I mean, let`s go realpolitik all the way then. Both sides use gas transit as political as much as economical tool, 50/50.

I think you're absolutely right.

In fact, Ukraine did precisely that during the last price dispute. Russia started withdrawing Ukraine's share of pumped volume because Ukraine was in arrears and tried driving a hard re-negotiation bargain, Ukraine has shut off the entire downstream flow to Western Europe, and siphoned off "technical gas" from the pipe (needed there to maintain the pressure). With the rationale for that evidently being that Europe will pay attention to the issue and will side with Ukraine on it.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Most wrote:

Well, if Russia is allowed to use its leverage then why should Ukraine be snarked about when it does the same with the leverage is has? I mean, let`s go realpolitik all the way then. Both sides use gas transit as political as much as economical tool, 50/50.

I think you're absolutely right.

In fact, Ukraine did precisely that during the last price dispute. Russia started withdrawing Ukraine's share of pumped volume because Ukraine was in arrears and tried driving a hard re-negotiation bargain, Ukraine has shut off the entire downstream flow to Western Europe, and siphoned off "technical gas" from the pipe (needed there to maintain the pressure). With the rationale for that evidently being that Europe will pay attention to the issue and will side with Ukraine on it.

Sounds about right. I think the problem here is often the shortsightedness of East European governments - they (we) go about the issue as if the future was clear and gas would flow through those pipes forever and ever, for prices that are way down below market average. So Ukraine politics are now basically hostage to the gas flow, since their energy sources arent diversified enough to live through winter if Russia decides to play rough.

I'm with Most (living in one of the "victim" countries as well) - the problem is basically that there was done no diversification of gas supplies in most of the Eastern European countries, with possible exception of Czech republic and Poland (both have Norwegian gas coming through separate route than from Russia) and Romania, which has its own gas fields amounting to 80 percent of the domestic demand.
The story is this: for a long time the gas utilities have been state-owned, meaning their aim was to keep the gas prices for citizens as low as possible (deregulation after privatization came as a real shock some six years ago). This also meant that there was no money to invest in arcane things such as alternate routes and the old Russian gas line was exclusively used, not to mention that import of Western European gas would be costly and therefore incur losses (regulated prices were really low). Moreover in my country the state owned gas utility also had to pay a set amount (apart from the taxes) directly to the state budget. Most of the profits was made from transit, not the sale of gas, mind you, this cross-subsidization had to stop only after entering the EU. It really was considered a cash cow and as such no substantial infrastructural investments have been made as long as the money kept rolling in. Which leads us to the fact that yes, most of the Eastern Europe has a single supplier of gas to rely on and it's totally the fault of the shortsightedness of countries' governments themselves. The diversification would mean increasing the gas prices which is a decision most governments don't want to be responsible for.

Relations between the former Soviet Union and the United States thawed a long time ago and we no longer live in fear of mutually assured destruction. But Russia remains an economic powerhouse and a major player on the world stage. Russia has a rich cultural history and a sometimes brutal military legacy and for most Americans, it remains the “undiscovered” country. Russia’s economy has been in a state of flux since before the Bolshevik revolution but it is interesting to note how the differences in geography, population, and the role of the military ultimately play into the entire economic relationship. A country with that many Grandmasters can’t be counted out.

In order to help compare and contrast the economic differences, we have simplified the data from the CIA World Factbook and NationMaster.com. For the exact numbers in any category, check here and here.

IMAGE(http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/RussiaEconomy.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/RussiaPeople.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/RussiaEnvironment.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/RussiaMilitary.jpg)
IMAGE(http://www.mint.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/RussiaOffbeat.jpg)

IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?i=VqhbiYfRWE8:w8zUCZVrnzI:D7DqB2pKExk) IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?i=VqhbiYfRWE8:w8zUCZVrnzI:gIN9vFwOqvQ) IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?i=VqhbiYfRWE8:w8zUCZVrnzI:F7zBnMyn0Lo) IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?i=VqhbiYfRWE8:w8zUCZVrnzI:V_sGLiPBpWU) IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?d=dnMXMwOfBR0) IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Eff/MyMint?d=yIl2AUoC8zA)
IMAGE(http://feeds.feedburner.com/%7Er/MyMint/%7E4/VqhbiYfRWE8)

Looking at these stats reminds me that Russia is by some standards a sad place to live looking even from my Central-Eastern European perspective.

