In Which We Learn New Things About Russia

I don't think any of us are that dumb, UCRC.

Russia's really starting to get scary again. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the US is any less scary, anymore.

Malor wrote:

I don't think any of us are that dumb, UCRC.

Russia's really starting to get scary again. Unfortunately, I'm not sure the US is any less scary, anymore.

Which is why I live in neither. =)

Also, since this is the Russian thread, how weird and James Bond-ish was the whole thing about that cargo ship that went missing (as referenced in the 'sensitive cargo' link in UCRC's post? What the hell was Russia doing? It was so shady.

Man, I would LOVE to know what the real story was there. What a weird, weird thing that was. Just strange top to bottom.

Something obviously got very badly botched.

Who Was Responsible For WWII?

It is a debate that has raged in European capitals ahead of the 70th anniversary on Tuesday of the beginning of the second world war on 1 September 1939. Who, apart from Hitler, was actually responsible for starting it?

This summer the Baltic states have blamed Hitler and Stalin equally. Russia, meanwhile, is fingering Poland.

Ultimately, however, the row which threatens to eclipse a gathering on Tuesday of European leaders in Gdansk is not about history or the past. It is all about the present, specifically Russia's claim of having "privileged interests" in its post-Soviet neighbours. Russia's president, Dmitry Medvedev, made his own explosive contribution to the debate, saying it was a "flat-out lie" to suggest that Stalin bore any responsibility for starting the second world war, which he described as "the 20th century's greatest catastrophe". According to Medvedev, it was Stalin who in fact "ultimately saved Europe".

In an interview with Rossiya TV earlier today, Medvedev let rip at the EU Baltic states and Ukraine, accusing them of rewriting history, glorifying fascism, and obscuring the Soviet Union's unique leading role in the liberation of Europe. He also blasted the EU and its Organisation for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE), which, in July, passed a resolution equating Stalinism with Nazism.

"The OSCE parliamentary assembly just recently grouped together Germany and the Soviet Union, pronouncing them to be equally responsible for world war two," Medvedev said. "Now that, quite frankly, is a flat-out lie."

Medvedev recognised that there could be "different attitudes" toward the Soviet Union. But he alleged that there could be no debate at all over "who started the war, which country killed people, and which country saved people, millions of people, and which country, ultimately, saved Europe".

So WWII was UC's fault. Got it.

Ah, yes. WWII. We totaly did.

What's really shocking in all of this, is how weak-ass sh*t they use. Three most prominent pieces of evidence consist of:
1) Pact of non-agression between Poland and Germany from 1934. (In 'Who started WWII' documentary that Russian TV has aired few days ago they actually showed original document with Polish and German signatures saying "A-HA! They had AN AGREEMENT!". They didn't bother to mention what were contents of this documents.)

Oh, they forgot that we had non-agression pact with them too, signed two years earlier.

2) A RUMOUR (yes, a rumour) that Polish foreign minister Józef Beck was an German agent. Even better, that rumour was forged by... French intelligence before WWII. (Beck was responsible for a bit cold relationships between French and Poles, so they've tried to undermine his position.)
In fact he was a sworn enemy of Hitler. In his famous pre-war refusal to comply to Hitler's ultimatum he said one of most memorable Polish quotes:

Peace is a precious and a desirable thing. Our generation, bloodied in wars, certainly deserves peace. But peace, like almost all things of this world, has its price, a high but a measurable one. We in Poland do not know the concept of peace at any price. There is only one thing in the lives of men, nations and countries that is without price. That thing is honor.

3) Cooperation with Germans to dismantle Czechoslovakia.
Not true. Czechoslovakian-German conflict and conflict with Poland over small border region were two different things. No one in Poland even considered any form of cooperation with Germans on this. In 1938 major political figures in Poland decided that they simply had to act to reclaim what they believed was ours* before Hitler comes and annex whole Czechoslovakia.
(*most of population of captured region were Poles AFAIK)

And so far that's it. A non-agression pact, a false rumour and a fact that Poles were in conflict with Czechoslovakia are supposed to be the decisive proof that we were plotting with Hitler.

