NFL 2008-2009 Off-Season Post-Draft Catch-All

I don't mind the Pettigrew pick so much, as he's a serious blocker and adds to their line. I'm a firm believer in building the lines above all else, which is why I'm quite happy with the Jaguars responding to their collapse of a season last year with two offensive linemen and a defensive tackle as their first 3 picks, on top of their free agent offensive tackle signing.

I don't get Detroit's failure to draft a single guard - indeed, not even a single offensive lineman 'till round 7's Lydon Murtha, who is an agile tackle prospect who probably isn't beefy enough to play guard effectively. Jeff Backus and Gosder Cherilus, well, they're not my favorite tackle tandem in the NFL, but when you're coming from 0-16, they're enough to get by. But the interior line looks in desperate need of help.

I would've been OK with them taking Stafford (since they were hell-bent on doing it) and Pettigrew, and then taking Eben Britton or Ron Brace at the top of round 2, and sniffed around the guards in round 3.

They did at least take DT Sammie Lee Hill in round 4, a large tackle from a small school (like the Jags did with Terrance Knighton a round earlier) who I don't have much opinion on at this point, from lack of exposure. If they get a player out of him, it will be a desperately needed shot in the arm for their woefully underpowered line. But that payoff may be a little ways out.

According to Peter King's Twitter feed (I threw up a little in my mouth just typing that), Marvin Harrison might be retiring.

Rat Boy wrote:

According to Peter King's Twitter feed (I threw up a little in my mouth just typing that), Marvin Harrison might be retiring.

He's headed directly into Shaun Alexander retirement (aka "No one will sign me" retirement).

Embrace Twitter. And embrace Peter King. (Not literally)

I like draft chat.

You've got to get the big men early. "Early" varies by position (guards can come a tad later than the rest). When you look at left tackle, compared to most other positions in the NFL, the elite players are overwhelmingly early picks.

If you look at the top left tackles of the past decade or so: Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, Willie Anderson, Willie Roaf, Tony Boselli, perhaps even Joe Thomas and Jake Long given a few more seasons... not only are these guys all 1st round picks, every single one was a top 10 pick. Denver managed to get Ryan Clady last year at pick #12 and it was probably the steal of the draft, having a guy like that slide out of the top 10 (and yet we're still talking the top half of round 1). I don't think you can point to any other position in the NFL where that's true (quarterback falls apart right at the start with Brady, though at least 1st round QBs have been building up a much better track record lately).

Same goes, to a slightly lesser extent, with defensive tackles: you don't get many Albert Haynesworths, Tommie Harrises, Casey Hamptons, Richard Seymours, John Hendersons, etc. beyond round 1. Scouts like to say "you can't coach size" and the rest of the league's GMs aren't going to let talented big men slide. Even an undersized DE/DT "tweener" like Justin Tuck only falls down to round 3. There wasn't a single 6-6+, 310-330lb+ defensive tackle in this draft, in that "mountain of a man" mold of Haynesworth, Henderson, etc. Not one. There's fast WRs for teams like Oakland to drool over every single draft, but not one DT with that prototypical size - not even a late-round scrub. And other than the two Boston College tackles, Raji and Brace, there were only a few other guys in the whole draft that were in that 320+ pound weight class.

I can see why teams like the Jags and Lions took a shot on small school big men like Knighton and Hill in rounds 3 & 4: if you're going to get a legitimate "big man" DT beyond the first couple of rounds, you're going to have to manufacture one somehow - like small-school guys you cross your fingers and hope everyone else overlooked (and you hope they hold up with the jump in competition level). Speaking of which, those two represent basically the entire rest of the draft in terms of 320+ pound defensive tackles. San Diego's Vaughn Martin in round 4 (from Canada, more digging trying to find big man gold!) is the only other one, not counting some undrafted free agents.

