9/11 Smack Talk

I thought it would be appropriate to separate out the thread where people could post their comments or reflections on 9/11 from this thread, where a (likely heated) debate on the issues surounding 9/11 could take place. I think some back-and-forth is warranted, but don't want to overpower the legitimate musings of those who want to share, but have no desire to take place in an argument.

I really just couldn't let this go by:

Farscry wrote:

And that, I must say, is a greater act of terror than that which killed them.

I have to say, I see this sentiment a lot. Pyro mirrored this thought when he said:

Pyroman[FO wrote:

"]those acts [by the US government] have done more to destroy American freedom than the terrorists ever thought possible

I always love bold statements about great acts of terror and the destruction of American freedom, which use absolutely no specific examples to back themselves up. How about letting us know what you're talking about?

Farscry wrote:

The "Patriot Act", the "Office of Homeland Security", violating the principles behind the very Constitution upon which our nation was founded in order to hold "enemy combatants" with no regard to their rights as citizens or international POW procedures that we helped establish.

Theexistenceof a law or department doesn't violate any civil liberties. So how about providing a specific case where the Patriot Act has "destroyed American freedom" or violated the principles of the Constitution. Give me a name, a set of charges, and explain why they are unjust or how they violate the bill of rights.

As far as the outcry over enemy combatants, the Geneva Convention requires that belligerents:

* have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;

* carry arms openly; and

* conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

I don't think our friends at Guantanamo qualify - looks liketheychose illegal combatant designation, not us. And yet we are still treating them in accordance with the basic provisions of Geneva. No problem here.

Then there are those complaining that we have detained citizens as enemy combatants. I don't know the specific allegations you are making. Given that all three branches of government have supported this (which applies to exactly 2 people), why is this a problem?

Farscry wrote:

I cannot count the 376 soldiers lost in the "War on Terror" in the same way that that I do the ~3,000 civilians who died on September 11, 2001.

Look, for those of you who cannot connect terrorist groups who want to kill us and drive us from the Middle East with rogue states who support terror, celebrate the murder of Americans, and want to drive us from the Middle East - I won't waste anymore time trying to convince you. We can agree to disagree.

But comments like this:

Farscry wrote:

is a pity that our own leaders have besmirched the memories of those who died in this tragedy through making acts of terror of another sort against our nation

The actions of our leaders are an insult to their memory

those very memories are being spat upon by our nation's actions

are incredibly insulting to some of us - and strike me as ignorant of reality as well. If the government's reation to 9/11 was so evil, what would you rather they have done?

I don''t think this comment is quite on subject, but I didn''t know where to put it otherwise.

Ral, while reading your message, I noticed your sig:

We will never forget the servants of evil who plotted the attacks. And we will never forget those who rejoiced at our grief and our mourning. - George W. Bush, 9/10/2003

I remember hearing this yesterday in a news blurb, and my reaction was kind of seeing this as a veiled reference to the Palestinians, (among others of course) given the current state of the roadmap to peace in Israel?

Anyone else hear it similarly, or are my insights up an odd creek?

I''m sure we all remember the footage aired of people dancing in the streets, celebrating the dastardly attacks on the WTC...

I don''t know how directly this was a reference to the Palestinians - no one in the administration has suggested to my knowledge that we are anywhere near ready to put the Palestinians on notice of any sort - though they certainly deserve such notice.

It was Newt Gingrich who came on TV after the footage of the rejoicing Palestinians and said that they really weren''t to blame, because they had been raised in a culture of hate.

It''s funny. We accept behavior from groups and countries that we would never countenance in individuals. If your wife was raped and an acquaintance was making jokes about it, you''d punch the guy in the face and cut him out of your life - not spend time and money trying to understand why he was acting that way. But in statecraft, we are expected to be understanding of ""why they hate us"". Well, I can agree to a point - but changing the conditions of the region may be the only way to rehabilitate attitudes in the Middle East. And in the meantime, there are large numbers of people who may not be able to be redeemed.

By the way, if you want to read an almost prescient view of things to come written a couple of weeks after 9/11:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-gingrich092801.shtml

Newt for President!

I''m sure we all remember the footage aired of people dancing in the streets

I would be very careful with citing that footage. It is still not clear whether these people were celebrating something else or even were paid/motivated to dance in the streets or if they were really celebrating the horror that was 9/11.
It was the same scene with the same 6 people over and over again.

By the way, if you want to read an almost prescient view of things to come written a couple of weeks after 9/11:
http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...

Newt for President!

Oh come on, that nutball is so unimportant for anything I don''t know why he is always given a platform for spreading his stupid ideas and arguments.

