More than an apology

Some of my friends and I (a mixed crowd) recently had a discussion about slavery, the Jim Crow Laws and the affects it has in American society today. Together we brought up many of the of the talking points that are written here, specifically the point about how education is funded amongst other things.

Personally speaking, I think this is an excellent article no matter what side of the black and white, or blue and gray color spectrum, many folks in America identify themselves with. In the end it should all be about love for each other and our country.

Article from CNN

So what exactly is the author asking for in this article other than an apology? The closest guess I could make was more federal funding for schools in poor neighborhoods and for everyone to love each other?

I really dont like joining in on conversations like this but when this whole thing came about the other day in the media I really started thinking about it.

So, I am 2nd generation American. Both my grandparents for both my mother and father came to America in the 20's from Sicily. When I was a kid, every conversation always mentioned "The Boat" (meaning when they came here as immigrants).

On my father's side, my grandfather was a tradesman who actually was from a long line of tradesmen. Dont ask me what trade, I dont know but it had something to do with the wineries back in Italy. He didnt own the wineries, he worked IN them. My grandmother was a housewife.

On my mother's side, my grandfather was a farmer who owned a very small farm in which only the family worked on. It eventually got swallowed up by some magistrate or some such and that's when he took his family and migrated here to the States. My grandmother again, was a housewife.

Both families moved to Cicero, Illinois. Back then, it was not the dump that it apparently is today.

Anyway... as far as I know, as far back as I can go in my family history, nobody owned, traded, dealt with or made a profit of any kind or form with regards to slavery.

I abhor the idea of slavery of any kind. I cannot relate, understand or even begin to comprehend what generations had to deal with when it comes to the things they endured as a race. I do my best to live as open minded as possible. I fail but as far as I can tell I try to be honorable in my ideals, my thoughts and my actions. And I most definitely treat people with respect up until the point they prove to me they don't deserve it, regardless of color, race, height, weight, sex, smell...

So, with all this, if you looked at me you would probably label me as a "White Boy". Does that mean, simply because of the color of my skin, that I have to apologize and/or offer some kind of concession for being white because white people enslaved other races back "in the day"?

I really dont want to get into any kind of argument or flame session as I am genuinely interested in what people think about this. Am I sorry for what happened to those people? Absolutely... but I am sorry for what "happened" to those people because what happened was an anathema. I am "sorry" as I am to my friend who's mother just died a couple months ago. I most definitely didnt have anything to do w/ her death, but I am deeply sorry for his loss and her suffering.

I am "not" sorry because someone in my lineage caused those things... as far as I can tell, nobody in my immediate history had anything to do with it.

PAR

par wrote:

Does that mean, simply because of the color of my skin, that I have to apologize and/or offer some kind of concession for being white because white people enslaved other races back "in the day"?

It's an interesting question. On the most obvious level: no, of course you don't have to 'apologize or offer a concession'. Does anyone? Have you ever heard of, say, the descendant of a plantation owner offering a 'concession' for his ancestor's exploitation of slaves? What could that be? Who would you even offer it to?

And there's a bunch of other stuff wrapped up in what you're saying, but I think I'm maybe a little too tired/tipsy to address it now. But personally, I don't believe in some sort of bloodline taint passed down from generation to generation. If my great-grandfather did something terrible, that's on him, not on me. If me being white is at all problematic, it's because I'm getting advantages from my whiteness right now--whether my direct ancestors had slaves or not has nothing to do with it.

Actually, Par, what you expressed seemed to me to be exactly the same as what the article did. She explicitly says she's not expecting people to individually apologize, but to simply express the same kind of regret that you feel in regard to your friend, for the unfairness of it all, and to move forward together without the separation we have today.

It is an extraordinary thing to win the racial, social, genetic, and/or financial lottery in this country. It is hard to think of another country in which doing so has as profound consequences. Conversely, it is a terrible thing to, by accident of birth, be denied all such advantages. Time and time again, studies have demonstrated that, despite our claims to being a meritocracy and having tremendous social mobility, the actual ability to move from class to class is extremely limited.

Considering this and considering that we have no control over the circumstances of our birth, it really only seems the right thing to do to try to maximize the opportunities for those less advantaged than us to rise above their circumstnaces and to provide them a basic social "floor" from which they can not fall beyond. I'm not at all saying that we should all be equal in our wealth. I am, however, saying that structural differences that perpetuate generational wealth and poverty are not just unfair, but seem, at least to me, very counterproductive for a country based on the idea that merit (and not birth) should triumph in the marketplace of ideas.

If the only opportunity for the greatest financial genius of our lifetime is to become a brutal drug lord, we have truly all lost as a nation.

To quote relevant parts of the article...

In regards to apologies

article wrote:

It now feels really natural to want to express regret -- not an apology (that's for institutions; Congress was right to step forward) but deep regret and sadness about what happened, fellow citizen to fellow citizen. I try to imagine what it would be like if we went so far as to extend tenderness toward each other. We could actually all use more of it when we're talking about race, racism and anything to do with slavery.