*Legion* wrote:

I can see why teams like the Jags and Lions took a shot on small school big men like Knighton and Hill in rounds 3 & 4: if you're going to get a legitimate "big man" DT beyond the first couple of rounds, you're going to have to manufacture one somehow - like small-school guys you cross your fingers and hope everyone else overlooked (and you hope they hold up with the jump in competition level). Speaking of which, those two represent basically the entire rest of the draft in terms of 320+ pound defensive tackles. San Diego's Vaughn Martin in round 4 (from Canada, more digging trying to find big man gold!) is the only other one, not counting some undrafted free agents.

Vaughn Martin was somewhat big news up here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax2fmeiP74E

jowner wrote:

Vaughn Martin was somewhat big news up here.

I bet. I can't remember the last time a player was drafted directly out of a Canadian college. Apparently Martin is the first underclassman ever, and the highest since lineman Mike Schad in '86.

[quote]I like draft chat. [quote]

Yeah, it's kind of addictive.

You are absolutely right about the premium tackles on both sides of the ball. Teams should snatch them up, almost regardless of who they have on the roster.

I am looking for those big DT's to starting coming at more and more of a premium with more teams moving to the 3-4. With teams like the patriots using DT's out of the 4-3 to play DE in their scheme, the market is going to shift.

Good observation. Something I've been talking about here a lot here this offseason is the premium that 3-4 teams place on height at the DE position. If you look at the teams that have been running the 3-4 for years (as opposed to the teams trying to convert), you see a lot of 6-5, 6-6 DEs, and not a whole lot of guys shorter than that. The shorter, "bunker buster" penetrating DT that 1-gap 4-3 teams love to line up at 3-technique (the John Randle mold) really have no place on a 3-4 defensive line.

I think that's why we saw a guy like Peria Jerry never really have a chance to be taken very much higher than he was.

As the 3-4 becomes even more en vogue, I wonder if it's guys like this that we're going to start calling "tweeners".

gizmo wrote:

I agree that the kittens should have looked at interior line after deciding not to take a tackle in the first round. I can't help but think that in this draft they should have thought about one of the centers since there were so many quality ones available, giving them a guy who could play all 3 interior line spots.
Just for example: They could have gotten Antoine Caldwell in the third and Jamon Meredith at OT in the 4th. He has some work to do, but he is much closer to being ready to play than Murtha. Might have allowed them to shift one of their tackles to guard at some point. Put Backus and Cherilus beside each other and you have something to run behind.
Oh, and then they could have gotten Francois at DT later to help there as well.

Beyond that, I really don't see why a rebuilding team took a guy with the off the field issues that Aaron Brown has had. Getting a dynamic back who can work in the passing game and help as a returner makes sense, but why not go James Davis. He was never as productive as some would have liked in college, but he is murder in the open field and can really fly.

Sorry, enough about the lions. They are like a car wreck, just can't help but watch.

Okay - being a die hard Lions fan I can't help but comment. I will agree that I was surprised at the lack of drafting someone for the OL but free agency is a beautiful thing.

After signing Larry Foote yesterday, solid trades early in the off season and my boys picking the most talented athletes available in the draft (not just trying to randomly fill positions) I can see that Martin Mayhew and company have a plan which is something us Lions fans are not used to unless you fall back into the Wayne Fontes era (in which we had a plan but it wasn't a very good one).

Call me crazy but I see our new GM as more of the Ozzie Newsome (Ravens) type of guy in that he played the game and seems to know what positions we need to improve to gradually become a competitive team for the first time in almost 50 years. The Lions have revamped their entire organizational structure from the top down and as far as player's go I would be extremely shocked to see more than 4 starters return to the defense on opening day. Yes the o-line is a huge weakness that will hopefully be battened down with the help of free agency before training camp but if you think about the last 22 losses (in a row) less than a handful were complete blow-outs and many more were losses of 3, 7, 10, or 14 points meaning that if we are able to stop the opposing team from scoring on just one drive we give ourselves close to a 50% better chance of winning.

In the upcoming 2009 season Detroit will have one of the most talented line backing corps in the NFL with Adrian Peterson (OLB), Larry Foote (MLB) and Ernie Simms (OLB) not to mention our new set of corners (Buchanon & Henry) and a hard hitting reportedly "stud safety" (Delmas). Furthermore if the rumors are true Kevin Carter (DE) may be the next veteran to join the ranks of the blue and silver (although I'm not holding my breath).