Stats are useless without scales. First rule of statistics/economics.

VDOWhoNeedsDD wrote:

Stats are useless without scales. First rule of statistics/economics.

Meh -- just the inference of big/little/same is enough to get a point across. Clearly it could be misleading, but then I'm not making important decisions based on thsoe charts, I'm viewing them on a gaming web site.

We must close this Chess Grandmaster gap! We are militarily deficient without it!

Also, I volunteer to help close the alcohol consumption gap.

Good find, Edwin. Interesting to see the differences between two "first world" countries portrayed so succinctly.

I find it interesting that there seems to be an exact match between happiness levels and number of rollercoasters. We're kicking your asses in rollercoasters and happiness, you miserable russki bastards.

Funkenpants wrote:

I find it interesting that there seems to be an exact match between happiness levels and number of rollercoasters. We're kicking your asses in rollercoasters and happiness, you miserable russki bastards.

I wonder how much of that is genetic and cultural though. I know a number of Russian Americans who have been here for generations. ALL of them suffer from stereotypical levels of Slavic Pessimism.

Paleocon wrote:
Funkenpants wrote:

I find it interesting that there seems to be an exact match between happiness levels and number of rollercoasters. We're kicking your asses in rollercoasters and happiness, you miserable russki bastards.

I wonder how much of that is genetic and cultural though. I know a number of Russian Americans who have been here for generations. ALL of them suffer from stereotypical levels of Slavic Pessimism.

So what you're saying is that...communists don't like rollercoasters?

The bastards.

VDOWhoNeedsDD wrote:
Paleocon wrote:
Funkenpants wrote:

I find it interesting that there seems to be an exact match between happiness levels and number of rollercoasters. We're kicking your asses in rollercoasters and happiness, you miserable russki bastards.

I wonder how much of that is genetic and cultural though. I know a number of Russian Americans who have been here for generations. ALL of them suffer from stereotypical levels of Slavic Pessimism.

So what you're saying is that...communists don't like rollercoasters?

The bastards.

Dude, reading is fundamental.

I'm saying that folks with Russian blood just like being depressed all the time.

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

This is Russian humor, no?

Paleocon wrote:
Funkenpants wrote:

I find it interesting that there seems to be an exact match between happiness levels and number of rollercoasters. We're kicking your asses in rollercoasters and happiness, you miserable russki bastards.

I wonder how much of that is genetic and cultural though. I know a number of Russian Americans who have been here for generations. ALL of them suffer from stereotypical levels of Slavic Pessimism.

Well, Russians aren't the only Slavs and it's definitely a Russian trait. I don't want to sound like a xenophobe, but from my experience it really is. In places like Bohemia, Poland or Hungary years of Soviet rule took a toll by leaving some marks in minds of older generations, but it came and gone. At the bottom of our heads we pretty much knew we had to endure and wait them out.
But for Russians it wasn't like that. It's a damage that won't go away for generations and I really feel for them. And it wasn't only eight decades of living in system that destroyed you. We (Poles, Czechs) could endure because we had a rich, rich tradition of democration, liberalism and self-governing: from Hussitism through Polish 'democracy of nobles' to Hungarian Revolution of 1848. (From our perspective) Russians never shared such traditions, for them it always was about living under hard rule of Tsar. Therefore being governed, as opposed to governing oneself, is deeply rooted in Russian soul. Sure, it's a simplification and I mean no disrespect to Russian people, but after all let's face it: that's how the system that looked to exploit and destroy took such a terrible toll in psyche of Russian people. They're not just pessimistic. They're damaged in the ways that Americans probably can't even hope to understand.

Sorry for making this discussion serious ;] It's just a very very interesting subject, and for me it's much more important than prices of gas and photos of half-naked Putin that we usually like to discuss here.

edit: minor corrections; my English is full of fail;

Russians aren't depressed per se, they're fatalists. There's a big difference.

Paleocon wrote:

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

Amazing

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Russians aren't depressed per se, they're fatalists. There's a big difference.