Instead, we are full of protestations, distrust, dismissiveness, resentments. For those of us who are white, what's the resistance really about? It may be, at core, that we don't want to feel guilty or blamed or responsible for the outrage of slavery. I didn't.

But here's the funny thing: While we white Americans are busy establishing our innocence, it turns out that many black Americans are not personally angry at us for slavery. Many do want authentic acknowledgement of what happened, but not for the sake of guilt-tripping. I've witnessed a generosity of spirit that I have been humbled by.

And about the some examples of action that should be taken, aside from "be tender with one another."

[quote=article]Meanwhile, many African-Americans are upset about the disparate outcomes that persist and want to see everyone step up to address them. There are so many lingering "structural inequalities," as President Obama put it -- ones without clear racist villains but that are embedded, like the fact that schools are funded with property taxes, so poor black neighborhoods, the legacy of earlier eras of discrimination, are not able to fund the quality schools that we say all our children deserve.

From the wealth gap to the health gap to the education gap, let's explore how the dots connect from the past to the present and commit to finding solutions that should be race-neutral at times and at other moments should be race-sensitive.

par wrote:

stuff

With all do respect Par, that's a very one dimensional view of the entire concept of race in this country. It's the default knee-jerk reaction that most white people take when the subject of slavery and racism is raised - I had nothing to do with it, it was long ago, I shouldn't have to apologize, let's all move on.

But what you and most white people fail to see is that it's not entirely about slavery - it's about the repercussions and ongoing inequality that are a result of slavery and the white supremacist framework this country was built on.

What you need to consider is when your parents came over here, what advantages did they receive because of their skin color that non-whites were not subject to?

For instance, I am first generation American on my mother's side and second generation on my father's side. When my paternal grandmother and grandfather came here from Europe, they were able to - after a few years of working and saving - buy a house. This was in mid 40's. How were they able to purchase a house so soon after coming here? In 1934, the National Housing Act - part of the Great Society (for white people) that helped the nation recover from the depression - offered FHA loans to (white) first-time homeowners. The act deliberately and explicitly "redlined" black neighborhoods and towns, meaning that FHA loans were not available in those areas. In short, the federal government and American banks embarked on forty years (these policies lasted through the 60's) of helping white Americans build wealth while making damn sure that black Americans couldn't. And in the process, they also made sure that black communities remained poor and "undesireable" because of a lack of local business ownership, a lack of community investment, and policies that ensured that only wealthy chain businesses could afford to operate in those neighborhoods. These racist FHA and VA loans of the 20th century as well as the GI Bill (blacks could die for their country but couldn't get a loan for their service) literally helped create the white middle class.

The result, as Tim Wise puts it:

Tim Wise wrote:

Indeed, the value of preferences to whites over the years is so enormous that the current baby-boomer generation of whites is currently in the process of inheriting between $7-10 trillion in assets from their parents and grandparents--property handed down by those who were able to accumulate assets at a time when people of color by and large couldn't.

This is why today, I stand to inherit a considerable amount of wealth from both my parents families. This is why my wife - who is black - will be lucky to inherit anything of value from her parents - who are descended from slaves - even though her family tree has roots which reveal that her lineage has been in this country over 200 years longer than my own family.

One of the biggest reasons racism has not been properly addressed and resolved is because whites either refuse to, are incapable of, or just don't care to understand the concept of white privilege and how just being white in this country has, for over 250 years, given whites unearned benefits based solely on the color of their skin.

Here's a great article by my man crush, Tim Wise, which quite plainly lists a series of examples - laws, policies, etc. - which are essentially "Affirmative Action for Whites".

I think once more whites begin to realize that it's not about apologizing - the average black person on the street isn't waiting for you to apologize to make everything better - it's about understanding white privilege, we'll be on our way.

So while you and your parents may not have partaken in slavery or intended racism, whether you choose to accept it or not, you've all had your hands in the cookie jar. All whites have.

FSeven wrote:

stuff as well...

You assume I do not understand the entire dynamics as to what all the repercussions were and still are in regards to racial differences in this country. My main question is, because of the color of my skin, should I be "sorry" different than I am and should I be required to "do something" more than what I am simply because I am white.

As for the things my parents and grandparents were able to do simply because they were white might have had something to do with... hard work? Without knowing exactly how they accomplished what they accomplished, you are now labeling and generalizing based on color and that is the whole crux of this entire conversation.

Yes, I am white, but I also do not come from any kind of money. My mother died of breast cancer with pretty much no savings left after fighting the disease and my father died of a heart attack while at work trying to make ends meat himself.

I had the chance for a full-ride scholarship to the University of Michigan a couple years out of high school because of my grades and extra curricular activities I was doing. I worked hard for that chance. Did I get it? No. Want to know why? Because I was white. That's EXACTLY what I was told.

So, instead of getting pissed and fighting the decision, I worked my @ss off and put myself through school a little later in life when I could actually do so. Its been 7 years since I graduated and I'm still paying my student loans. But as far as I can see, the system is screwed all the way around basically because of the color of one's skin.

PAR

FSeven wrote:

So while you and your parents may not have partaken in slavery or intended racism, whether you choose to accept it or not, you've all had your hands in the cookie jar. All whites have.