We've already had the car wreak (it was more like a 8 yr train wreak) and finally got moved from the ICU; rehabbing is next and it will take a few seasons to remove the Matt Millen stench but, from the GM to the coaches, players and even fans the mentality is slowly changing in Detroit. We may not be a wildcard team but if we ruin a few other teams chances at playoff births (like the "Butt-Packers") this Lions fan will be more than satisfied.

Oh, the blind optimism of a Lions fan.

Mike Honcho wrote:

picking the most talented athletes available in the draft (not just trying to randomly fill positions)

This idea falls apart with the first pick of the draft. Make no mistake, taking Matt Stafford with pick #1 is filling a position, not taking the best available athlete.

As a Jags fan, you should be very happy. That was a good draft. If the 2 small school guys work out, it will be a great draft.

I agree that the kittens should have looked at interior line after deciding not to take a tackle in the first round. I can't help but think that in this draft they should have thought about one of the centers since there were so many quality ones available, giving them a guy who could play all 3 interior line spots.
Just for example: They could have gotten Antoine Caldwell in the third and Jamon Meredith at OT in the 4th. He has some work to do, but he is much closer to being ready to play than Murtha. Might have allowed them to shift one of their tackles to guard at some point. Put Backus and Cherilus beside each other and you have something to run behind.
Oh, and then they could have gotten Francois at DT later to help there as well.

Beyond that, I really don't see why a rebuilding team took a guy with the history that Aaron Brown has. Getting a dynamic back who can work in the passing game and help as a returner makes sense, but why not go James Davis. He was never as productive as some would have liked in college, but he is murder in the open field and can really fly.

Sorry, enough about the lions. They are like a car wreck, just can't help but watch.

In the upcoming 2009 season Detroit will have one of the most talented line backing corps in the NFL with Adrian Peterson (OLB), Larry Foote (MLB) and Ernie Simms (OLB) not to mention our new set of corners (Buchanon & Henry) and a hard hitting reportedly "stud safety" (Delmas). Furthermore if the rumors are true Kevin Carter (DE) may be the next veteran to join the ranks of the blue and silver (although I'm not holding my breath).

I didn't realize he was a linebacker now

Legion beat me to it, but I have to reiterate that Stafford was in no way the best player available. You could argue that their linebacker corps was already set and the actual best athlete (Curry) was not needed, but it doesn't excuse not drafting Monroe or Smith after that.

That being said, I do agree that it seems like the Lions are finally moving in the right direction. Who knows? Maybe they'll avoid injuries, pull a Falcons and make the playoffs.

Minase wrote:
In the upcoming 2009 season Detroit will have one of the most talented line backing corps in the NFL with Julian Peterson (OLB) *Fixed, Larry Foote (MLB) and Ernie Simms (OLB) not to mention our new set of corners (Buchanon & Henry) and a hard hitting reportedly "stud safety" (Delmas). Furthermore if the rumors are true Kevin Carter (DE) may be the next veteran to join the ranks of the blue and silver (although I'm not holding my breath).

I didn't realize he was a linebacker now ;)

Of all people a Seahawks fan should have known who I was talking about. Nice catch though

*Legion* wrote:
Mike Honcho wrote:

picking the most talented athletes available in the draft (not just trying to randomly fill positions)

This idea falls apart with the first pick of the draft. Make no mistake, taking Matt Stafford with pick #1 is filling a position, not taking the best available athlete.

Not with the idea that Larry Foote would be released by the Steelers; he said often after last season he wanted to be traded and showed a lot of interest in coming home to Motown way back in February.

We need more than just talented players, we need an identity and a team leader who can change the mentality of the others around him, a rookie linebacker (Curry - who in my meager opinion was the best player in the draft) wasn't going to give us that. Foote on the other hand is a proven winner, a motivator, has a mouth like a sailor and unselfishly plays hard for the guys around him.