Damn warmongering Polish.

Prederick wrote:
Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Oh, by the way, I am going to Moscow in 2 weeks.

I meant to ask, a while ago, how the trip was. Obviously, i'm two months late in asking because i'm a horrible person.

Oh, thanks! And you're a wonderful person, as far as I know you! The trip went great. Depending where I've been, the place would be either a combination of Overgrown and Bombed Out maps from CoD4, or Champs D'Elysees in Paris.

In lieu of an obligatory St.Basil cathedral shot on the Red Square in Moscow, here's one from Petergof summer palace in St.Petersburg:

IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/3728559650_7f01af9538.jpg)

IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/3728559460_fe15764215.jpg)

Here's me in Moscow with my borther on the left; he's a colonel in Russians' version of DEA (edit: Google translator goes into indefinite loop on that link, for some reason). The monument in the back is to a famous Russian poet/writer Alexander Pushkin. One of the places were I made a pilgrimage to on my brief trip.

IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2517/3728559052_533c66bd56.jpg)

And finally, why, here's a mobile ICMB Topol M. As some would like it, coming soon to a metropolis near you, so to say. Photographed on the grounds of the Artillery Museum in St.Petersburg.

IMAGE(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2565/3728561258_73a2155e0c.jpg)

What's the scale on that last picture? Looks like about the size of a US semi trailer truck?

Malor wrote:

What's the scale on that last picture? Looks like about the size of a US semi trailer truck?

It's just a bit wider, the driver cabin is about as tall, but the whole chassis is longer by quite a bit. Besides the missile truck, there is another unit in the complex on a similar chassis -- communication & control/guidance. One such unit can manage several missiles. In previous version (vanilla Topol, not "M", which stands for "modernized") there was not one but two additional vehicles. The word Topol itself, by the way, means "poplar" in Russian, and in Slav nature-worshipping canon is used for associations with something slender and elegant.

The much-hoped-for but ill-performing submarine version Bulava , by the way, is basically the same missile, only with updated electronics and smaller 2nd stage. Russian Navy, continuing a century-long trend of not being worth @#$, hasn't been able to test-launch even one of them successfully.

Here's a "me and my Topol" shot I took first. Might help to convey the dimensions. Unfortunately, I didn't make a closer one. There are a few other rocket artillery/AA pieces in my "Trip to Russia" set on Flickr, though (link in the sig).

UCRC, wasn't Poland taken in a day by the Germans? Or was that Belgium or something?

Because if it was Poland, it wouldn't matter if you started the war: you didn't exactly do well out of it now, did you?

I think the whole idea of 'who was responsible for WWII APART from Hitler' is a ridiculous one - who cares? (Well, the Baltic states apparently...)

Putin blames the Munich Treaty.

Somewhat tangetal to the thread, but this is one of those stories that my brain couldn't parse without a second cup of coffee: Stalin's grandson sues to clear Stalin over killings.

Josef Stalin was in the dock on Monday when a Russian court held a preliminary hearing in a libel case brought by his grandson over a newspaper story which said the tyrant had ordered the killings of Soviet citizens...."Half a century of lies have been poured over Stalin's reputation and he cannot defend himself from the grave so this case is essential to put the record straight," said Zhura.

"We want to rehabilitate Stalin," he told Reuters. "He turned populations into peoples, he presided over a golden era in literature and the arts, he was a real leader."

VDOWhoNeedsDD wrote:

UCRC, wasn't Poland taken in a day by the Germans?