What about 1st generation white immigrants like myself?

P.S. BTW, do you ever venture up into North Jersey? We totally should meet up one day.

Time and time again, studies have demonstrated that, despite our claims to being a meritocracy and having tremendous social mobility, the actual ability to move from class to class is extremely limited.

are you sure about this? Most studies have shown that the United States is very mobile and that if you are poor now, in the future you ahve higher chances not to be.

I do come from a "strong" background. My father is a college President and my mother was (retired now) a professor. The norm is for everyone in my family to go to college, I grew up in a gated community in Northern California and had the ability to screw up and get back on track. But, my family wasn't even in the states until after world war 2, I'm second generation, I guess.

I'm not going to feel bad about the fact that I came from a background that allowed me to do well in life. I think we can make strides to help EVERYONE improve but having fake white guilt is just insulting to people who are suffering.

Well if you receive unearned privileges simply because you're white, don't you think - if you truly are interested in the concept of racial equality - you should do something? You surely don't pause when you receive your unearned white privileges so why pause when it's time to resist them?

You shouldn't be sorry. This is not about guilt. This is not about YOU. It's much bigger than you, me, or any individual. To reduce it to individualistic terms is irresponsible.

Should you feel guilty? No - you didn't do anything wrong (did you?).

Should you apologize? No - you didn't do anything wrong (did you?).

What should you do? Well, first off, when folks of color claim to experience racism, listen to them. They - as a matter of survival - have had to develop a keen sense of it, and trust that they are telling the truth.

Empathize. Don't sympathize - they don't want your pity. Rather, try to put yourself in their shoes and understand what they're talking about.

And the toughest of all - resist your unearned privileges.

par wrote:

As for the things my parents and grandparents were able to do simply because they were white might have had something to do with... hard work?

I don't doubt that your parents and grandparents worked hard but I can say with almost 100% certainty that they received benefits they did not earn simply because they were white. Do you at all, understand the concept that during the first half of the 20th century whites - this means your parents and grandparents - were able to accumulate assets and wealth while people of color largely were not able to? Did you even read the article I linked to?

As for your mother and father succumbing to diseases, I am truly sorry for your loss. But there is white privilege prevalent in their story as well. Surely they received much better treatment due to their color than if they were black. This point is incontestable. If anything, your experiences with your parents and how they virtually went bankrupt fighting their respective diseases should make you the biggest supporter of the currently proposed healthcare reform in this country. You could be the poster child for what's wrong with the system for Christs' sake.

As for your experiences with the University of Michigan, I suppose you're familiar with the case of Jennifer Gratz in 2003 - a white girl who sued the school. But do you REALLY know the subtle nuances about UofM's admissions policies?

As Wise again explains:

Wise wrote:

To wit, the President, and ultimately the Supreme Court, attacked Michigan's policy of awarding twenty points (on a 150-point evaluation scale) to undergraduate applicants who were members of underrepresented minorities, which at U of M means blacks, Latinos and American Indians. To many whites such a "preference" was blatantly discriminatory. Yet what Bush and the Court failed to mention were the greater numbers of points awarded for other things, and which had the clear effect of preferencing whites to the exclusion of people of color.

For example, Michigan awarded twenty points to any student from a low-income background, regardless of race. Since those points could not be combined with those for minority status (in other words poor blacks don't get forty points), in effect this was a preference for poor whites. Then Michigan awarded sixteen points to students from the Upper Peninsula of the state: a rural and almost completely white area.

Of course both preferences were fair, based as they were on the recognition that economic status and geography (as with race) can have a profound effect on the quality of schooling that one receives, and that no one should be punished for such things that are beyond their control. But note that such preferences, though disproportionately awarded to whites, remained uncriticized throughout the litigation on this case, while preferences for people of color become the target for reactionary anger. Once again, white preference remained hidden because it wasn't called white preference, even if that was the effect.

But that's not all. Ten points were awarded under the Michigan plan to students who attended top high schools, and another eight points were given to students who took an especially demanding AP and Honors curriculum. As with points for those from the Upper Peninsula, these preferences may have been race-neutral in theory, but in practice they were anything but. Because of intense racial isolation (and Michigan's schools are the most segregated in America for blacks according to research by the Harvard Civil Rights Project), students of color will rarely attend the "best" schools, and on average, schools serving mostly black and Latino students offer only a third as many AP and honors courses as schools serving mostly whites. So even truly talented students of color would have been unable to access those extra points simply because of where they live, their economic status, and ultimately their race, which is intertwined with both.

Then up to twelve points were awarded for a student's SAT score, which is itself directly correlated with a student's socioeconomic status, which in turn is highly correlated with race in a way that favors whites and disadvantages most students of color.

Four more points were awarded to students with a parent who attended the U of M: a kind of affirmative action with which the President is intimately familiar, and which almost exclusively goes to whites.