Furthermore anyone that wants to come to an 0-16 team after winning a Superbowl is either highly motivated or seriously demented; either way that's a guy you want playing for your team. This was a planned exercise, Stafford won't start the season for us and may not even start until late in the year if at all.

garion333 wrote:

Oh, the blind optimism of a Lions fan. ;)

Yep - It's all I've got buddy!!! (35 years and counting)

Yep - It's all I've got buddy!!! (35 years and counting)

Good on you for being a true fan.

Here's to you getting your dream of watching your team move up to "spoiler" status this year. If they can pick up someone like Kevin Carter to give them something at DE, that would be a big step. Have to be careful with the free agency spending when you are starting a rebuild though.

Mike Honcho wrote:

We need more than just talented players, we need an identity and a team leader who can change the mentality of the others around him

The point is that you can't argue it both ways: either you're drafting the best available talent, or you're filling roster holes. Sometimes the two happen to line up, but the rest of the time, it's decision time.

Also, the "proven winner who can change the attitude of everyone else" idea is one of the most overblown notions in sports. Perennial losers are losers because they're not very good, not because they're just waiting for someone else's castoff linebacker to come in and teach everyone how to not be mopey losers.

(Same stuff Cardinals fans were spouting when Dennis Green became head coach. Here was a guy with 4 division championships and 8 winning seasons out of 10 in Minnesota, with whole crapload of playoff appearances - this guy "knows how to win" and he's going to come into Arizona and "teach them how to win". 3 losing seasons later, he was gone. What, did he not actually "know how to win" even though he had done so much of it in Minnesota? Of course not - the reality is that the "attitude" and "knows how to win" stuff is 100% garbage. A losing team is one that doesn't have enough talent, which describes the Lions for a long time now).

The "attitude" fantasy is one you only hear from fans of teams that are perennial losers. It's comforting to think that someone can come in and make everyone else play better, rather than face the grim reality of not having enough talent on the roster to compete. (I'm an LA Kings fan - I know all about the futility of an undertalented roster)

we need an identity and a team leader who can change the mentality of the others around him, a rookie linebacker (Curry - who in my meager opinion was the best player in the draft) wasn't going to give us that. Foote on the other hand is a proven winner, a motivator, has a mouth like a sailor and unselfishly plays hard for the guys around him.

Foote also isn't the caliber of athlete Curry is, he wasn't even a 3-down player on Pittsburgh's defense, was cut after his old team couldn't find someone willing to trade for him, and he was in such "high demand" that no team in the NFL saw fit to even suggest the possibility of a long-term contract, and he jumped on a 1-year deal from Detroit for not very much money (not reported how much but less than the $2.9 million salary he was set to earn in Pitt - likely on the order of $1 million). You're taking a decent linebacker and making something FAR too big out of him in your head. He's a short-term band-aid solution. He's not the heart and soul of a defense. If he steps in and performs as an adequate starter, he'll have done his job. If he can be an excellent starter, even better. But any team-changing ideas are far-fetched fantasy.

(Think about it - have you ever dealt with someone with a bad attitude? Notice how the person dragged down the attitudes of people around him/her? If there was anything to the "attitude" idea, it would be far more likely that the downers would drag down the newcomers like Foote, rather than the opposite. In fact, that's why some players are called "locker room cancers". Why don't all these good-attitude winners surrounding the "cancer" elevate him to their level? Because it doesn't work like that.)

If a "winner" could transform a locker room of losers, Dick Butkus wouldn't have retired without ever having gone to a playoff game.

This reminds of a conversation between Orel Hershisher and the guy he was calling the Mets and Phillies game with last night. Orel was asked if it was possible for a pitcher to be a leader. Of course he went through all the stuff about working to be involved with every facet and being a team player blah blah blah, and then came the rub.

"But you better be a superstar if you want guys to follow you"

I know I just brought baseball into a football thread, but it was a great quote and fits what we are talking about here. Foote is a team guy who reportedly is a good practice player and has shown that he can be a good part of a winning team. He is not a star, and is the 3rd mostly likely leader for that defense within just the linebacking corp. Aaron Curry would have been more likely to be a leader because he is a superior athlete at linebacker who is known for his intangibles. He is the guy who works hard enough that he forces everyone he is practicing against to be better and he will make the plays in games that will inspire his teammates.