You serious? We've been fighting until early days of October, invaded by both Germans and Soviets. For comparison, France, which was preparing for that war since 20s and had whole Maginot line and 8 months to prepare for German invasion, lasted a week longer than us.
After September, Polish resistance movement was by far the largest in whole Europe.
AFAIK in all allied operations Poles were the fourth force, right after Russian , US and British troops. They've fighted in Battle of Britain, at Tobruk, in Italy and from France to Germany. They've fight for all allies, for their soil and their causes while no one decided to put up a fight for us.
Next to Germany and Russia Poland had the greatest civil and soldier casualties in Europe. Compare: while less than 1% (450k) UK citizens were killed in WWII, casualties among Polish citizens are estimated to be between 14% and 16%, totalling over 5 000 000 people.
Not to mention that WWII was the exact reason why we got stuck in communist system 'till 1989, after Roosevelt and Churchill gave up on us in Jalta.

So, yeah, you can probably imagine WHY we care, right?

----------------
@Sonicator
Oh, you've just linked to something I wanted to. In an open letter to Polish press Putin described Ribbentrop-Molotov pact as 'immoral'.
Generally, letter was kept in suprisingly emphatic tone:

Yet Putin also struck a conciliatory note with Poland – a former Soviet satellite-turned European Union member – saying that the grief caused by the 1940 murder of more than 20,000 Polish prisoners of war by the Soviet NKVD struck a cord with the average Soviet citizen, who also suffered under totalitarianism.
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"To the people of Russia, whose fate has been deformed by a totalitarian regime, the sensitivity of Poles over Katyn, where thousands of Polish soldiers lie, is well understood," Putin wrote in what appeared to be an unusually strong criticism of the Soviet government from him.

My cynical side thinks that he's just sweet-talking because of the economic talks apparently happening between Russia and Poland soon, but you never know...

Fun trivia - the volume of the trade between Russian Federation and Poland is equal to that between Russia and whole US of A. $36B, if I recall it right.

Why Russia would cast aspersions on subject of Poland's role in WWII is a total mystery. Especially given the fact that the idea of Easter Europe missile shield is practically dead now, and there is no axe for Russians to grind with Poles.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Why Russia would cast aspersions on subject of Poland's role in WWII is a total mystery. Especially given the fact that the idea of Easter Europe missile shield is practically dead now, and there is no axe for Russians to grind with Poles.

Well, I don't even think that Poland is side in this. All those revelations about WWII are aimed at Russian people. Also, they like to show the rest of Europe they can, and will, have their votum separatum in these matters. Well, that's how they roll.

And as for trade - we're all so used to these things that I doubt that these aspersions will cast any shadow whatsoever on the trade talks. Current Polish gov is pretty much Realpolitik-ish in these matters.

Thanks UCRC! I have no idea who I'm thinking of...product of the British and American school systems, me =P

I'm back from vacation and surprised to see that no one followed that story more closely: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/82...
I read a follow-up on that a few days ago in Polish press and it looks increasingly alike that Russia was transporting some 'sensitive materials' onboard that ship.

First, they've had an unscheduled stop in Kaliningrad** to do 'ship repairs' overnight.
Second, as soon as ship went missing they've managed to track it down and chase in matter of days, which is unheard of in normal cases of cargo ships going missing, sailors say.
Third, every member of crew was made to sign a contract that prevents them from speaking about these events to anyone.
Fourth, journalist and editor 'Sea Bulletin'* who has claimed that there were weapons onboard that ship had to escape from Moscow. He resurfaced in Istambul claiming that there have been threats on his life and he doesn't feel safe in Turkey. Then he has disappeared again.

*I might have got name wrong because I'm citing it all from memory.
**(Königsberg) It's in that small Russian enclave that borders with Poland and has access to Baltic sea.

Plus, it seems that Israel`s prime minister was in secret visit to Moscow day after it was announced that ship is hijacked. There`s some kind of stink in Israeli press about him laying about his whereabouts during the visit.
There`s a version that whole incident was provoked by Mossad, since Isreal knew that arms were smuggled to Arabs with the ship so they manipulated some gang of dumb shmucks to hijack it.
They definitely dont seem to be environmentalists as they claim judging by some of the details about them from local press. Most of them seem to be undereducated dumbasses, some with priors.