In other words, Michigan was offering twenty "extra" points to the typical black, Latino or indigenous applicant, while offering various combinations worth up to 70 extra points for students who would almost all be white. But while the first of these were seen as examples of racial preferences, the second were not, hidden as they were behind the structure of social inequities that limit where people live, where they go to school, and the kinds of opportunities they have been afforded. White preferences, by being the result of the normal workings of a racist society, can remain out of sight and out of mind, while the power of the state is turned against the paltry preferences meant to offset them.

To recognize just how blind so many white Americans are to the workings of white privilege, one need only consider the oft-heard comment by whites that "if I had only been black I would have gotten into my first-choice college." Such a statement not only ignores the fact that whites are more likely than members of any group, even with affirmative action, to get into their first-choice school, but it also presumes, as anti-racist activist Paul Marcus explains, "that if these whites were black, everything else about their life would have remained the same: that it would have made no negative difference as to where they went to school, what their family income was, or anything else."

But this ability to believe that being black would have made no difference (other than a beneficial one when it came time for college), and that being white has made no positive difference, is rooted in privilege itself: the privilege of not having one's intelligence questioned by books like The Bell Curve, or one's culture attacked as dysfunctional by politicians and so-called scholars; the privilege of not having to worry about being viewed as "out of place" when driving, shopping, buying a home, or attending the University of Michigan; the privilege of not being denied an interview for a job because your name sounds "too black," as a recent study discovered happens often to African American job-seekers.

So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought and died for equal opportunity.

Par - the more you type the more you're revealing that it seems you're quite angry, thinking blacks are receiving special treatment due to policies such as Affirmative Action.

Please read the articles I linked to. They specifically address your concerns and if you truly want to answers to your questions, they hold the answers.

FSeven wrote:

Par - the more you type the more you're revealing that it seems you're quite angry, thinking blacks are receiving special treatment due to policies such as Affirmative Action.

LOL, if I was angry FSeven, I would have done everything in my power to fight the decision. At that time I actually accepted it as an "admission of guilt" because I was white. I figured a full ride scholarship was more important for someone of a different color so I did what any non-racially biased, honorable person would do: Not accept that I couldnt go to school on someone else's dime and did it myself.

The more things you quote and write makes me think you have an agenda in this conversation. I am actually quite insulted with your statement of

FSeven wrote:

Surely they received much better treatment due to their color than if they were black. This point is incontestable.

. You dont even have the SLIGHTEST idea as to the circumstances nor the things my mother went through yet you firmly believe you know the whole story. Black and white, no shades of gray, you know best. Insurance cutting corners, doctors saving money, crowded offices which resulted in misdiagnosis, etc etc... my mother was killed due to negligence. So dont sit there in your holier-than-thou safety net of "being able to quote articles" thinking you know anything about every-single-issue in this country. Because that is the root of the problem.

Sorry for my angry reply but you don't know everything you think you do.

PAR

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:
FSeven wrote:

So while you and your parents may not have partaken in slavery or intended racism, whether you choose to accept it or not, you've all had your hands in the cookie jar. All whites have.

What about 1st generation white immigrants like myself?

P.S. BTW, do you ever venture up into North Jersey? We totally should meet up one day.

How easy is it for you to catch a cab?

Every time you drive your car, do you wonder if you'll be racially profiled and searched?

When you walk into a store and start browsing, do you wonder if you'll be perceived as a shoplifter? Do you ever notice store personnel shadowing you?

When another white person goes batsh*t crazy on the news - think McVeigh, the Unabomber, Dahmer, Colombine, Bernie Madoff, or just some white guy committing a simple crime - do you ever worry that you will be lumped in with them solely on the basis of your race, by others not of your race?

Grab any European and bring him over to America today and by the end of the week, I'd bet a years salary that he will have been the beneficiary of an unnoticed privilege that a middle-aged black man who is a citizen and has been in America all his life hasn't received.

I'm up in North Jersey all the time. I live in Bloomfield.

par wrote:

LOL, if I was angry FSeven, I would have done everything in my power to fight the decision. At that time I actually accepted it as an "admission of guilt" because I was white. I figured a full ride scholarship was more important for someone of a different color so I did what any non-racially biased, honorable person would do: Not accept that I couldnt go to school on someone else's dime and did it myself.

But Par, you said this:

Par wrote:

I had the chance for a full-ride scholarship to the University of Michigan a couple years out of high school because of my grades and extra curricular activities I was doing. I worked hard for that chance. Did I get it? No. Want to know why? Because I was white. That's EXACTLY what I was told.

So, instead of getting pissed and fighting the decision, I worked my @ss off and put myself through school a little later in life when I could actually do so. Its been 7 years since I graduated and I'm still paying my student loans. But as far as I can see, the system is screwed all the way around basically because of the color of one's skin.

Maybe it's just me but those two paragraphs seem very resentful. In that second paragraph especially, I was almost expecting to read, "If blacks would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps...".

So maybe I misinterpreted you. My perception was that it came off very angry and resentful.

par wrote:

You dont even have the SLIGHTEST idea as to the circumstances nor the things my mother went through yet you firmly believe you know the whole story. Black and white, no shades of gray, you know best. Insurance cutting corners, doctors saving money, crowded offices which resulted in misdiagnosis, etc etc... my mother was killed due to negligence. So dont sit there in your holier-than-thou safety net of "being able to quote articles" thinking you know anything about every-single-issue in this country. Because that is the root of the problem.