It was the same scene with the same 6 people over and over again.

Not the scenes I saw.

"chrisg" wrote:
I''m sure we all remember the footage aired of people dancing in the streets

I would be very careful with citing that footage. It is still not clear whether these people were celebrating something else or even were paid/motivated to dance in the streets or if they were really celebrating the horror that was 9/11.
It was the same scene with the same 6 people over and over again.

That was proven to be false. It wasn''t the same six people. I''ll get a link after my next meeting.

So, people cheering for Saddam Hussein are payed/coerced/threatened into doing it, but people cheering for the 9-11 attacks do it of their own free will?

I still fail to see what Iraq or Saddam Hussein have to do with 9/11.

you mean this women and the ones in the back cheering, right?

http://www.arbeiterfotografie.com/ga...

this was faked.

EDIT: wrong link

It was the same scene with the same 6 people over and over again.

What are you smoking? There were celebrations for days with thousands of Palestinians involved.

I guess I shouldn''t be surprised that you think this. Arafat and the PLO suppressed as much as they could, including by assaulting journalists and confiscating footage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=article&articleid=A38351-2001Sep15&node=nation/specials/attacked/archive

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20010913/3627513s.htm

Of course, Arafat has convinced people he isn''t a terrorist, so what''s a little more revisionist history..?

What are you smoking? There were celebrations for days with thousands of Palestinians involved.

if not millions. Look what I was referring to was that scene of cheering palesintians in the streets that wineglass remembered. There were investigations here by Der Spiegel and other trustful magazines and the outcome was that this scene was indeed staged.
Learn german, pay 40 cents and read the article if you do not believe me:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...

Of course, Arafat has convinced people he isn''t a terrorist, so what''s a little more revisionist history..?

You know I really don''t let much get to me when it comes to internet discussions, but calling me a revisionist is quite beyond what I am willing to take in order to keep up a reasonable discussion. I''m outta here.

Regarding 9/11: It was a horrinble event, and I fully understand the desire to commemorate the victims, but the phrase ""9/11 never forget!"" has been bandied about and abused so much by politicians that whenever I hear it, all I feel is disgust. And hearing about stuff like this:

"irc conversation" wrote:

<someone> I''ve got to get away from the TV
<someone> aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<someone> children, reading the 3,000 names
<someone> the tape, over and over
<someone> NO

doesn''t exactly make my heart overflow with sympathy either. It''s a pity 911 NEVAR FORGET the trademark has managed to overshadow 9/11 the tragedy for me, but what can you do, eh?

Good thinking* to start this thread ral, I refrained from posting this in the other thread on account of not being quite that much of an asshole.

[size=9]*mirrored my own (wonder apparently do never cease :wink:) but I decided to wait for someone else to do it, since I''m eurothrash scum and all.[/size]

Look, I''m posting in this thread to defend myself instead of the other because despite how some of you found me ""offensive"", I really mean no dishonor to the victims of the World Trade Center disaster.

I am simply tired of politicians on BOTH PARTIES using this tragedy as a means of forwarding their own agendas. I am tired of our government using this as an excuse to keep taking away our freedoms and privacy, and bombing the hell out of scapegoats so they can look good and decisive.

I''m also not going to bother rebutting Ralcydan taking my quotes selectively out of context, which in my opinion is enough to invalidate your own arguments against me.

JohnnyMoJo, I can understand how you may find my thoughts offensive, but I reserve the right to find it terrible and offensive to use this tragedy as an excuse for all kinds of hypocritical actions by the very nation that they died for.

And I am TOTALLY F*CKING SICK of people thinking that just because some of us want to exercise our rights as citizens and try to IMPROVE this nation, that we should just get a ticket out of here.

So are you saying, if you don''t like it, leave? My pardon, I thought this was supposed to be a DEMOCRACY, where if you don''t like it, try to give an honest effort to change it. Then, if that doesn''t work, either live with it or leave.

I guess you''d rather any dissidents simply skip the whole step of trying to voice their objections. That''s been the biggest change since 9/11. No longer is this a land of the free, but a land of the ""shut the %#!$ up if you don''t agree with our leaders"". Yup, bend over and take the liberty torch up your bum, America.

Why don''t I leave? At this point, if it weren''t for the family and friends that I''m not willing to abandon, frankly I WOULD leave. But I can''t abandon those I love to a nation that''s changing the way ours is.

I love what the United States used to be about. I AM a patriot, contrary to what I might be labelled as. I''m not a sheep, however, and I resent the sentiment that I should be.