Well, as Most said, it seems that Israelis hijacked the Arctic Sea (the vessel, I mean), because it carried Russian missiles ("It's just timber, honest!") to Iran. Funny things.

Tangentially interesting stuff: Slovakia (my country) has a dispute with Ukraine regarding an X-ray train scanner used on the border (Ukrainian-Slovak border is one of the entry points to the Schengen area, hence the security precautions). Official Ukrainian stance says that the X-rays make train drivers sick and it has to be turned off at once (and it actually was for a while, resulting in manual searches of the cargo, huge delays of shipments for steelworks etc.). The unofficial reason is most probably smuggling of goods and, most importantly, people to the Schengen area in the cargo trains. Why the Ukrainian officials are backing such a cause is beyond me though.

Strange. Haven't heard of similar cases on Polish-Ukrainian border. Maybe they're doing most of trafficking through Slovakia. (Or maybe we've never bothered to use any X-ray scanners ;])
BTW: How's whole Slovakia vs. Hungary thing doing and who's to blame for all of this, from your Slovakian viewpoint?

(Unrelated: I FINALLY got to play Secret of Monkey Island [remake version, because original never wanted to work on my XP, not sure why] and now I can appreciate your signature. ;])

UCRC wrote:

How's whole Slovakia vs. Hungary thing doing and who's to blame for all of this, from your Slovakian viewpoint?

I don't want to derail this, so I'll keep it short: this is basically all a political ruse, on both sides. The Hungarian economy is in an unrecoverable slump for a long time now and we are heading the same way quite fast. So you basically give people another issue to worry about - national clashes. In Bratislava, where I live, there's a lot of Hungarian people and nobody has a problem with that, I'd say it's the same on the other side of the border. In fact, the head of the Nationalist Party had a press conference about the "dangers to Slovak sovereignty". When someone asked him why his ministers steal so much (and they do, we have published proofs of at least two major scandals in our magazine), he immediately went on tirade how inappropriate such question is when the very sovereignty of Slovakia is at stake". Something similar happens in Hungary - it's really an issue created by politicians.

To put the thread back on rails, according to Committee to Protect Journalists, journalism is a pretty dangerous job in Russia. Of 17 dead journalists since 2000, three were killed in a crossfire during conflicts, the rest was assassinated. Of that only one assassination has led to conviction of the murderers (but not the real masterminds), the rest remains unpunished.

In other news: missile shield deployments in Czech Republic & Poland are officially dead.

Does this mean we can put men back at Observation Post Alpha again? And which Hex-based wargame will we be using to prepare?

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

In other news: missile shield deployments in Czech Republic & Poland are officially dead.

Thank Christ. America has no right to put that rubbish there. Unnecessary provocation.

Prederick wrote:

Does this mean we can put men back at Observation Post Alpha again? And which Hex-based wargame will we be using to prepare?

No, this pretty much says that Miedviediev will have much more to say in process of picking sites for and supervising of shield but other than that I doubt much will change.

And their doomsday machine still works, too. Mr. President, we must not allow a mineshaft gap!

Rat Boy wrote:

And their doomsday machine still works, too. Mr. President, we must not allow a mineshaft gap!

I didn't realise that Dr Strangelove was based on reality to that extent...is that stuff common knowledge?

VDOWhoNeedsDD wrote:
Rat Boy wrote:

And their doomsday machine still works, too. Mr. President, we must not allow a mineshaft gap!

I didn't realise that Dr Strangelove was based on reality to that extent...is that stuff common knowledge?

Actually, from the way they describe it in the article, Perimeter sounds more like a forerunner to Skynet...or WOPR.

Lots of Russia news today!

Resisting Sanctions on Iran

Gas Deals With China

Rigged Polls? Well, we know Putin's United Russia party pretty much crushed it.

And let's talk about Gas Pipelines and politics!

Wasn't part of the point of dismantling the Polish missile defense system to appease Russia into backing Iranian sanctions? It seems pretty clear that Russia and China are trying to get as much out of Obama's appeasement campaign without returning any favors.