I'm not belittling your mothers' experiences. All I was saying is that while for white folks, your mothers' experiences with healthcare seems to be the exception rather than the rule, for blacks and folks of color, bad experiences with healthcare is just par for the course and is much more prevalent.

I don't think I know a lot about "every-single-issue" in this country. Definitely don't ask me about the economy for instance, but I do know more about racism and white privilege than the average bear.

FSeven wrote:

Maybe it's just me but those two paragraphs seem very resentful. In that second paragraph especially, I was almost expecting to read, "If blacks would just pull themselves up by their bootstraps...".

So maybe I misinterpreted you. My perception was that it came off very angry and resentful.

Yes you misinterpreted it. I tried pretty hard to emphasize that I was not mad, pissed, nor did I feel "obligated" to get that scholarship. I just accomplished my goal in a different manner.

FSeven wrote:

I'm not belittling your mothers' experiences. All I was saying is that while for white folks, your mothers' experiences with healthcare seems to be the exception rather than the rule, for blacks and folks of color, bad experiences with healthcare is just par for the course and is much more prevalent.

Yes you were. Well, maybe not my mother's experiences but my experiences and how I perceive them. You said specifically

FSeven wrote:

This point is incontestable.

You made it a point that I am mistaken. You are wrong.

I understand your POV and to be absolutely honest, I agree with you to a certain extent. Yes, MANY people in this country have no idea what others have gone through and they are happy in their ignorance. And that includes ALL colors, races, shapes and sizes.

PAR

FSeven wrote:

I don't doubt that your parents and grandparents worked hard but I can say with almost 100% certainty that they received benefits they did not earn simply because they were white. Do you at all, understand the concept that during the first half of the 20th century whites - this means your parents and grandparents - were able to accumulate assets and wealth while people of color largely were not able to? Did you even read the article I linked to?

Par's ancestors were also Italian, which would have subjected them to a whole different rainbow of discrimination when they arrived in the 1920's. (Indeed, some of that discrimination continues into today: My husband and I just moved into a new neighborhood, where I've witnessed some pretty insidious and mean-spirited anti-Italian resentment firsthand. The only thing I can liken it to are the old cranks in Georgia and South Carolina who speak in hushed tones about Jews and "the darkies", but at least those guys know there's something unacceptable about talking that way. People here don't even try to hide how much they hate Italians. I've never seen anything like it.)

What I'm saying is, African Americans weren't the only ones who experienced discrimination throughout history, even in the past 100 years. If we look into our family trees, I'd bet money that all of us have ancestors who, at some point or another, experienced gross inequity because of their skin-color, religion or ethnicity. (Myself, I'm Jewish, Russian, German and Native American. My family line is like a parade of pariahs.)

I think part of the failure of the modern-day diversity movement is that we've forgotten or ignored this fact, that we all share in this common experience. We only recognize or acknowledge discrimination that occurs to certain select groups--blacks, Jews, women, etc. Worse, our culture shoehorn these minorities into victim roles; not only are they the only ones allowed to publicly acknowledge their experiences and solicit apologies/regret/sympathy/etc., the idea of discrimination has so colored their cultural identities that it makes you wonder what had to be stifled so that this sense of victimhood could flourish.

There's all sorts of advantages in life. Race is just one of them.

I'm unbelievably lucky to have been born a white male to an upper middle class American family where both parents loved each other and my sister and I.

I agree with you that we need to do something about the inequality, but there are a lot of different things to tackle. Race, Gender, Class, Country, familial makeup, State/Province/What have you, City.

Each of those has a big impact in my quality of life. The most influential of those, by a HUGE margin, has been Class. Having money means that I got all sorts of advantages (like regular meals) that people all over the world don't have.

When we get to a point where people aren't starving to death all around us, I'll start worrying about putting lots of attention to whether racial minorities can flag down a taxi or not.

par wrote:
FSeven wrote:

stuff as well...

My main question is, because of the color of my skin, should I be "sorry" different than I am and should I be required to "do something" more than what I am simply because I am white.
PAR

The answer to your two part question is no and yes...

You should never be apologetic for the color of your skin...I'm mixed (black and white) and with that logic I should just be internally tormented...

as for the "yes"...I think that we can all agree that many barriers have been broken down in the past 40 to 50 years...Although the civil rights movement was a big part of that, most of the barriers were broken down by unsung hero's that were just regular joe's who didn't receive any press but showed up to work every day took one on the chin and came back for more the next day without complaint ready to take another...That attitude alone pushed down barriers and opened doors, not everyone was a Jackie Robinson but plenty of folks shared that same spirit....