Again, note that I left it with my one original comment in the 9/11 thread: I meant that as an honor to their memories, and that is why I have refrained from commenting in there again.

--
I guess, too, that as a final note, this will be my last post in the political forum. I get too worked up about all this, especially with the overwhelming sentiment that I should shut up if I''m not in the majority. Despite that, though, I do like how intelligent most everyone is in here (yes, Ralcydan, I may not agree with you, but I respect that you are smart and work at fleshing out your arguments), and have enjoyed arguing with people who can formulate arguments with more depth than ""ug u rong dumb-dumb"".

But in the hopes of not creating more bad blood here, since I really like Gamers With Jobs, I plan to restrict myself to the other two forums. At least until I learn to not let things get under my skin too much!

I think the US media just managed to turn this horrible event into a ratings boon. ""The terrorists have won"" and other such bullsh*t...

Worst thing is what Farscry says. Politicians just taking advantage of the event to further their agendas. And the average american reply to anyone who questions...
""WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH?"".

It seems to me that those who want to preserve the spirit of your constitution (which is I think, a damn good one) are the ones being shut up the most.

And another thing that I noticed... I was surprised at how quickly the sympathy that the whole world had for the US right after the event, turned into... I wouldn''t call it ""hate"", but... scorn, maybe? In just a few months.

Still waiting for Osama...

It is important to focus on the reality, not the made for TV special that 9/11 has been transformed into by corporate media.

Never forget who attacked America. Religious fanatics who hate everything our constitutional republic stands for; freedom of speech, of religion, of choice and at it's core freedom of thought. Vow to think for yourself and never to bow down to any ayatollah whether they reside in Tehran, Kabul, or Lynchburg.

Osama has no navy, he has no million man army, he does not have ten thousand nuclear weapons, and this is not world war 3. America is can not be defeated unless we surrender to ourselves and let scumbag politicians, who would use the murder of three thousand Americans for their own twisted ends, have free reign.

chrisg, when I said ""images"", I was speaking in a more abstract sense rather than pointing to one specific photo.

Just wanted to clear that up

Farscry,

I was not concerned with the fact that you have problems with people advancing political agendas, as much as the statement that it was worse than the 9/11 attack. I thought it lacked any sort of perspective and was disrespectful to those that lost their lives and have fought since then.

As to the assertion that politicians have advanced their agendas since then, I don''t disagree. But I don''t think it is a malicious planned activity. I don''t actually think that Ashcroft wants to personally be able to listen to your conversations...he and the rest of the administration just feels that they need the additional power to protect us.

My biggest problem is that we cripple ourselves with political correctness. We have to resort to things like the PATRIOT act because the correct options are closed to us.

We know who the attackers are. And yet we can''t single people meeting that description out for screening because it is ''profiling''. Profiling is singling out a group for investigation, and it is wrong when the potential crime might have been committed by someone else. Yes, some blacks steal cars. But not all cars stolen were stolen by blacks. Therefore assuming all blacks might be car thiefs is wrong. But all of the terrorists are, in fact, men of a certain age and ethnic group. Hmm. In that case, I think a little more scrutiny might be called for. But we have to continue this charade of screening 90-year-olds with walkers or the ACLU might get mad.

We need to close our borders. We need to have a greater level of control over who we allow in and how long they stay. We need to kick out ALL of the illegals, not give them driver''s licenses or amnesty. But we can''t, or the left cries out that we are persecuting minorities.

There are many things that we should do, but we can''t because it might offend someone. The Founders established our government the way they did so the politicians could make the hard decisions needed to shape and protect the country free from the pressures and whims of the electorate. But the rise of the modern media makes every move accessible to anyone and forces politicians to pander to every special interest group that yells.

The PATRIOT act might not be the best way to proceed, but it is the best way left to us because the freedoms it takes are less valuable to most people than not being offended.

Since when does ""the left crying out"" about anything stop something from happening? Republicans control all three branches of the US government, yet somehow you can''t accomplish what you want because some pc leftists are holding you back?

Place the blame on the spineless people you elect to office, and not some mythical idea that the left wants to destroy America with political correctness.

Republicans control all three branches of the US government, yet somehow you can''t accomplish what you want because some pc leftists are holding you back?

Yeah, pretty much. Much like the fact that Federal judge''s are fillibustered in the Senate, the things that need to be done can''t because of the very vocal left.

Place the blame on the spineless people you elect to office, and not some mythical idea that the left wants to destroy America with political correctness.

Oh, I don''t think they want to destroy America. I think that will be the ultimate result if sanity isn''t restored and we face up to the hard decisions that have to be made though.