I am not saying he should have been the pick because the Lions have fashioned a solid linebacking corp that includes 2 solid veterans, and one up and coming player with star potential. However, he is just a short term upgrade. My thought is that he can play while they find out if Zach Follett's strong-arm tactics are going to translate well to the NFL

gizmo wrote:

"But you better be a superstar if you want guys to follow you"

That's a good quote. Although there are non-superstars who emerge as leaders of the team - but the key word there is emerge. You can't sign a guy for one year, drop him on your roster, and say, "here, go LEAD. Now!". Players become that leader by building up the respect of the other guys in the locker room over a period of years, and that respect is something new guys joining the team quickly pick up on.

You can't manufacture leadership. Certainly not on a 1-year contract.

*Legion* wrote:
gizmo wrote:

"But you better be a superstar if you want guys to follow you"

"A bunch of relevant stuff"... Players become that leader by building up the respect of the other guys in the locker room over a period of years, and that respect is something new guys joining the team quickly pick up on.

Luckily for us nobody other than Backus a.k.a BrokeBack - cause he likes to give it to the QB from the blind side (who is by-the-way wearing out his welcome), Hanson (K) and a few others are the only players that have been with the Lions for "years", so the job is pretty much open...Comon' lets at least be honest; Detroit churns through players faster than working girls from the Philippines churn out U.S. Navy husbands and green cards...

*Legion* wrote:

You can't manufacture leadership. Certainly not on a 1-year contract. :D

True by normal standards, but a one year deal (possible free agency money next year) and the absence of any real team identity may be all the motivation he needs to assume that role, and if not then we're no worse for the wear (dude, we just went 0-16)...

Honestly I don't care who leads the team in the locker room or on the field, I just want to see my boys win a handful of games and possibly play the role of spoiler the last few games of the season and I think we may have acquired enough talent to do just that...

As a fan of the game I can understand your views, but as a Lions fan I must request that you don't hold my optimism against me; no one turns into a Lions fan, we are born into this unlucky and uncelebrated culture

As a fan of the game I can understand your views, but as a Lions fan I must request that you don't hold my optimism against me; no one turns into a Lions fan, we are born into this unlucky and uncelebrated culture

On the contrary, it is kind of refreshing to see someone stand by a team when it isn't easy.

Is disturbing how easily people jump on and off of bandwagons. I mean seriously, where were all the **** Patriot fans back in 85?

Mike Honcho wrote:

(dude, we just went 0-16)...

That's exactly why I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. The way to long-term success is to build a foundation, and that means not reaching for skill position players or luxuries like a hit-and-run safety, when you really need to grab those top line prospects that you can keep on your roster for a decade.

(I'd argue there was a distinct correlation between a Jaguars expansion franchise spending their first-ever draft pick on Tony Boselli, and the team being in the AFC Championship game in their second season with a largely rag-tag group of street free agents surrounding a budding foundation. I think when you're an 0-16 team, you consider yourself an expansion franchise and look towards blueprints like that.)

Nobody ever got fired by investing in keeping their QB upright.

As a fan of the game I can understand your views, but as a Lions fan I must request that you don't hold my optimism against me; no one turns into a Lions fan, we are born into this unlucky and uncelebrated culture ;)

Anytime you start going nuts on me, I'm going to shout names like Charles Rogers or Andre Ware or something about Billy Sims' knee.

Anytime you start going nuts on me, I'm going to shout names like Charles Rogers or Andre Ware or something about Billy Sims' knee.

hasn't he suffered enough?

*Legion* wrote:
Mike Honcho wrote:

(dude, we just went 0-16)...

That's exactly why I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. The way to long-term success is to build a foundation, and that means not reaching for skill position players or luxuries like a hit-and-run safety, when you really need to grab those top line prospects that you can keep on your roster for a decade.

(I'd argue there was a distinct correlation between a Jaguars expansion franchise spending their first-ever draft pick on Tony Boselli, and the team being in the AFC Championship game in their second season with a largely rag-tag group of street free agents surrounding a budding foundation. I think when you're an 0-16 team, you consider yourself an expansion franchise and look towards blueprints like that.)