A good friend and co-worker of mine (a third generation from freed slaves) tells the story of his father who as a young man was a sharecropper along with his father (a freed slave) through the Jim Crow era...As a common practice during that time they were cheated by the "system" and shorted seed in the spring and cheated weight (which equaled money) during the harvest...My friend's father who drove the mule on the family plot decided to join the Navy and through the years climbed the ranks to Chief...He said that when it was announced that he had made Chief (which was unheard of for a black man) all of the white Chiefs on the boat asked to be transferred because they were not going to work shoulder to shoulder with a black guy...My buddy asked him why would he stay in such a hostile environment were he wasn't wanted and his father said "because all I had to go back to was that mule" (very similar to the movie Men of Honor but with out the diving part)...By him staying and not becoming a victim of his own self pity he broke down barriers to make it better for his kids and he was not alone in that effort, countless other Black Americans did the exact same thing and still do to this day because despite what some people believe there are still barriers that need to be broken down...

To get back to the second part of your question, by me saying yes you are required to do more really means we are all required to do more...Just having a logical discussion about race instead of turning our backs to it is a great place to start because it's us the "regular joe's" who can make the biggest impact as long as we work together and keep an open mind about the discussion...

par wrote:

So, instead of getting pissed and fighting the decision, I worked my @ss off and put myself through school a little later in life when I could actually do so. Its been 7 years since I graduated and I'm still paying my student loans. But as far as I can see, the system is screwed all the way around basically because of the color of one's skin.

PAR

I can agree to that...There are times where we all (black and white) become victims of laws slanted towards one race or another...If we truly want a level playing field for everyone (even though some folks got a head start which was the purpose of laws like affirmative action), laws need to be rewritten to exclude anything that give advantages to one group over another but again that's where regular joe's come in since we're the ones who elect our government officials and although politicians rarely hear the regular folks, if there are enough of us voicing our concerns they would surely hear us...

KaterinLHC wrote:

I think part of the failure of the modern-day diversity movement is that we've forgotten or ignored this fact, that we all share in this common experience [of our ancestors having experiencing discrimination].

For me, it's the present-day discrimination that's most important, not whatever my ancestors may have experienced in the past. Sure, Italians and Irish had to deal with a lot of crap earlier in the century, but do they have those problems today? Not so much, even taking into account your neighborhood (which, by the way, was totally shocking to me. Where do you live?). Certainly nothing like what black people experience.

kaostheory wrote:

The most influential of those, by a HUGE margin, has been Class. Having money means that I got all sorts of advantages (like regular meals) that people all over the world don't have.

But, of course, race and class are closely correlated with each other. And even if you personally are mostly concerned with class, race issues are a huge part of what keeps the US from making much headway on class issues. It's very easy to divide and conquer the working class when you can pit white against brown against black.

Man, now I'm sounding like a Marxist.

jonstock wrote:
KaterinLHC wrote:

I think part of the failure of the modern-day diversity movement is that we've forgotten or ignored this fact, that we all share in this common experience [of our ancestors having experiencing discrimination].

For me, it's the present-day discrimination that's most important, not whatever my ancestors may have experienced in the past. Sure, Italians and Irish had to deal with a lot of crap earlier in the century, but do they have those problems today? Not so much, even taking into account your neighborhood (which, by the way, was totally shocking to me. Where do you live?). Certainly nothing like what black people experience.

Rochester, New York. For a place that so prides itself on its history of tolerance, and which fostered such forward-thinkers in the 1800's women's rights and abolitionist movements, there sure are a lot of people here who hate those dirty, lazy and uncontrollably angry Italians.

Katerin, aside from the name-calling, are those Italians denied anything tangible due to their heritage?

According to several studies (will cite if you ask) there are between 2 and 4 million cases of race-based housing discrimination against people of color EVERY YEAR. Not in 1920, but here, today, in the 21st century. And that, according to those studies, that discrimination costs the black community alone over $4 billion in lost assets and wealth. Hundreds of billions accumulated over just the last 2 generations alone.

We gloss over studies like that without really comprehending what it means. Whites can't fathom such a statement because it doesn't represent anything close to our reality - even for those Italians up by you who are given dirty looks. Do we understand what it feels like to have a real estate agent tell us to put away our family photos when they are trying to sell our home for fear that a white family might not want to buy the house if they knew a black family lived there before. Do we REALLY understand that discrimination or do we just know about it?

Do we REALLY understand that according to the Justice Department, black and Latino men are 2-3 times more likely than white men to have their cars stopped and to be physically searched by cops for drugs, even though white men, on the occasions when we are searched, are 4 times more likely to actually have drugs on us?

Do we REALLY grasp the gravity of that? Do we bother to take those facts from the Justice Department and combine them with data from the Center for Disease Control which states that only about 25% of all drug users in this country are black or brown yet they represent approximately 90% of those who in a given year will be incarcerated for drug possession and that whites, while 72% of the users, will be less than 10% of those locked up for drug possession?

We can know all these statistics and they won't mean a God-damned thing unless we really grasp the human consequence of such issues. Whites generally don't care to because it's not happening to us as a race. There's nothing at stake for us. At least on the surface. Our perpetual denial of the racial reality of this country is going to bear some rotten fruit for us in the near future and we will have no choice but to reap what we have sown. It is an inarguable inevitability that we will be the minority in this country - very likely within many of our lifetimes - and when that day comes, we're in for a rude awakening. Perhaps we should start praying that they, meaning non-whites, treat us better we've treated them as history has shown.