I'd say both, but you've got a point there. It also makes more sense in context of what I've been saying. It's not like weather gets them down or they don't like to have a good laugh and enjoy life, what kind of stupid point that would be. There's something bigger behind that.

Paleocon wrote:

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

This is Russian humor, no?

That's fantastic.

I think the Russian sense of fatalism is an interesting juxtaposition to the German tendency toward nihilism. Americans used to be noted for naive optimism, but I think we're replacing that with bitter cynicism.

Paleocon wrote:

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

This is Russian humor, no?

Russian-Jewish, to be precise. I would bet that your friend is more Jew than a Slav, and as such has a strong predilection to kvetching.

A Russian-Russian's response would be "excellent, but will there be enough vodka?".

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

This is Russian humor, no?

Russian-Jewish, to be precise. I would bet that your friend is more Jew than a Slav, and as such has a strong predilection to kvetching.

A Russian-Russian's response would be "excellent, but will there be enough vodka?".

Actually, no. With a name like Constantine, I suspect he isn't Jewish.

Paleocon wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I figured it was something like that. I once joked to my friend Constantine that he could find something depressing about a weekend with a hotel room full of willing naked supermodels and a bottle of viagra. Without missing a beat, he said "My stupid wife would probably forget the camera".

This is Russian humor, no?

Russian-Jewish, to be precise. I would bet that your friend is more Jew than a Slav, and as such has a strong predilection to kvetching.

A Russian-Russian's response would be "excellent, but will there be enough vodka?".

Actually, no. With a name like Constantine, I suspect he isn't Jewish.

First name doesn't mean much. It's not like it has to be Daniel or David. Very often Soviet Jewish parents would give their children traditional "Russian" (read: Slav/Greek/Roman/Norse) names -- whether out of desire to help them fit in, or for no particular reason at all.

I just recently attended a Yom Kippur party at a house of my friend whose name is Vladimir.

Here's something that I think needs to be added to what UCRC said. Unlike most other countries in Central Europe, Russians never knew private property, the responsibility that comes with it and taking care of it. The land and the owner's rights to it belonged to tsar, he was the supreme ruler, he could take or give land at a whim. Hence the way to amass property was not through entrepreneurship, but rather through close ties with ruling power. This slowly started to change only in the late 19th century with abolishing of serfdom, at the same time when the industrialization of Russia began. Before it could change the ways people were thinking, it was 1917, power to the people, Lenin forever etc. UCRC is quite correct to point out that Russia didn't have an old "democracy" to fall back on, it was simply never there. Even Ukraine is different, it used to be a prosperous self-sufficient country before it was incorporated into Russia.

That one way to oversimplify things. While it's true that Russia has long traditions of totalitarian spacecraft, the Europe usually tends to forget that Russia served as its buffer and a bulwark against the Mongol Horde for good 3 centuries, while the Europeans were cultivating their traditions of democracy.

As many historians would point out, Ukraine didn't existing as a sovereign entity until it split from the Soviet Union. At various stages, it was a part of Russian heartland (Kievan Russia, the capital of Russian Tzars), or a vassal of Poland, Russia, Livonia etc... With Turkey vying for a piece as well.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

totalitarian spacecraft

O_O

Was that... perhaps... meant to be totalitarian statecraft? Totalian spacecraft sounds more like something from an Iain Banks novel.

I'm definitely simplifying, Gorilla, but not by much. When I'd read Orlando Figes' People's Tragedy - history of Russian revolutions - it spent a lot of time explaining the power and ownership structures in Tsarist Russia and I felt that it is reflected in Russian way of governing things even now. The fatalism that you so rightly pointed out is just an extrapolation of the fact that the Russians never had a clear and protected hold of their property. Their fate was thus always decided by someone else. Tsar giveth and Tsar taketh away, if you will.

By the way, I fully recommend that book, it explains a lot about "Russian soul". Figes is clearly fascinated by Russia, used original Russian sources and talked to a lot of people. If you are interested, check out his project The Whisperers, interviews on private lives during Stalin's regime. A lot of it is accessible on his website.

Come now. The Mongols were not so bad. As long as you paid your taxes and didn't challenge the authority of the Khan, they pretty well left you alone. It's not like they were the French or Spanish. Now those were some really nasty genocidal asshats.