Nobody ever got fired by investing in keeping their QB upright.

I think the Texans are a good reference for the other direction. They spent their No 1 overall pick on David Carr and he spent the majority of his career in Houston on his back.

A few years ago they were the first overall pick again. They could have taken Reggie Bush, who everyone thought was by far the best player available, but they took a defensive lineman. Granted Mario Williams hasn't been a huge stud, but he was the correct choice. Reggie Bush in Houston would have been a disaster. You build a franchise in the trenches.

*Legion* wrote:
Mike Honcho wrote:

(dude, we just went 0-16)...

That's exactly why I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. The way to long-term success is to build a foundation, and that means not reaching for skill position players or luxuries like a hit-and-run safety, when you really need to grab those top line prospects that you can keep on your roster for a decade.

HA! A decade, this ain't New England, Pittsburgh, Dallas, the Giants or some other reputable franchise; dude, this is Detroit and the Fords are extremely cheap, too cheap to pay the bucks it takes to keep star athletes for a long period of time...

Championship teams win championships, they don't just make it to the playoffs (that's something Redskin fans really don't understand ;))...The Fords don't want to build a championship franchise they just want to say they own a professional sports team. Some conspiracy theories even suggest that they bought the Lions to get back at the Unions (UAW) and the auto workers. No, we will never be a championship caliber organization until the Fords sell the team; Millen was only part of the problem.

*Legion* wrote:

(I'd argue there was a distinct correlation between a Jaguars expansion franchise spending their first-ever draft pick on Tony Boselli, and the team being in the AFC Championship game in their second season with a largely rag-tag group of street free agents surrounding a budding foundation. I think when you're an 0-16 team, you consider yourself an expansion franchise and look towards blueprints like that.)

Nobody ever got fired by investing in keeping their QB upright.

True and I agree with that. I was against the Stafford pick from day one and thought they should have and would have taken and OT (Smith, Smith, or Monroe). In fact my comment was "here we go again" with pick one and "Aww sh*t, wtf" with pick two. 2010 is ripe with talented QB's many whom I think will be better in the NFL than Stafford (Bradford, McCoy, possibly even Dan LeFevour from CMU) so my honest opinion is that they should have waited and possibly even drafted 2 O-Linemen in the first round. Nevertheless they seem to have a plan, defense also wins championships and although we're quite far off from championship talk the defense they put together should win a few games and may even get us out of the cellar in '09 (Hello Raiders )

*Legion* wrote:
Mike Honcho wrote:

As a fan of the game I can understand your views, but as a Lions fan I must request that you don't hold my optimism against me; no one turns into a Lions fan, we are born into this unlucky and uncelebrated culture ;)

Anytime you start going nuts on me, I'm going to shout names like Charles Rogers or Andre Ware or something about Billy Sims' knee. :twisted:

That's funny!!!
I actually have an old Charles Rogers jersey hanging in my office that I use as a motivational tool for my team. I always tell them that today you may be the top pick but if you can't follow through and are a bum, you'll eventually be released from the team.

This could be a pretty bad loss for the New York Jets.

Rat Boy wrote:

This could be a pretty bad loss for the New York Jets.

She's leaving the Gang Green meet-and-greet team to pursue acting and playing for the Minnesota Vikings.

Brett's mistress?

Mike Honcho wrote:

That's funny!!!
I actually have an old Charles Rogers jersey hanging in my office that I use as a motivational tool for my team. I always tell them that today you may be the top pick but if you can't follow through and are a bum, you'll eventually be released from the team. :twisted:

The Mike Williams jersey, of course, is above the fridge in the break room, and its message is, "you'll never amount to anything, you fat f*ck!"

Wow, apparently; guess they're just stocking up after last season's backfield depletion due to injuries...

If they could get a half season out of Torain and Buckhalter this season their ground game would be pretty solid...Of course Torain will be on the PUP for the first half of the year (unless of course he gets cut before then); and both of those guys are extremely injury prone (so is Lamont Jordan)...JJ Arrington or Walker may be their only healthy options by week 4...