Do we REALLY understand the effects of the racialized structure of this country? Do we REALLY understand the toll it takes particularly on young children and their self-perception? Do we feel it like the children in the South Bronx that Jonathan Kozol wrote about in his book Amazing Grace: The Lives of Children and the Conscience of a Nation? Children who Kozol witnessed kneeling before bedtime and offering up the prayer, "God bless Mommy, God bless Nanny, God don't punish me because I'm black." By the way, this isn't some book from early 19th century America. Kozol wrote this book based on his experiences in the South Bronx in 1993.

Do we as white people truly feel the human consequence? Do we consider that these young children, by offering up such a prayer, must have come to some conclusion that God was white? And do we consider how differently the world must look like through the eyes of white children and black children when chances are, both most likely view God as being white? Do we really understand the effect of that on a human child's psyche?

Again, I don't doubt your Italian neighbors experience forms of prejudice and racism. But it's very superficial. Or at least of a very individualistic nature. It's not a widespread phenomenon that affects every Italian in every corner of this country. While the behavior is repulsive indeed, when an Italian is called a guinea or whatever epithet the bigot chooses, that's often the beginning and end of it. When a black hears a racial slur directed his way it's often the tip of a much larger iceberg, a tip beneath which lies an edifice capable of destroying lives and impeding opportunities.

There is also the issue of assimilation. Like my parents and grandparents, they were able to "assimilate into whiteness" when coming over to this country. So while they may have faced some bigotry in their local neighborhood, no one by and large was denying them housing loans due to their race. They weren't being told to drink at a different water fountain because of their skin color. They weren't denied voting rights because they were from Europe. Indeed, while they may have faced name-calling and fisticuffs based on their heritage, there was no potent institutional force denying them opportunity or the ability to accumulate wealth.

So whatever intolerance those Italians in Rochester face, I'm sure not a one of them would be willing to trade places with any black person.

Reparations is a racist concept. It's based on the assumption that there is ever anything we could do to "make up" for a grave injustice perpetrated upon a people. That implies that there's such a thing as a unified "black race" we can apologize to, and that every black person knows about it and accepts its judgment as final on all issues relating to race relations. Its purpose is to free us white Americans from our guilt.

The only way we can make up for slavery is if we make amends with each and every person affected negatively by it, one by one, until everyone is completely satisfied.

That said, the very act of trying has meaning. If we do something, anything, then even if it does nothing to undo the damage, the fact that we took action at all has to mean something.

In some ways, its permanency might be good for us. We can't just fix it. We can't sweep it under the rug. America once kept slaves. That's a mistake we need to own and learn from. African Americans have the right to be angry and Caucasians such as myself don't have the right to demand forgiveness, with the comfort it provides. At the very least, we deserve our guilt. We need it to remind us that this is not a post-racial society and we need to keep working toward the ideal of equality.

Because we screwed up. Oh how we screwed up...

FSeven wrote:

do you ever worry that you will be lumped in with them solely on the basis of your race,

Isn't that what you just did to Par because you know he is white? You immediately determined that he and his family must have had/done A, B & C simply because of his race.

jonstock wrote:
KaterinLHC wrote:

I think part of the failure of the modern-day diversity movement is that we've forgotten or ignored this fact, that we all share in this common experience [of our ancestors having experiencing discrimination].

For me, it's the present-day discrimination that's most important, not whatever my ancestors may have experienced in the past.

This is how I feel about things myself. To get things out of the way, I grew up in the

Upper Peninsula of the state: a rural and almost completely white area.

I'm about half German and a quarter Native American ( My great-grandparents came over in the 30's from Germany on my Mother's side, not sure about my Father's ). Do I feel like people owe me anything due to what's happened to my ancestors? No. Yes, there are many benefits that I can get because of my Native American heritage, but I don't feel like I'm entitled to it and I try to pass them up whenever I can. Why should I save 5cents on the gallon at certain gas stations if I show them my Native American card? ( which I let expire years ago ) Why should I get a free-ride through college? ( still have 10k worth of loans to pay off ) I didn't do anything to deserve these things except be born and I would feel guilty ( and have felt guilty ) taking anything of the sort as others do not have the same privilege that I do, which is something beyond their control.

Of course, saying all that, we can't just wave a wand and make everybody treat each other the same. We can't bring everybody out of poverty and give them a head start on life. It's just not feasible. Myself, I have not received any sort of racial descrimination that I can remember ( it helps that I look like a generic white boy ). I personally don't know what people that are oppressed every single day have to go through. I see the racial and class stereotypes re-enforced by the general public almost everyday down here, and it makes me sad that people just can't get over themselves and treat other people the same, no matter how they were born.

Sorry if that went on for a bit, trying to type this up during a fast lunch is a chore.

FSeven wrote:

Katerin, aside from the name-calling, are those Italians denied anything tangible due to their heritage?

Ever heard of Sacco and Vanzetti?

RE: Present day - Access to good schools, for one. This suburb has some of the worst schools in the county. And yes, I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I know of one person who experienced job-based discrimination here due to her Italian heritage. I'm not an expert in Italian-American ethnic relations, but I do know discrimination is rarely limited to just name-calling.

Again, I don't doubt your Italian neighbors experience forms of prejudice and racism. But it's very superficial. Or at least of a very individualistic nature. It's not a widespread phenomenon that affects every Italian in every corner of this country.

This is exactly my point: Dismissing the very real prejudice that other groups experience as somehow less important or "very superficial" compared to another form of prejudice undermines the whole point. Discrimination is wrong when it happens to any group.

More importantly: All of us have or know someone who has experienced some discrimination. That should be a uniting force, not an excuse to draw firmer lines in the sand, to point fingers at each other and say, "How could you ever understand my pain?" We should be saying to each other, "I've been discriminated against myself, so yes, I REALLY can understand what it's like. So let's not do it to each other anymore. Let's move on."

(One last point: Many Italians would disagree that the marginlization or stereotyping of Italians is not widespread. Quick: Think of a movie or TV character who's Italian--and who isn't a mobster or hitman.)

Ulairi wrote:
Time and time again, studies have demonstrated that, despite our claims to being a meritocracy and having tremendous social mobility, the actual ability to move from class to class is extremely limited.

are you sure about this? Most studies have shown that the United States is very mobile and that if you are poor now, in the future you ahve higher chances not to be.

I do come from a "strong" background. My father is a college President and my mother was (retired now) a professor. The norm is for everyone in my family to go to college, I grew up in a gated community in Northern California and had the ability to screw up and get back on track. But, my family wasn't even in the states until after world war 2, I'm second generation, I guess.

I'm not going to feel bad about the fact that I came from a background that allowed me to do well in life. I think we can make strides to help EVERYONE improve but having fake white guilt is just insulting to people who are suffering.

The numbers to which I am referring are pretty easy to find. I found them in the final chapter of Bienhocker's book The Origin of Wealth. He has it pretty heavily annotated for sources if you require them as well.

In any event, my point wasn't to stoke the fires of white guilt (a pretty useless emotion). My point (and Bienhocker's) was that facilitating upward social mobility is in all of our interests. I thought I made that clear in my last sentence. We really are a poorer society if the best opportunity available for the greatest financial mind of our generation is narcotics and incarceration.

KaterinLHC wrote:

(One last point: Many Italians would disagree that the marginlization or stereotyping of Italians is not widespread. Quick: Think of a movie or TV character who's Italian--and who isn't a mobster or hitman.)

IMAGE(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4117/charlesinchargeflatart.jpg)

(You have a point, but I couldn't resist.)

Touche, although I'm not sure that's any better.

KaterinLHC wrote:

This is exactly my point: Dismissing the very real prejudice that other groups experience as somehow less important or "very superficial" compared to another form of prejudice undermines the whole point. Discrimination is wrong when it happens to any group.

MattDaddy wrote:
FSeven wrote:

do you ever worry that you will be lumped in with them solely on the basis of your race,

Isn't that what you just did to Par because you know he is white? You immediately determined that he and his family must have had/done A, B & C simply because of his race.

Kinda fits eh?

KaterinLHC wrote:

More importantly: All of us have or know someone who has experienced some discrimination. That should be a uniting force, not an excuse to draw firmer lines in the sand, to point fingers at each other and say, "How could you ever understand my pain?" We should be saying to each other, "I've been discriminated against myself, so yes, I REALLY can understand what it's like. So let's not do it to each other anymore. Let's move on."

I think this is what the real issue is. And the only way to fix this issue is to not shove it under the rug, to understand the history and the implications, to respect each other at least to the point to where someone doesnt deserve the respect anymore AND, FINALLY, realize that it can never be fixed.

There will always be people who hate. There will always be people who hate to be hated. There will always be people who think they are "owed" something regardless of whether it happened to them, their ancestor or something they read in the paper. And finally, there will always be people who will manipulate all the other people and those on the sidelines.

The only thing we can do as an individual is live a life w/out ignorance and learn to accept that unless you explicitly play a role in the discrimination of another or explicitly play a role in IGNORING the discrimination of another, you can only do what you can do. At least that's what I believe.

PAR

MattDaddy wrote:
FSeven wrote:

do you ever worry that you will be lumped in with them solely on the basis of your race,

Isn't that what you just did to Par because you know he is white? You immediately determined that he and his family must have had/done A, B & C simply because of his race.

Actually, he didn't make any assumptions about Par's family. FSeven just gave examples of where his own family had advantages that other families didn't. Par and FSeven seem to be upset over the implication that one or the other should feel a certain way, but I didn't see any examples of assumptions around families.

Edit: Well, never mind, apparently Par DOES feel assumptions were made about him. I'm not sure where I saw them, aside from assuming his ancesters were also white, but I apologize if I'm making assumptions there, too.

Par, I think we're all talking about the same thing. Not ignoring discrimination. No one is saying we should feel guilty (especially not the original article, as it seems most here assume). It's saying we can not ignore discrimination, and part of not ignoring it is taking action.